laminitis

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RoyalSapphire

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Ok this is probably going to sound bad but the I'm at a loss. This is my first pony and everything was going great but then she got laminitis that turned out to be cushings (not literally the cushings is pushing the laminitis) and now a sore belly which I think is uclers. She's on 1 pracend a day for cushings and nothing for laminitis but I'm giving her calcium carbonate pills for stomach which so far have done nowt! Anyway she's had this laminitis for ages now. Well at least it feels like it. It's been 2 months into the 3rd. And she just doesn't seem to be getting better. She has improved, she was on 2 butes a day and still was in a bit of pain and lay down at night and is now on nothing and doesn't lie down at night or at all. But she's still not right. Both her 2 front legs are really swollen!! Vet things it just strain of standing still/standing on sore hooves but they are very swollen and she still doesn't want to move unless she had to, for water, etc. This is where me sounding bad comes in although all of that ^^ wasn't great either. How long approximately should it take until she'll happily walk around and maybe do a small circle? I don't mean sound just so she'll walk without having to have to have a reason. Thanks and feel free to comment on my many other problems too. For the record that's; laminitis, swollen front legs (think being caused by the lami), cushings, sore belly (around the flank & under belly), thrush and flaky skin. Thanks
 
What management regime is she on? the prascend should help stabilise the condition but is not a cure in itself, the laminitis needs a very careful management plan involving the vet, the farrier and yourself taking care with her diet, a really deep bed and minimal movement until the pony is comfortable, it sounds as if something needs to change as she is not responding as well as she should be.

I would concentrate on her feet for now, the poor skin, sore tummy will be related but the laminintis is the primary concern, the thrush needs to be treated as having that will be contributing to the pain in her feet and making matters worse.

Has she been xrayed to see how much rotation there is? it will help give a better idea so the farrier can trim appropriately, I would be getting him out at least every 4 weeks to keep on top of them as getting the angles correct and maintaining that will help the recovery and the likelyhood of her returning to soundness.

Diet needs to be strictly low sugar/ starch but she needs to eat so well soaked hay, very little low energy feed, just enough for the supplements and meds, some straw to give her something to pick at so she is not spending hours without food going into her tummy, is she on a really deep bed to support her feet?

If you can answer some of my questions I am sure you will get some more help and suggestions.
 
She lives out 24/7 so in order for her to not be eating grass she has a stable size are sectioned off under a tree. She has some bedding under there too but not that much as my mother has rationed me. She is getting feed mourning and night but I think it should change to just mourning as she was getting calcium carbonate for her tummy but I don't think it's working so can just have 1 feed with her pracend pill in th morning. The farrier was supposed to be coming out but my mum cancelled it as she say refuses to pick up her front feet as it put too much pain on the other one she isn't picking up. The vet came when he tested her for cushings and said there was some rotation but don't know how much and apparently he wasn't that concerned. She has hay all-around but recently she hasn't been eating it just starting out into the big field and I'm not sure whether she's depressed (apparently they can get depressed from prascend but she's been on it for bout 2 weeks now so don't why she'd just be getting depressed now) or whether it's her sore tummy?
 
You need to get some xrays and find out if there is rotation. If she is stuck in the stable size paddock with no exercise, her legs will become useless. Also, they pain won't go away unless they are really deep bedded. Also, what is she being fed or why? are you soaking the hay? If so how long for?
 
RoyalSapphire said:
She lives out 24/7 so in order for her to not be eating grass she has a stable size are sectioned off under a tree. She has some bedding under there too but not that much as my mother has rationed me. She is getting feed mourning and night but I think it should change to just mourning as she was getting calcium carbonate for her tummy but I don't think it's working so can just have 1 feed with her pracend pill in th morning. The farrier was supposed to be coming out but my mum cancelled it as she say refuses to pick up her front feet as it put too much pain on the other one she isn't picking up. The vet came when he tested her for cushings and said there was some rotation but don't know how much and apparently he wasn't that concerned. She has hay all-around but recently she hasn't been eating it just starting out into the big field and I'm not sure whether she's depressed (apparently they can get depressed from prascend but she's been on it for bout 2 weeks now so don't why she'd just be getting depressed now) or whether it's her sore tummy?
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I think your horse needs a decent bed. From what you are describing she could well be in a reasonable amount of pain. If she is on 2 bute a day she likely is. She needs a good thick bed to be able to lie on and rest. I don't see why bedding is rationed for a very ill horse.
If she is 2 weeks on prascend she may well be depressed. Did you introduce it slowly? Most people do to avoid the depression however in your case due to the laminitis it may have been necessary to get her on a full dose asap.

