Laminitis surge

Lack of work I think. Everyone is too busy.

For us we had no.1: reaction to alfalfa (mid winter, underweight horse…). And no.2: some weird old age thing that seems to be progressive and the vets cannot figure out.
 
To add to all the comments , looking at what mine do in the day, I can see them from my windows, having somewhere to 'go' that is different and perhaps mix of ages, gets them to move around more. I have a track that goes between two areas of grazing and they will often canter down the track for no obvious reason. I have one that always moves the others on, if you want something to lose weight, you put him in the mix,
I know there is a long term shortage of grazing, but keeping horses in rectangle paddocks in pairs, where they stand around in perceived safety is perhaps counterproductive. Even the old one like a good canter and buck in their herd and I have never had an injury, probably because they have certain level of natural fitness
 
Patterdale said:
Lots of horses and ponies are fat now. People have an obsession with constantly feeding them. How many times do you see a fat pony on a bare paddock (great), but with some weary red faced woman taking it 76 carefully measured and soaked haynets each day to ensure it has constant food, then wondering why it’s still fat (facepalm)?

They need to be kept hard and worked hard to stay slim, something not many people seem prepared to do. My kids ponies spend much of their time on a large bare paddock without hay, and with not much growing to eat at all. They are all slim, healthy, forward and with zero symptoms of ulcers.

I have relented this week and I’m feeding them some hay as we’ve had no rain for a month now and they’re just standing on brown dead grass. But they’re not fat. If they were, I wouldn’t feed them drought or no.

When people can stop feeding fat animals constant hay and hard feeds (oh it’s just a bit of balancer, he’d die without it) then the problem will be solved, but I can’t see that happening.
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I suppose lack of fibre = gastric ulcers hence the constant giving of hay
 
Birker2020 said:
I suppose lack of fibre = gastric ulcers hence the constant giving of hay
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Yes this is always the rationale given, however I think it’s a load of balls personally. Horses in the wild do not eat constantly, as in 24/7. And they do not eat standing still with a constant supply of food under their noses. They move around constantly, and eat crap grass when they get it.
They are absolutely trickle feeders, however this does not mean a constant trickle of full mouthfuls of hay directly down their necks.

Also I think the small risk of gastric ulcers is preferable to the huge risks of being obese.

And another thing about gastric ulcers - how normal are they? They are found in lots of non-symptomatic horses just because scoping is now more prevalent.

Constantly feeding fat horses based on the hypothetical and unproven risk of a condition we don’t know much about, or whether they’re normal to some degree in horses, is a load of rubbish.
 
Patterdale said:
Yes this is always the rationale given, however I think it’s a load of balls personally. Horses in the wild do not eat constantly, as in 24/7. And they do not eat standing still with a constant supply of food under their noses. They move around constantly, and eat crap grass when they get it.
They are absolutely trickle feeders, however this does not mean a constant trickle of full mouthfuls of hay directly down their necks.

Also I think the small risk of gastric ulcers is preferable to the huge risks of being obese.

And another thing about gastric ulcers - how normal are they? They are found in lots of non-symptomatic horses just because scoping is now more prevalent.

Constantly feeding fat horses based on the hypothetical and unproven risk of a condition we don’t know much about, or whether they’re normal to some degree in horses, is a load of rubbish.
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Yes I agree, they walk up to 15 km a day for food.
 
Are there more horses about nowadays that can't be exercised for any number of reasons but which are still cherished by their owners?
 
I’m an old school used to ride every day and had a lovely slim horse. Now I have two who are predisposed to laminitis and EMS and rarely ride because of a knackered back. They aren’t old and will end their days with me but one is arthritic so the solution has been in summer to put them on a track with forage which equates to their weight and it has kept them both slim and active as they have to forage for their food. There are always solutions to problems, sometimes you have to think outside the box.
 
Lack of work definitely and increase in leisure riders riding maybe 1 or 2 times a week and the culture of giving ready mixed feeds with lots of added sugar ect that a horse does not need in many ways it was easier to feed a horse what it needed when straights were more the norm
 
honetpot said:
To add to all the comments , looking at what mine do in the day, I can see them from my windows, having somewhere to 'go' that is different and perhaps mix of ages, gets them to move around more. I have a track that goes between two areas of grazing and they will often canter down the track for no obvious reason. I have one that always moves the others on, if you want something to lose weight, you put him in the mix,
I know there is a long term shortage of grazing, but keeping horses in rectangle paddocks in pairs, where they stand around in perceived safety is perhaps counterproductive. Even the old one like a good canter and buck in their herd and I have never had an injury, probably because they have certain level of natural fitness
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I don't have an option to make a track where I am, but one of the reasons for moving to the yard I am at is that the fields are big, and they are in nice stable herds instead of pairs. The youngest in our herd is 4, mine is the eldest at 16/17 and there is a lot of movement in the day, including a good charge or two up the big hill.

