Laminitis question.....

NiceChristmasBaubles

NiceChristmasBaubles

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Before I ask my question, please note that none of mine are showing any signs of laminitis. If they were I would have the vet out. But my two ponies are good doers and both have had lami before I got them, so I'm always on the look out and keen to learn more so I can do my best to prevent them having it.

So, how much is lami a black and white issue, i.e. one trigger and then they have it full blown or is it a grey issue and cumulative? One of my ponies has front shoes on only and has had snow balled in his front feet the past couple of days. He's been out say 6/7 hours. If this happens just a few days, is this as bad as happening every day for weeks on end, or does it need to be day in, day out to have an effect? If I pick his feet out every couple of hours (he's kept at home), will this stop the build up of pressure happening? Would far rather turn out than keep in as not able to ride at the moment.

Are there any books I can read? Really just want to find out more as I'm becoming a little neurotic and having my horses at home was meant to be relaxing! ;)
 
Laminitis in my experience is a very grey area. Mine has had it 3 or 4 times, now the last time there was no change in routine/maintenance/anything else it just happened. Just one word of warning I have been told not to turn mine out of frozen grass at all as this is a known cause of laminitis although the scientific reasons behind it are not yet understood. Good luck I hope you can keep yours laminitis free.
 
Jo C said:
Laminitis in my experience is a very grey area. Mine has had it 3 or 4 times, now the last time there was no change in routine/maintenance/anything else it just happened. Just one word of warning I have been told not to turn mine out of frozen grass at all as this is a known cause of laminitis although the scientific reasons behind it are not yet understood. Good luck I hope you can keep yours laminitis free.
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mollylolly said:
it is very much a grey area, Stress was the cause of my older horses laminitis.
frosty pasture, very short grass also can be a trigger.
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Thanks for your answers. I guess I just have to chance my luck. I really don't want to keep them in full time, for one thing they will both put on weight, and if I restrict their diet I then have to worry about colic, especially with my sec A. It's a bit like kids, you can wrap them in cotton wool and keep them indoors, but what sort of life is that? Perhaps I should just get rid of all the animals and take up knitting! :)
 
We have a couple that have suffered Laminitis in the past, one through just being too fat and started with it after a heavy frost and the other only 3 when he got it, perfect weight but was racing around like a loony on hard ground and he came down with it a couple of days later. His was due to the stress caused to his laminae by the racing around. I am now lucky enough to be able to recognise signs early on and I keep a very close eye on pulses. If you have to turn out onto frosty grass then try and put a little hay out to keep them busy and off the grass, ours live out but have access to hay at all times when frosty/snowy and have their pulses checked every day. I do suspect that many problems are labelled as lami, we assume that they are because of feed but laminitis just means inflammation of the laminae for whatever reason. It is a horrible illness though and very scary to deal with.
 
hch4971 said:
We have a couple that have suffered Laminitis in the past, one through just being too fat and started with it after a heavy frost and the other only 3 when he got it, perfect weight but was racing around like a loony on hard ground and he came down with it a couple of days later. His was due to the stress caused to his laminae by the racing around. I am now lucky enough to be able to recognise signs early on and I keep a very close eye on pulses. If you have to turn out onto frosty grass then try and put a little hay out to keep them busy and off the grass, ours live out but have access to hay at all times when frosty/snowy and have their pulses checked every day. I do suspect that many problems are labelled as lami, we assume that they are because of feed but laminitis just means inflammation of the laminae for whatever reason. It is a horrible illness though and very scary to deal with.
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Thanks for this. Depending on the forecast for the day I either wait till a little while after the frost has gone or put hay/horsehage (high fibre) out. But my sec A insists on hunting out grass even under the snow. I've had him nearly 11 years and he hasn't had lami with me, but feel I can never be too careful. Perhaps I should get in to the habit of checking the pulse daily. Do you do yours am or pm? Are they different at different times of the day (i.e. mine are in at night out during the day so guess the pulse may be different). I really want to be able to pick it up if they've got it before it becomes very noticeable as by then a lot of damage will be done.
 
