Laminitis - vet advised swapping to total hay replacer!

cblover

cblover

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Some of you will know that my 15 yr old mare has suffered since the end of May with laminitis and EMS. We are over the acute stage (when I thought she was gonna die) and 8 weeks on the current state is...mare is still on box rest with an even bigger bed than before (vets advice), bute once a day and soaked hay. I got a second opinion from an equine expert vet yesterday who has told me to swap her hay to Dengie Hi-Fi Lite as a total hay replace, feeding 10kg a day. I've weighed it out and it equates to 5 general water sized buckets over a 24hr period. She's not impressed as she inhales it just about and it last about 2 minutes.

I rang the dengie helpline and they suggested using hay and dengie, which I'd prefer to do but I'm just wondering who else has gone onto feeding only dengie instead of hay?

Two more trims are booked in for beginning of Aug and Sept then she will be xrayed again but the thought of her in until September just freaks me out. I feel so sorry for her. One foot has quite severe rotation and I just don't know how it will ever be as strong as before.

When do you say enough is enough and how can I make the decision to end her life if there is a chance of her getting better? But seeing her stuck in is awful. Vet did say clinically there is no reason to pts but if I don't want to see her in for the next few months or the cost is too great, he'd be happy to pts on my say so. I'm worried, sick as a pig, scared I may loose her and have no idea what to do.
 
Whats her current weight & what is her ideal weight? I would stick with soaked hay - 12 hours soaking & mixed with barley straw, double netted or trickle net. What have her x-rays shown do far?
 
Oat straw?

Pop a couple of large bricks in the bucket to try and slow her down?

Isn't 24 hours soaking hay the optimum time to reduce the goodness?

Sounds harsh but could you muzzle her when you feed her? Might help slow her down?
 
Dizzle said:
Oat straw?

Pop a couple of large bricks in the bucket to try and slow her down?

Isn't 24 hours soaking hay the optimum time to reduce the goodness?

Sounds harsh but could you muzzle her when you feed her? Might help slow her down?
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I believe it depends on the water temperature. Warmer - less time to soak is required etc. I soak hay for a minimum of 12 hours regardless of temperature & rinse. I use Barley straw, calorifically, is low but fills them up.
 
Oat straw can be high in sugars/starch though.
Personally I've always fed a combination of soaked hay/ high fibre haylage with a couple of safe replacers, so Hi Fi molasses free (worth bearing in mind that Hi Fi lite also contains molasses, albeit the lower sugar version, and alfalfa makes some horses footy) Fast Fibre is good, you need to find a feed that has a combined sugar/starch content below 10%.

That way I figure that there is a good range of feed too keep interested and I use a greedy feeder net for long forage which helps.
 
She is 600kg and ideally she needs to be 500kg. She's a 14.2hh heavyweight mare and she's 15. Never had an ailment in her life until now. I've bought some new small holed haynets and that is slowing her down with her hay. I'll try some smooth big stones in her hifi lite too.....good idea.
 
Her ideal weight is 500kg. 1.5% of her ideal weight is 7.5. You should be feeding 7.5kg for weightloss not 10kg. I still think a combination of soaked hay & barley straw is more suitable. A recommended all round feed for vits & minerals should also be fed & included in the 7.5kg daily allowance.
 
Poor you and your mare...

She will recover with some careful attention to sugars, starches and your vets will never recommend it as it hasn't been trialled, but do consider some sort of herbal detox to flush out the kidneys and the liver from build up of whatever has tipped this mare over the edge. My boy has had laminitis quite a few times and once I stopped listening to the vets and took up a regime of making sure he had low vit n min, particularly iron, supplementation, low sugar and twice a year I gave GH Restore or Trinity Consultants L94, it stopped recurring! I even stopped shoeing! Just read up as much as you can.

Stick to soaked hay but not for long periods of time, they need some nutrients from hay. You could do mainly soaked hay, then a day of normal, then a night of soaked. Add salt, your usual kind, to the diet to help encourage water consumption and drain the lymph.

Movement is encouraged according to the barefoot and rehab farriers. In boots only though. Cavallos would be good for your mare and get some foam pads. Look online you will find everything very easily. Walk in hand and go browsing herbs if you can and you have access. This will keep her spirits up and get her out and about and the movement will help heal the internal structures. Keep any thrush at bay or the hoof takes longer to heal.

15 is too young to PTS if she will have a good chance of recovery. Look up Pete Ramey and Rockley Farm, lots more...
 