I think the postage stamp paddocks with no trees/hedges or anything to provide variety, and horses just standing about in pairs in them are just depressing. We have some at the RDA I volunteer at (which broke up a lovely big field) and the ponies in them just don't move much at all.
 
My one who isn't ridden has piled on weight in just 4 weeks. She's hand walked 5 times a week a couple of miles but is a french breed historically used for meat and is definitely showing you'd get a lot of sausages for not a lot of feed. Farrier said yesterday she's slimmer than many he's seen as I was apologising for the blubber.

I find it much, much harder to manage the out of work ones.

The two I know who have recently come down with laminitis were both cobs who came out of winter too fat. One has an owner with health issues and he's on ex dairy livery which won't have helped. The other owner is the type who will always have a round bale in the field because she's worried about 24:7 access to forage. She was horrified mine were getting their hay ration put out am/pm in winter and if they ate it quickly then tough.

I do think this spring has been odd though. My grass growth has been phenomenal - even the field that never gets much on it is above knee level. Then we went without any rain since the coronation weekend so it's likely stressed too.
 
I'm another one with horses not in work, and trying to manage with what I have got. Me and the nags are non ridden due to health issues (new boy was bought last month for peanuts because he can't be ridden, so that was known, still trying to come to terms with the youngster's and my own diagnosis), and we livery on a dairy farm. I asked for the horrible scrubby end of a field for my summer grazing that no one wanted (extra bonus being it's massive!), and promptly tracked it off, much to the bafflement of everyone else (I'm already considered weird, not riding, and I don't rug in winter, don't feed "correctly", as in they have straw chaff to carry meds, and that is it!)
Good points: the new lad has lost some weight in the month and a bit I've had him, we can see shoulders and hips now, so it's going the right way. Madam is slimming a little too, I didn't like how much she carried out of winter due to lush cattle grazing, but it is coming off. Farrier comment how he sees others "in work" who are fatter and he sees progress each time he comes out, so that's a relief it's not me being wishful.
Bad points: I am worried about the grass going bonkers if we ever get rain and undoing the progress made (historically well fertilised fields, when it grows, the grass is too good). I am hyper aware my two aren't worked, as much as I have encouraged movement on the track, I know they could still do more. I am planning one building us all up to do more slowly, but worried I will never be able to "work" them enough in hand.
 
My observations are that most people I know worry about their horses being overweight and at risk of laminitis all the time. Most actively try to reduce that risk through a variety of measures such as muzzling, strip, grazing, restricting turn-out, exercising as much as possible but still struggle to keep their horses slim.

Most of us on livery yards are not in control of our grazing or turn-out arrangements they are dictated by the yard. It’s only the ex-racehorses that get anything other than a token fibre feed on my yard. When I grew up the horses were always stuffed with boiled barley, barley rings, linseed mash, oats and molassed sugar beet so I’m not convinced lots of people stuff their horses any more than they used to. At the current feed prices I don’t think people will want to be giving lots of hard feed. Hay is usually soaked to remove sugars.

Exercise is probably overall less due to lack of time, lack of hacking, fear of causing other issues such as impact injuries through working on hard ground.

I don’t think it’s an easy issue to deal with at all and it’s something I constantly battle with.
 
What I do remember about the laminitis cases i came across as a child is very little was done to manage. They had an attack and if they came through it there was no strip grazing, no muzzles, no tracks etc. They went back onto normal grazing and if they had it again, they were PTS.

There were fewer horses doing nothing too, horses unable to be ridden were PTS and even really old horses were still doing some work not retired. It was quite practical and much harsher and the ones still around were the survivors.
 
The riding school I was at when I was a child fed the ponies oats, barley and sugar beet twice a day.

My 12hh pony had a scoop of each a day. She was on working livery at the time and was doing upwards of 2hrs work each day. The hacking was directly into Forestry Commission land and when we hacked, we hacked fast.

She didn’t get laminitis until she’d been outgrown by me, and had moved to my cousins. Where she was worked less, lived out in a herd and wasn’t fed.

I’m currently pregnant so mine aren’t doing the fast work they’d usually be doing. I am tracking them this year which is working for the more TB types. But the ponies are looking rounder than I’d like.

The workload really is crucial.
 