Sorry about that sarcastic comment up there :o
Friend just got a fat section c, and wont listen when i tell her that shes being stupid but having him on conditioning feed- she says his coat isnt shiny enough, yes dear, that would be because its winter and his coat is long and hairy :(

But also, if you know how you horse stands, then you can notice if it starts leaning back even slightly- this can be another early sign if you know what your looking for. They will lean back obviously when they have it. They will usualy only lean back a tiny tiny bit, or will shift weight on their back legs frequently when theyre getting it. A pony i used to help with never really did the whole pulse thing, but her owner knew her so well that she would be able to tell if she was starting to get it just by looking at her. Even someone who is very experienced with laminetic ponys didnt recognise it because she didnt know the pony. So if i were you, id just watch them standing in the field or in their stables, and get to know how often they shift weight and how far back there legs are. Then you are likely to notice any changes as soon as they start to happen, rather that waiting until they are obviously uncomfortable. Also at this stage, before they are in any pain, its possible to manage it so that it doesnt get any worse, and you can get rid of it before a vet is needed. I know that the horses needs come before money, so if a vet needs to be called then a vet needs to be called, but if its avoidable and can be gotten rid of early then im sure anyone would rather spend the money on carrots than a big vets bill!
 
I tend to check evenings when I have more time but often check in the morning as well whilst I am doing leg checks, they are all used to me groping around their fetlocks, bless them! They are all very different but I have got used to what is normal for each one, we had to put haylage rather than hay in with one group last week and the heaviest one became cresty and pulses went up slightly within a couple of days, they are now back on hay as the haylage is obviously just too much for them at the moment but they will be fine on it later through the winter. We have Section A's too, 3 of them, if yours hasn't had an attack in 11 years then you are obviously managing them well. I would probably check pulses morning and evening if I were you to start so that you can see what is normal before/after turnout as I am not sure whether or not that will make a difference, I don't see why it should as raised pulses are a sign that something is amiss but I am far from being an expert and it could change the feel of them.
 
hch4971 said:
I tend to check evenings when I have more time but often check in the morning as well whilst I am doing leg checks, they are all used to me groping around their fetlocks, bless them! They are all very different but I have got used to what is normal for each one, we had to put haylage rather than hay in with one group last week and the heaviest one became cresty and pulses went up slightly within a couple of days, they are now back on hay as the haylage is obviously just too much for them at the moment but they will be fine on it later through the winter. We have Section A's too, 3 of them, if yours hasn't had an attack in 11 years then you are obviously managing them well. I would probably check pulses morning and evening if I were you to start so that you can see what is normal before/after turnout as I am not sure whether or not that will make a difference, I don't see why it should as raised pulses are a sign that something is amiss but I am far from being an expert and it could change the feel of them.
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When I was wondering whether they were different I was thinking that maybe they would have a slightly raised pulse if they had been exercising, rather than just standing in the stable. I think I will start taking them so I can work out what is normal for each of them. My arab x is new to me (since August) and I guess the one I am most concerned about as I am still working his character out. I'm fairly up to speed on the sec A, mainly because he has a tendency for spasmodic colic (had 3 or 4 times in the time I've had him) so am constantly counting droppings etc (a sad obsession!) and should hopefully pick up if he is a little off colour. I use the high fibre horsehage (lami friendly, per the label anyway) when they are out as soaked hay would freeze in no time.
 
ridersince2002 said:
Sorry about that sarcastic comment up there :o
Friend just got a fat section c, and wont listen when i tell her that shes being stupid but having him on conditioning feed- she says his coat isnt shiny enough, yes dear, that would be because its winter and his coat is long and hairy :(

But also, if you know how you horse stands, then you can notice if it starts leaning back even slightly- this can be another early sign if you know what your looking for. They will lean back obviously when they have it. They will usualy only lean back a tiny tiny bit, or will shift weight on their back legs frequently when theyre getting it. A pony i used to help with never really did the whole pulse thing, but her owner knew her so well that she would be able to tell if she was starting to get it just by looking at her. Even someone who is very experienced with laminetic ponys didnt recognise it because she didnt know the pony. So if i were you, id just watch them standing in the field or in their stables, and get to know how often they shift weight and how far back there legs are. Then you are likely to notice any changes as soon as they start to happen, rather that waiting until they are obviously uncomfortable. Also at this stage, before they are in any pain, its possible to manage it so that it doesnt get any worse, and you can get rid of it before a vet is needed. I know that the horses needs come before money, so if a vet needs to be called then a vet needs to be called, but if its avoidable and can be gotten rid of early then im sure anyone would rather spend the money on carrots than a big vets bill!
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Thanks for this, I do try to remember to check their stance when I bring them in, in the same way I check they walk out sound across the yard morning and night (not just for lami). Hopefully as they are at home I would see a change pretty quickly, although I'd really like to pick it up before it bacame obvious.
 