Please please look at The Laminitis Site and their facebook page,Andrea will help you she is a font of all knowledge re laminitis and has helped countless owners.
 
cblover said:
Some of you will know that my 15 yr old mare has suffered since the end of May with laminitis and EMS. .
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No advice sorry but just wanted to wish you and your mare all the best. I lost my EMS mare to laminitis in March. She was only 13. The EMS makes weight control and feeding such a nightmare.
 
cblover said:
Some of you will know that my 15 yr old mare has suffered since the end of May with laminitis and EMS. We are over the acute stage (when I thought she was gonna die) and 8 weeks on the current state is...mare is still on box rest with an even bigger bed than before (vets advice), bute once a day and soaked hay. I got a second opinion from an equine expert vet yesterday who has told me to swap her hay to Dengie Hi-Fi Lite as a total hay replace, feeding 10kg a day. I've weighed it out and it equates to 5 general water sized buckets over a 24hr period. She's not impressed as she inhales it just about and it last about 2 minutes.

I rang the dengie helpline and they suggested using hay and dengie, which I'd prefer to do but I'm just wondering who else has gone onto feeding only dengie instead of hay?

Two more trims are booked in for beginning of Aug and Sept then she will be xrayed again but the thought of her in until September just freaks me out. I feel so sorry for her. One foot has quite severe rotation and I just don't know how it will ever be as strong as before.

When do you say enough is enough and how can I make the decision to end her life if there is a chance of her getting better? But seeing her stuck in is awful. Vet did say clinically there is no reason to pts but if I don't want to see her in for the next few months or the cost is too great, he'd be happy to pts on my say so. I'm worried, sick as a pig, scared I may loose her and have no idea what to do.
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Mine had severe rotation in both back feet, and rotation in both front (toxic laminitis). The Vet school advised us 12-24 hr soaked hay. He also had barley straw, Honeychop chopped straw (no molasses at all). A few high fibre cubes, magnesium, various herbs and salt.

He was in for a total of 10 months, with walks only starting in month 11. He is now out 12 hrs a day in a small pen, and it looks like we'll be back on him by the end of the summer.

Don't give up, it was really hard work, and at times I thought he would never make it, and at the start he came within 30 mins of being puts, his condition was so severe.
 
I'm in a similar position to you. Posted on your previous threads. My gelding has been in since May 28th. Back hooves unaffected. Rotation and dropping in both fronts. Off fore is the worse. Hart bars were ineffective. Farrier and vet back out shoes off and pedal bone starting to drop through the sole. He had 7 days to improve or it was pts. Farrier thought inprints wouldn't be the best route because of his size and the weight going through the front legs onto the shoes. He has some easiboots on that have memory foam stuff in bottom of them. 7 days later return visit from the vet and the change is remarkable. This horse I had to literally drag out of the stable for the vet, he walked out the stable with purpose and allowed the vet to lift all 4 hooves. He is not out of the woods for sure but I'm hopeful. He has had blood tests for liver and kidney function because of the preloved use of bute but all clear. Don't give up. I can't. He is happy enough in the stable and I try to entertain and give him a horse neighbour when I can. I'm just praying he recovers.
 
I forgot to mention he has 1.5 % of his body weight daily in hay. Hay is soaked for 12 hours. I feed it in a haylage net with another haylage net over the top. He has a token ammount of hifi molasses free with his bute and t.e.n daily balancer in. That's it. He has lost 80 kilos since end of may. He could do with shifting a bit more but it's slow journey and just gradually reducing it over time.
 
I remember you telling me about your horse. Thank god he seems to be on the mend. Did you do something different in the 7 days do u think? I'm feeding T.E.N. Balancer too. I have some easy boots rx too for her front feet but vet says she's not at the point yet where she can wonder about. I just hope we make it that far.
 
What about adding a couple of vitamunch blocks to her ration (& make it Hi Fi Mol. Free as mentioned). They can be soaked too & they're made with timothy hay which is much, much lower in sugar than most ordinary hay. They are tiny & come with tiny nets so slower for her to eat.
 
He is on a very deep bed and just has those boots. Didn't do anything else at all. The shoes made no difference and he couldn't really take a step at all. The easiboots just made him so much more comfortable. He is boxed 24/7 and I only bring him out when the vet comes and then it's just literally out the front of his stable so she can see him on a hard surface. It's going to be a long road and I have no idea how long he will be boxed for I just want him to come good in the end. I do feel at times that I'm just constantly buying shavings,mucking out and soaking hay and yes I do get down about it, but the thought of him eventually getting better keeps me going.
 
