Laminitis- when do you call it a day?

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

I have to stress, I'm absolutely not at that point yet. But I'm an awful catastrophiser, and I just like to know in my mind when I WOULD call it a day.

Current situation: little mare, 14yo, on prascend, off the grass (I've got about 80m L shaped strip of bare earth/mud from where it was trashed over winter), soaked hay.

She's not quite right. Pulses up and down- I can very often feel a faint pulse, it's worse on hot days, perfectly fine after a cooler night. She strides out nicely in a straight line on tarmac, but if there are any loose stones on the tarmac then she feels them. Cautious when turning on a hard surface, fine when turning on a soft surface. If the pulses are bad enough to worry me then I give a bit of bute twice a day for two days and that always brings it right down to nothing, which emphasises that even this very faint pulse that she usually has is not right.

I should say that she had her feet xrayed a couple of months ago, and they were fine. Toes possibly a bit long. She's barefoot, 7 week trimming cycle.

I still have a a few things up my sleeve. Vet booked to take bloods next week- maybe she needs a higher dose of prascend. I'm also going to ask to check liver function. Although this is the fussiest pony ever, and she's already refused L94, milk thistle, and the crazy expensive probiotics from equi biome, so if she does have liver problems I'm not sure what I can do about it.

But basically, what degree of "not quite right" would you tolerate?

 

[bonny]

I have to stress, I'm absolutely not at that point yet. But I'm an awful catastrophiser, and I just like to know in my mind when I WOULD call it a day.

Current situation: little mare, 14yo, on prascend, off the grass (I've got about 80m L shaped strip of bare earth/mud from where it was trashed over winter), soaked hay.

She's not quite right. Pulses up and down- I can very often feel a faint pulse, it's worse on hot days, perfectly fine after a cooler night. She strides out nicely in a straight line on tarmac, but if there are any loose stones on the tarmac then she feels them. Cautious when turning on a hard surface, fine when turning on a soft surface. If the pulses are bad enough to worry me then I give a bit of bute twice a day for two days and that always brings it right down to nothing, which emphasises that even this very faint pulse that she usually has is not right.

I should say that she had her feet xrayed a couple of months ago, and they were fine. Toes possibly a bit long. She's barefoot, 7 week trimming cycle.

I still have a a few things up my sleeve. Vet booked to take bloods next week- maybe she needs a higher dose of prascend. I'm also going to ask to check liver function. Although this is the fussiest pony ever, and she's already refused L94, milk thistle, and the crazy expensive probiotics from equi biome, so if she does have liver problems I'm not sure what I can do about it.

But basically, what degree of "not quite right" would you tolerate?

Has she had laminitis? You sound a little bit paranoid to me unless she’s got a history of it

 

[Gloi]

Have you tried boots and pads on her and ,providing she is sound, walking her out in them. Work is one of the best ways to prevent laminitis so long as there isn't any current problem.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

Has she had laminitis? You sound a little bit paranoid to me unless she’s got a history of it

Yes, sorry, she had a bout of laminitis in the spring, hence all the precautions. But to be honest, that laminitis episode was just an exaggeration of all her other current symptoms, ie very strong pulses, shortened stride in a straight line, footy when turning even on a soft surface.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

Have you tried boots and pads on her and ,providing she is sound, walking her out in them. Work is one of the best ways to prevent laminitis so long as there isn't any current problem.

I have wondered this. Especially seeing as we've xrayed the feet fairly recently and there were no significant changes. I'll ask the vet about this next week.

 

[L&M]

Tbh if this was my horse I would be already considering it, she sounds a difficult one to manage, but great that you are happy at this stage to continue and I wish you both all the luck in the world.

We made the decision on our old chap when he has his second bad bout (cushings related). The first episode took 6 mnths to get him right and although he had another healthy year after, we decided not to put him thought it again.

For me it is about quality of life - 6 mnths box rest and being in pain, and then having every aspect of quality of life micro managed afterwards is no life for a horse that is meant to be enjoying its retirement.....however I do appreciate yours is only 14 so we may have felt differently if ours had been younger and still in work.