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ridersince2002 said:
Sorry about that sarcastic comment up there :o
Friend just got a fat section c, and wont listen when i tell her that shes being stupid but having him on conditioning feed- she says his coat isnt shiny enough, yes dear, that would be because its winter and his coat is long and hairy :(

But also, if you know how you horse stands, then you can notice if it starts leaning back even slightly- this can be another early sign if you know what your looking for. They will lean back obviously when they have it. They will usualy only lean back a tiny tiny bit, or will shift weight on their back legs frequently when theyre getting it. A pony i used to help with never really did the whole pulse thing, but her owner knew her so well that she would be able to tell if she was starting to get it just by looking at her. Even someone who is very experienced with laminetic ponys didnt recognise it because she didnt know the pony. So if i were you, id just watch them standing in the field or in their stables, and get to know how often they shift weight and how far back there legs are. Then you are likely to notice any changes as soon as they start to happen, rather that waiting until they are obviously uncomfortable. Also at this stage, before they are in any pain, its possible to manage it so that it doesnt get any worse, and you can get rid of it before a vet is needed. I know that the horses needs come before money, so if a vet needs to be called then a vet needs to be called, but if its avoidable and can be gotten rid of early then im sure anyone would rather spend the money on carrots than a big vets bill!
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mmmmmmm..........or you spend the money on a vet, a new one in a new area, and they tell you the pony has laminitis, just leave it on this bit of yard, with lots of very green grass around the edges and hardcore in the middle - thank god we had just had the episode with the other pony or it is likely I would have killed by youngster had I followed the advice!!
 
to me its so so grey - baby is such a good doer and i live on nerves during spring and autumn (limited riding due to sight) and I cant keep her in when frost down as it took along time for her to settle in a stable and cany keep her in out of her routine - so I watch and monitor her - she as no rugs on at all in winter but she is having 2 slices of hay extra at nightas snow on ground. Best person to talk to is your vet. Book them to come out and discuss your horses/ponies wth them. You can read to much sometimes and it becomes a mist but your vet will advise you. I have had my vet out for pure advice a couple times with babies sight and we have now a brilliant realtionship - me and vet i mean lol
 
watch the way they walk and check for any rocking motion heel down (exaggerated) first and a roll through the foot, that is immediate vet and farrier call as that is pedal bone movement. xx

oh btw im obsessed with pooh - the number done and the composition of it - i am a pooh coniousser!
 
Look, I'm not trying to be a scaremonger... but in my experience it depends on how good you've been.

They say it's the modern curse of the devil on women. (Let's face it, how many men do you know who has a horse and has one with Lami???) See I knew it ladies, no-one.

Last time my horse had it, it was the parchiest of the summer months, he was as bony as an empty hat rack and 'feckker, he got it. before that, all I did was trot to the pub less than a mile away, got on and would he move??? No, the little bugalug stood like a frozen flamingo in an arctic lake. no amount of sherry could move him. That was the most expensive pint of Old Speckled Hen I ever bought.

So, if it's not battling your anorexic daughter, it's battling your clinically obese equine..

Life isn't fair.

And now, It's 'fekkin' freezin' and my nag nearly pulled my arm out of it's socket while I was routinely checking his pulses!!!! (You have to do that religiously you know and wobble his crest so they say)
 
babymare said:
to me its so so grey - baby is such a good doer and i live on nerves during spring and autumn (limited riding due to sight) and I cant keep her in when frost down as it took along time for her to settle in a stable and cany keep her in out of her routine - so I watch and monitor her - she as no rugs on at all in winter but she is having 2 slices of hay extra at nightas snow on ground. Best person to talk to is your vet. Book them to come out and discuss your horses/ponies wth them. You can read to much sometimes and it becomes a mist but your vet will advise you. I have had my vet out for pure advice a couple times with babies sight and we have now a brilliant realtionship - me and vet i mean lol
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That sounds like me! I think once I have got through a whole year of having them at home I will feel better, but having got through the summer, then the late flush of grass I was hoping for a worry free time. Now the snow/ice/frost brings its own issues. Perhaps I should log out of HHO and just get on with it. There is a lot to learn on here, but it doesn't half make you paranoid about things as well! I've had horses/ponies for over 30 years, and always been pretty lucky, but would feel very bad if I missed something I shouldn't. Good idea about chatting to the vet.