ChesnutsRoasting said:
I believe it depends on the water temperature. Warmer - less time to soak is required etc. I soak hay for a minimum of 12 hours regardless of temperature & rinse. I use Barley straw, calorifically, is low but fills them up.
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My mare came back off loan with laminitis. She is a food hoover so could get through her ration even double netted very quickly. I used to soak her hay and half the ration was soaked barley straw, which she hated and would only pick at so I knew she wasn't that hungry.
Even though its summer I would consider a full clip as they use most of their energy to keep warm so even if they only burn off a few extra calories at night it all adds up.
 
The RX boots made all the difference to my gelding. They are wonderful boots, he had the pink comfort pads in. Keep going, when you're so close to them every day it can be hard to see small improvements.
 
atlantis said:
Hifi lite has molasses in it. Hifi molasses free is the only one that doesn't.
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But the molasses free one is higher in calories so you have to choose what's most important .
When fatty went on his epic diet the breakthrough was using plain chopped oat straw he was out on a bare strip and we threw the chopped straw stiaght on to the ground about the place unless it was raining when we used a big bowl .
I was getting no where using soaked hay .
 
Goldenstar said:
When fatty went on his epic diet the breakthrough was using plain chopped oat straw he was out on a bare strip and we threw the chopped straw stiaght on to the ground about the place unless it was raining when we used a big bowl .
I was getting no where using soaked hay .
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I used the oat straw chaff for my obese Draft mare. She had a small amount of hay/haylage overnight and as many huge trugs of chaff as she wanted.

Since I have taken anything with even the smallest amount of wheatfeed/molasses and made sure that she only has hay (no haylage) her appetite has lessened and last winter she was able to have ad-lib hay. She lost over 200kgs over 3+ yrs. She was never laminitic but my farrier, in his usual prophet of doom way, kept telling me that if she did develop it she would be a goner.

In OP's case I would choose the no molasses Hi-Fi, as it seems that the sugar is more detrimental than the calories.
 
I`ve had instructions to put my HW cob on an urgent diet so have been looking into low cal options (he also hoovers everything at warp speed so I feed your pain!)
Take a look at Agrobs Leitchgenuss from Red Rufus which has an extremely low DE (5.6MJ/KG) and contains no mollasses, alfalfa and is not chemically treated and has no mould inhibitors (which personally I think is a consideration when dealing with anything metabolic)

There has been a bit of a supply gap whilst the ingredients have been harvested but it should be back in plentiful supply by next week I`ve been informed :-)

At the moment i`m feeding Timothy hage as i`ve run out of hay but am getting a delivery early next week which will be soaked for 12 hrs and rinsed, double netted with 12 hrs turnout on a bare paddock. We are getting somewhere slowly (as I can`t exercise him at the moment as i`m injured :-/) but he will be back on a couple of buckets of the Fatty Chaff (as I call it!) through the day as soon as it comes back in stock!
 
You could always rinse the hi fi lite if you horse will eat it wet, most of the coating comes off when you drain it. I did this with my fatty and it worked well, it is a bit of a faff though, and it works out very expensive as a total hay replacer.

10kg a day does seem quite a lot too, I was only feeding 7kg to my 14:3hh cob. He was also fed in small amounts 6 times a day, otherwise he'd have spent hours with nothing to eat. Even doing that, he was still without food for long periods of time overnight. I just had to weigh up the dangers of him being very overweight against the danger of developing ulcers. My vet was adamant that losing the weight was the top priority even though my horse has never had full blown laminitis.

He managed to lose over 90kg and didn't develop ulcers as far as I'm aware, he has no symptoms anyway, so it did work for us but it was very time consuming.

Wishing you all the best with your horse, I'm sure you will make the right decision for her, whatever that may be.
 
When do you say enough is enough and how can I make the decision to end her life if there is a chance of her getting better? But seeing her stuck in is awful. Vet did say clinically there is no reason to pts but if I don't want to see her in for the next few months or the cost is too great, he'd be happy to pts on my say so. I'm worried, sick as a pig, scared I may loose her and have no idea what to do.[/QUOTE]

I had a similar situation when my 16.3hh Ish got stress laminitis. She had rotation and sinkage of her pedal bones. I kept her in and comfortable for 3 months. It was no life for her. In the end her fate was decided when her sole on one foot was seeping blood and pus. I took the decision to pts and the vet said that 3 months was too long to box confine in their opinion and this was the kindest outcome. I was gutted,
 
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