 

[Mustard]

I agree with L&M. It's quality of life that matters, and a horse needs to be a horse. I've got a 17yr old wiith EMS who has never managed to be a ridden horse. Sjhe has had a couple of bad bouts but we have got her through them, though she had moderate rotation when xrayed earlier this year. At the moment she is in overnight with a small soaked net but goes out in the day with her mates. Our grazing is poor, so there is always hay out, which isn't soaked. She is also lunged vigorously several times a week. If we can't control it like this, we will say goodbye - I won't put her through that pain again.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

Tbh if this was my horse I would be already considering it, she sounds a difficult one to manage, but great that you are happy at this stage to continue and I wish you both all the luck in the world.

We made the decision on our old chap when he has his second bad bout (cushings related). The first episode took 6 mnths to get him right and although he had another healthy year after, we decided not to put him thought it again.

For me it is about quality of life - 6 mnths box rest and being in pain, and then having every aspect of quality of life micro managed afterwards is no life for a horse that is meant to be enjoying its retirement.....however I do appreciate yours is only 14 so we may have felt differently if ours had been younger and still in work.

This is just it. I feel like right now she has a fairly decent quality of life. Out 24/7 with soaked haynets dotted about the place, she's got a friend, she seems mostly comfortable. But this feels like a temporary measure (even though it's been going on since May!) and if it turned out that even by December she still couldn't tolerate the grass, I don't think I'd be happy for her to live like this permanently all year round for the rest of her life.

If she had an acute attack then I've already decided I definitely wouldn't put her through a lengthy boxrest. Last time she did just 2 weeks, one with bute one without, and she was very unhappy about that.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

I agree with L&M. It's quality of life that matters, and a horse needs to be a horse. I've got a 17yr old wiith EMS who has never managed to be a ridden horse. Sjhe has had a couple of bad bouts but we have got her through them, though she had moderate rotation when xrayed earlier this year. At the moment she is in overnight with a small soaked net but goes out in the day with her mates. Our grazing is poor, so there is always hay out, which isn't soaked. She is also lunged vigorously several times a week. If we can't control it like this, we will say goodbye - I won't put her through that pain again.

Can I ask- did yours need shoes/boots to get her sound enough to lunge? Mine is certainly not "trim" but she's not an obvious ems shape. No fat pads over her eyes, some fat on her shoulders and tail pad, ribs only visible if she bends right round but easily felt without digging.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

When her quality of life deteriorates so that she can't live comfortably like a horse, I would (and have ) call it a day.

 

[SEL]

You say her x rays are ok so is there anything else causing foot pain? I'm battling thrush in one of mine and she is very ouchy on the driveway.

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

You say her x rays are ok so is there anything else causing foot pain? I'm battling thrush in one of mine and she is very ouchy on the driveway.

Yes, it's been hideously wet here for months, and she does also have a bit of thrush. It doesn't look too bad from the outside, but maybe it goes deeper? I've just been treating once a week with one of those frogaid type products (but I can't remember exactly which one I'm using atm!) But thrush wouldn't cause raised pulses would it? Another one to ask the vet about ??

 

[holeymoley]

Pulses will naturally increase in hot weather so I wouldn’t be overly concerned about that. Is she on any hard feed? I’d be checking the prascend dosage is correct. My concern would be why she’s feeling her feet- is it a cautious walk or a tucked up this is sore walk? If cautious it could be that she needs boots or shoes or stoney ground. If she’s walking on her heels and limping over it then I’d be checking blood tests for anything else.

 

[blitznbobs]

I have a low threshold tbh… in my experience if they dont come right quickly they are never really right… she sounds symptomatic to me and all the horses ive known on higher doses of prascend are pretty miserable . Quality over quantity every time on my yard.

 

[meleeka]

I have a low threshold tbh… in my experience if they dont come right quickly they are never really right… she sounds symptomatic to me and all the horses ive known on higher doses of prascend are pretty miserable . Quality over quantity every time on my yard.

Mines on 2 tablets and thriving so it’s not always the case. She hasn’t had laminitis for years but dose was increased when she was as the OP describes, just not quite right.

I do agree that quality of life is vital. Nobody gets a price for keeping them going as long as possible. When mine stops being happy or I can’t control her getting full on laminitis she’ll go.