mollylolly said:
watch the way they walk and check for any rocking motion heel down (exaggerated) first and a roll through the foot, that is immediate vet and farrier call as that is pedal bone movement. xx

oh btw im obsessed with pooh - the number done and the composition of it - i am a pooh coniousser!
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Thanks, that's helpful. I will add that to the 'making sure they have 4 working legs' check I do morning and night! There was one night in the summer when they came in late (around 11pm) and I was up till 1am making sure a poo was done! Hubby thought I had gone mad! :D
 
We have a pony with Cushings so she's very susceptible to laminitis but we have luckily been able to manage it. No expert but from what i gather with frozen grass its the changes in the sugar content what causes the problems. Obivously not during winter but best to have them out at nights rather than days as no sun so grass doesn't produce as much sugar. Also carrot/apples have high sugar content.
 
tallyhohoho said:
Look, I'm not trying to be a scaremonger... but in my experience it depends on how good you've been.

They say it's the modern curse of the devil on women. (Let's face it, how many men do you know who has a horse and has one with Lami???) See I knew it ladies, no-one.


Ha, I do!! And repeated attacks at that, to the point that if he had another then chances were he would be PTS! The reason, his insistence on feeding cereals, at ridiculous levels, just because it is what he has always done! Needless to say, the horse has not had an attack since his owner became my OH and we 're-educated' (kicking and screaming) him about how to feed overweight horses!!
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hch4971 said:
tallyhohoho said:
Look, I'm not trying to be a scaremonger... but in my experience it depends on how good you've been.

They say it's the modern curse of the devil on women. (Let's face it, how many men do you know who has a horse and has one with Lami???) See I knew it ladies, no-one.


Ha, I do!! And repeated attacks at that, to the point that if he had another then chances were he would be PTS! The reason, his insistence on feeding cereals, at ridiculous levels, just because it is what he has always done! Needless to say, the horse has not had an attack since his owner became my OH and we 're-educated' (kicking and screaming) him about how to feed overweight horses!!
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Oh dear oh dear - see, it always finds a woman somehow!!! I hate it!!!
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OK, I have limited knowledge of lami, had a super horse that had the symptoms, but he had pedal degenerative disease. Poor boy, PTS nov 28th 2009. My question is can it happen at any age?? Just wondering, as I have 2 yearlings/nearly 2 yr olds, that are very good doers, just wondering if I should be keeping an eye!!!!!
 
I have two who are prone to laminitis, and now wonder if by feeding them to well ,when they were young has made them more prone to it now.
 
fitzaud2 said:
OK, I have limited knowledge of lami, had a super horse that had the symptoms, but he had pedal degenerative disease. Poor boy, PTS nov 28th 2009. My question is can it happen at any age?? Just wondering, as I have 2 yearlings/nearly 2 yr olds, that are very good doers, just wondering if I should be keeping an eye!!!!!
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Oh yes at any age, it's not choosy by any means. I think horses are fed too well and good hoofcare should never be foregone whether shod or unshod.

My theory, apart from the devil, is that in the past e.g. Victorian times horses that showed signs were pts straight away, no-one had the time nor the inclination to bring a laminitic back to health. Although it wasn't often as most horses had the poorest forage (the best were saved for meat animals) and were worked hard.

Nowadays, we care much more but also generally they work much less and are fed phenomenally good food! We can afford to bring one back to health and many are doing so. This means it's become an epidemic. It does not help that the Humdinger was voted top cob at HOYS - he's obese with fat lumps everywhere, not show condition. So, now you have EXPERTS picking out fat horses to give rossetes to - gives us all something to aspire to at home... every horse looks thin compared to that.

I think of laminitis as human diabetes. Insulin resistant & overweight in humans puts you in prediabetes category and you may be put on metformin. Metformin is now being trialled in horses. Hi fibre, low sugar (that includes carbs) diet, condition score lower than 3. Diet and skinnify the horse by whatever means! And good luck - oh and no insurance company will want to touch you once you've claimed on it and it doesn't end there, it can keep coming back.

Insurers won't insure you if you've claimed for it previously. Which is clever as they know it can come back and bite you all the horses life.
 