GreyDot said:
Rugs with necks - to add another reason - since their invention, no horse is cold! I see very few horses come out of winter looking lean. Then slapbang in to spring grass and longer turnout and there is no buffer for the weight
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I know I try to not use neck covers and my horses are clipped and they don't freeze I just think they over heat alot of horses and are totally unnecessary.
 
Pinkvboots said:
24 degrees is not hot what do you think people do in countries where its 40 degrees for months just not ride!
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Hence why I said......
Gallop_Away said:
If our horses were acclimatised to it then that's a different matter, but the majority of UK horses are not.
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And ......
Gallop_Away said:
There are many other factors to consider such as humidity, horses fitness, what level of exercise are you planning on working the horse to, is the horse used to working in higher temps etc.
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I'm fully aware people can and do ride horses in far higher temperatures than average UK summers, however in most cases, those horses are accustomed to being worked in those temperatures whereas the average horse in UK, is not.

If you wish to ride your horses in this heat, then that is your choice, but I don't think those of us who would not be willing to risk it are being unreasonable.
 
Gallop_Away said:
Hence why I said......


And ......


I'm fully aware people can and do ride horses in far higher temperatures than average UK summers, however in most cases, those horses are accustomed to being worked in those temperatures whereas the average horse in UK, is not.

If you wish to ride your horses in this heat, then that is your choice, but I don't think those of us who would not be willing to risk it are being unreasonable.
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You can still work round it I get up early and ride or if i ride when it's hot I don't go mad, a brisk walk for half an hour won't hurt a horse and it's better than doing nothing.

If the UK is getting hotter then our horses will become used to it and you just take it easy and do it slowly.
 
Pinkvboots said:
You can still work round it I get up early and ride or if i ride when it's hot I don't go mad, a brisk walk for half an hour won't hurt a horse and it's better than doing nothing.

If the UK is getting hotter then our horses will become used to it and you just take it easy and do it slowly.
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As I say, people will make their own decisions on whether it is appropriate to ride or not. Perhaps it won't hurt but equally it won't hurt to miss a schooling session or ride at a different time of day when it's cooler, and while I understand it may be frustrating for instructors, I don't think it's unreasonable for clients to cancel lessons scheduled for the hottest times of the day in these temperatures.

Having watched a horse overheat, it's not something I would be prepared to risk so this time of year, I opt to ride late in the evenings during the week after I finish work, and weekends I'm usually out by 7am.

If people still choose to ride in the middle of the day, that is obviously completely their choice, and they know their horse's capabilities, but I would advise caution.

Anyway OP I'm sorry if we've derailed the point of your post xx
 
A propos of this thread: As I was poo picking round my ponies' bare and weedy track this morning i wondered, is there less incidence of laminitis and EMS for instance in hotter countries with less grazing, Spain (southern) for instance, Desert areas, dusty plains, arrid hillsides? It is much easier to control the diet and weight of a horse or pony and allow adequate space for them to wander round if they are not kept on areas of over rich grass. It may not look so nice to the outside observer and I am sure livery yard owners would like to pride themselves on the quality of their grass acreage, but is it it really any good for their clients? so many people complain that they do not have control over the fencing/stripping of their paddocks at livery so end up keeping their horses stabled all day, having had to stable them all day in the winter to "preserve" the quality of the fields for the summer!!!

Also, re weight management. It seems to me that many horse owners rely too much on a school/manege for exercising their horses. Nothing gets a horse fitter and leaner than long, slow exercise over different terrain, as a base, interspersed with cantering when suitable. I am a great admirer of NikkiMarriet (sorry about spelling!) who hacks her high class dressage horse for miles and takes him to the gallops. I appreciate that modern times and fast traffic has made riding on many roads an absolute horror but if you are lucky enough to be able to box up for a lesson or a show then surely you can also go to suitable hacking areas. I am now going to be rather blunt here: Time, many will say they do not have the time to go for longer hacks on a regular basis, well, find some one who will do it for you! TBH, if we (collectively) can't do what is right for our horses perhaps we should think twice about owning them.
 
It is very difficult to manage a lami prone horse on most yard set ups. What my pony needs is access to a very rough hilly moor with shade and trees, where he is constantly moving for food. Most yard set ups are nothing like that, so I have to muzzle and restrict his grazing area. He’s got Cushings and EMS and he’s retired, so it’s a constant battle.

A big consideration for my next horse is trying to avoid anything that is very prone to laminitis, it’s such a difficult condition to manage in the UK.
 