 

[chocolategirl]

OP, has she been tested for EMS? I’ve got 2 ponies who’ve had laminitis in the past, they’re 26 & 29, both have cushings, both on Prascend. One is shod in front, the other barefoot and when she hits stones going across the yard, she’s ‘footy’, I think that’s quite normal tbh, she’s definitely NOT laminitic now. It could be that she has EMS and cushings, in which case, you’re fighting nature, so it won’t matter how well you are managing her, she may still be struggling ?‍

 

[SEL]

Yes, it's been hideously wet here for months, and she does also have a bit of thrush. It doesn't look too bad from the outside, but maybe it goes deeper? I've just been treating once a week with one of those frogaid type products (but I can't remember exactly which one I'm using atm!) But thrush wouldn't cause raised pulses would it? Another one to ask the vet about ??

Any kind of inflammation can cause raised pulses. I'd hammer the thrush and see how you get on. I've got a new spray designed for sheep foot rot problems which I'm going to try

 

[Not_so_brave_anymore]

OP, has she been tested for EMS? I’ve got 2 ponies who’ve had laminitis in the past, they’re 26 & 29, both have cushings, both on Prascend. One is shod in front, the other barefoot and when she hits stones going across the yard, she’s ‘footy’, I think that’s quite normal tbh, she’s definitely NOT laminitic now. It could be that she has EMS and cushings, in which case, you’re fighting nature, so it won’t matter how well you are managing her, she may still be struggling ?‍

I don't think she's really EMS but I do think her metabolism is compromised from restricted movement. I'll definitely be asking my vet for the go ahead to get her put and doing a bit more (but I know my vet is very cautious, and I've got a feeling she'd rather err on the side of another period of deep shavings and boxrest, ie the exact opposite!)

 

[Mustard]

Can I ask- did yours need shoes/boots to get her sound enough to lunge? Mine is certainly not "trim" but she's not an obvious ems shape. No fat pads over her eyes, some fat on her shoulders and tail pad, ribs only visible if she bends right round but easily felt without digging.

She hasn't ever needed boots or shoes, but she does have very hard feet, always a surprise to me since she's 5/8ths TB. The rest is connie.

 

[JJS]

I have a low threshold tbh… in my experience if they dont come right quickly they are never really right… she sounds symptomatic to me and all the horses ive known on higher doses of prascend are pretty miserable . Quality over quantity every time on my yard.

I don’t entirely agree, and I say this as someone who did make that call, so no criticism intended. I think they’re all completely different and have to be assessed as individuals.

I’ve had two with laminitis. My ISH gelding I lost at 11. He tested negative for PPID and EMS, but I’m still convinced he had something metabolic going on. In his case, his other health issues meant I couldn’t manage him in a way where I’d be able to stop it from happening again, so I PTS the second time he got it.

My 29 year old is a different story. He is PPID, super easy to do, and I feel like I have a lot more cards up my sleeve with him, despite his age. I came very close to letting him go when he had a bout of laminitis this winter, but gut feeling said that he wasn’t ready to go. He’s now on an increased dose of Prascend and back to having a normal, happy life.

I think a lot of it comes down to intuition. You know your horse better than anyone, and you’ll know when the balance tips from quality of life to quantity. My advice would be to have faith in yourself and trust your instincts. The fact you’re questioning it already means you’re not the sort of owner who’s going to leave her to suffer because you can’t make those hard decisions.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I lost my mare to Lami, and her son gets it as do my mare and pony.

My boy feel the stones, and so does the pony who I used keratex on her and it made a huge difference so will be putting it on the boy. I also use Turmeric twice day to reduce flare ups, when I down it to 1 measure his feet went warm.

My routine and things I do.

• • Equine America turmeric,
  • Get the lamintis app
  • low starch diet
  • muzzle or limited grazing
  • starvation paddock
  • Timothy haylage

My boy is worse on hay, and the blue haylage but fine on the purple one.

 

[splashgirl45]

I have a low threshold tbh… in my experience if they dont come right quickly they are never really right… she sounds symptomatic to me and all the horses ive known on higher doses of prascend are pretty miserable . Quality over quantity every time on my yard.

mine was on 4 prascend daily for 2 years and was not at all miserable she was full of life , then she seemed to go backwards and was a bit quiet which was unusual , got vet, had her retested and her levels had risen quite a bit, vet contacted leahurst to see if we could up the dose and they said if she had gone up so much on 4, there was no point increasing it so i decided to let her go..