I agree its a very grey area. My boy now diagnosed with Cushings has had Laminitis twice - first time was acute in all 4 feet and that was due to someone thinking it was ok to feed my pony cut grass in abundance, took a very long recover, second time was why i got him tested for a metobolic/cushings issues as he was stabled last winter and had a very random but small bout of it. I now take every precaution i can - maybe OTT but i know that one more bout (due to bad rotation of pedal bone) would spell the end for him. I dont turn out in snow - have been advised that snow clogged in feet is bad for the circulation, he is fed steamed/soaked hay, is on a fantastic feed - Simple Systems (Pura Beet and Lucie nuts - fantastic for Laminitis prone/cushings sufferers) and have managed to keep him on a happy medium. For me its all about routine, any new paddock change - muzzle goes on during day and hes in at night. All you can do is your best to try and keep it at bay - but sadly sometimes what you do just isnt enough, its incredibly frustrating. And the worst thing i have seen is people thinking because their pony isnt fat or hasnt had it before ior is a good doer - that they are ok.. its not just fatty ponies that get it.
 
sb123 said:
We have a pony with Cushings so she's very susceptible to laminitis but we have luckily been able to manage it. No expert but from what i gather with frozen grass its the changes in the sugar content what causes the problems. Obivously not during winter but best to have them out at nights rather than days as no sun so grass doesn't produce as much sugar. Also carrot/apples have high sugar content.
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Ah see the old "turn out at night".. did you know its also the dew in the early mornings on the grass that is also lethal. To be unless you are going to bring your horse in at 3am - it doesnt make an ounce of difference - personally i swear by muzzles.
 
I've had horses all my life and have had my mare for 8 years but in March she came down with laminitis. I knew something was wrong but she didn't have the stance or pulses and when the farrier came out he did a number of test and she didn't react. I kept her in the stable and 2 days later she had that horrible stance - what a horrible 5months I went through, thought I was going to loose her at one point. She seems to be ok now (as I touch wood) I started to ride her a couple of months ago and we are in a strict routine.

I weigh and soak her hay and feed her 1.5 of her bodyweight, she has a scoop of Happy Hoof with magnesium morning and night and is stabled at night. I don't turn her out until the frost has lifted and she is still muzzled for 4-5 hours of grazing. I don't turn her out on thick snow as my farrier advised me not to. I do check her every morning and night and I am paranoid as it is horrible.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I agree that complacency seems to be the biggest danger. I think most people understand about the sudden reaction to lush pasture etc. But as bensababy said it doesn't just hit the fat ponies. In fact I would guess that there are no horses that could never get it, just those who are prone to it more than others.

I'm fairly happy with my ponies' weight. The arab x I think is pretty spot on, you can feel, but not see his ribs. The sec A could do with losing a little - I have to 'poke' him pretty hard through all the fluff to feel his. ;) I can't really cut down his food intake any more, he already has very little and it's mainly fibre, and I have to watch out as he can get spasmodic colic. But once I can start working him again it should be better.

I think we all just need to be very diligent about watching for the early signs. I will try to incorporate the digital pulse check in my hoof picking routine. Lotty, when you said you knew something was wrong, what was it?
 
nikicb said:
Thanks for all the replies. I agree that complacency seems to be the biggest danger. I think most people understand about the sudden reaction to lush pasture etc. But as bensababy said it doesn't just hit the fat ponies. In fact I would guess that there are no horses that could never get it, just those who are prone to it more than others.

I'm fairly happy with my ponies' weight. The arab x I think is pretty spot on, you can feel, but not see his ribs. The sec A could do with losing a little - I have to 'poke' him pretty hard through all the fluff to feel his. ;) I can't really cut down his food intake any more, he already has very little and it's mainly fibre, and I have to watch out as he can get spasmodic colic. But once I can start working him again it should be better.

I think we all just need to be very diligent about watching for the early signs. I will try to incorporate the digital pulse check in my hoof picking routine. Lotty, when you said you knew something was wrong, what was it?
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The warning signs i generally get with mine when hes bordering on it - cresty neck, now hes diagnosed Cushings - his fat is stored in his haunches and neck. The fat isnt always belly related. Mine also had a swollen sheath too. The most frustrating thing i seem to see at alot of shows the last few years is alot of animals "well covered" ie - OBESE. but this seem to be in favour with alot of judges, sad times when a horse that looks like a Rhino is celebrated.
 
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