J&S said:
A propos of this thread: As I was poo picking round my ponies' bare and weedy track this morning i wondered, is there less incidence of laminitis and EMS for instance in hotter countries with less grazing, Spain (southern) for instance, Desert areas, dusty plains, arrid hillsides? It is much easier to control the diet and weight of a horse or pony and allow adequate space for them to wander round if they are not kept on areas of over rich grass. It may not look so nice to the outside observer and I am sure livery yard owners would like to pride themselves on the quality of their grass acreage, but is it it really any good for their clients? so many people complain that they do not have control over the fencing/stripping of their paddocks at livery so end up keeping their horses stabled all day, having had to stable them all day in the winter to "preserve" the quality of the fields for the summer!!!

Also, re weight management. It seems to me that many horse owners rely too much on a school/manege for exercising their horses. Nothing gets a horse fitter and leaner than long, slow exercise over different terrain, as a base, interspersed with cantering when suitable. I am a great admirer of NikkiMarriet (sorry about spelling!) who hacks her high class dressage horse for miles and takes him to the gallops. I appreciate that modern times and fast traffic has made riding on many roads an absolute horror but if you are lucky enough to be able to box up for a lesson or a show then surely you can also go to suitable hacking areas. I am now going to be rather blunt here: Time, many will say they do not have the time to go for longer hacks on a regular basis, well, find some one who will do it for you! TBH, if we (collectively) can't do what is right for our horses perhaps we should think twice about owning them.
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Completely agree! Nothing gets a horse fit like long hacks and hill work.
I admit I'm incredibly lucky with where I keep my horses in that we have access to miles of off road forestry/farmland/bridleways to hack and a 2hr hack is considered a "short one" on our yard.
I personally think hacking is incredibly beneficial to horse's both physically and mentally although it seems to be looked down on on times. The term happy hacker seems to hold quite negative connotations which is a great shame.
 
My horses are carrying too much weight - my fault for just nut being “harder” on them over time. They’re not obese but have too healthy a covering. Our grazing is just too good and I have acres of lovely grazing available. Two are companions, one is a light hack. I am on a mission to reduce and long term manage their weight - paddock they are now in (and will be in for the foreseeable) is pretty bare but large and they move about quite a lot. They come in every day out of the heat and I am rationing hay - small portions every few hours (I work at home most days so can manage this). They have constant access to straw chaff. Light hack is walked in hand or lunged (using full school) on days not ridden. It’s a slow process though and I don’t expect miracles or easy fixes - it’s a way of managing them not a diet. I am contemplating a track around other fields available to increase the steps but am resigned to fact that muzzles will be required.
 
On the temperature and riding debate - I have ridden in 32 degrees when I had to. You take sensible precautions though - we soak them in cold water immediately before riding, and have slosh bottles ready for more soaking as soon as they dry off. Ponies are also fit enough for the work they are doing and are a sensible weight. Same precautions for humans (wet hair!). Currently I have 6 in work, and we ride early so the last set is done before 10am. I would still go to a show (which is a 5 min jump round not a massive long hack) but with appropriate water to drink and to slosh on.
 
I'm a happy hacker on a large yard of generally not very well off owners.

Pretty much no one rides. 50 horses and maybe 7 are ridden, and then only 2 of those owned by teenagers are ridden more than twice a week. It's not even down to a lack of time, most people spend hours socialising but no desire to ride. It's more like having a dog, a way of life and being part of a community, riding is optional.

This is new isn't it? Horses used to be too expensive to justify unless you wanted to ride, but we've had many years of them costing peanuts and certainly on my yard there were plenty of impulse purchases which are now pasture ornaments.

We are seeing far more lami. Since Christmas there have been 5 cases in young adult horses who aren't massively overweight. Owners are concerned, grazing muzzles are going on (in the fields which still have grass!) and hay is being soaked but still no increase in work.

I guess our horses do move more than standard, they're in giant quite poor pastures in large herds and they are up and down the hills many times a day. I'm sure it does help but it's obviously not enough.

For my part my girl was obese when I got her and has lost 10 inches from her girth but can still lose more. I try to ride ever other day but it's gentle short hacks so I think it's mainly from more sensible feeding and having to move in the field. There is currently minimal grass due to the weather but I still worry about lami.
 
Gallop_Away said:
To be fair I wouldn't ride in 24+ heat. If our horses were acclimatised to it then that's a different matter, but the majority of UK horses are not. Call me a snowflake if you like but I prefer to ride early morning/late evening in these temperatures and would cancel a lesson if it was booked for the hottest part of the day in the temperatures we've been having lately.....

To answer the OP I agree with scats who I think has summarised it nicely.
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24 is not hot, its a normal average UK temp and it was at 6pm with a strong breeze.

the only way to become acclimatized is not to wimp out at the first sign of it being "hot" (or cold or windy or wet or whatever)
 
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