Personally I have been in this position with a laminitic due to cushings. Putting it very bluntly I would not be asking how long before she can walk around happily but if she ever will. I am sorry to sound harsh my horse didn't make it and I did everything I could.
In your position I would have the horse on a deep bed for it's comfort and a vet, farrier and a digital x ray machine as soon as possible all out together to see what can be done for it.
You don't mention if the horse has shoes on but presumably not. If that is the case I would immediately get some hoof boots with pads on in order to make life more comfortable for her.
 
paddy555 said:
I think your horse needs a decent bed. From what you are describing she could well be in a reasonable amount of pain. If she is on 2 bute a day she likely is. She needs a good thick bed to be able to lie on and rest. I don't see why bedding is rationed for a very ill horse.
If she is 2 weeks on prascend she may well be depressed. Did you introduce it slowly? Most people do to avoid the depression however in your case due to the laminitis it may have been necessary to get her on a full dose asap.

Personally I have been in this position with a laminitic due to cushings. Putting it very bluntly I would not be asking how long before she can walk around happily but if she ever will. I am sorry to sound harsh my horse didn't make it and I did everything I could.
In your position I would have the horse on a deep bed for it's comfort and a vet, farrier and a digital x ray machine as soon as possible all out together to see what can be done for it.
You don't mention if the horse has shoes on but presumably not. If that is the case I would immediately get some hoof boots with pads on in order to make life more comfortable for her.
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This. Laminitis is serious!! My pony didn't make it either in spite of doing everything possible. Three months sounds a long time for her to be in such pain without any sign of a recovery.
 
She's no longer on any pain meds and no longer feels the need to lie down at night as she use to when she was on the pain meds. So you guys think the best thing to do is to give her lots of bedding, little food just a bit with pill, anything else? She will walk from one side to the other for hay, water, etc. Hay is not soaked. What about the swelling in her legs?
 
I agree with the people that say you need to get x-rays done asap, ideally with the farrier there to trim to them but at the very least get copies to him so he can trim to them within a day or so of them being taken. Without x-ray you don't know what you're dealing with. Regular farrier visits are crucial, getting those angles right & correct support fitted may mean the difference between pts & recovery, and just because you can't lift her feet doesn't mean a farrier won't be able to.

Do you have access to a stable? She really does need to be in on a very deep bed that goes right up to the door, it'll give her some support to her feet & also encourage her to lie down & take the weight off them - I hate to say it but she may not be laying down because she's worried she won't be able to get back up or because getting up is painful when she pulls into her front feet to stand. Soak her hay for the day overnight & vice versa, then rinse it well before feeding.

The swelling in her legs could be due to the veins being up because the inflammation is increasing the blood supply, it could be due to strain on tendons & ligaments, or it could be poor lymphatic drainage because she isn't moving much.

I'm shocked your vet isn't taking this more seriously, laminitis is normally viewed as an emergency & this sounds severe & has been going on a long time. Is he a specialist horse vet?

To sum up she needs stabling on a deep bed, x-rays & a farrier - all asap.
 
Agreed. You need to do more. A farrier visit with xrays in hand and a good balanced trim. The correct point of breakover must be established in the trim to get the torque off the weakened laminae. Otherwise, the descending weight of the horse will make things worse with the bone. I'd be using children's play mats cut to hoof size and customized further for comfort. Once you get her comfortable, she will start to move and its that movement that will start her walking away from this mess. I would put a half pad on her from 3 and 9 o'clock on the hoof, back to including the heels, then a whole pad on top of that. This leaves a window of space around the apex of the frog, where she is most sensitive and it helps to relieve pressure there when she weights it. (clean hoof, foot powder liberally sprinkled, 1/2 pad on hoof, then whole pad, then wrap with vetwrap. Then I cover the whole thing with duct tape. Cut all wraps and tape down to just below coronary band and a 1" slit vertically down between the heel bulbs to relieve any pressure. You have to be mean and take all food away except 2.5% of her body weight in grass hay (soaked 1 hour), water and salt. No treats, no sugar, no grass, no grain, no straw. Get a good hoof supplement, with buzz words like Lysine, methionine, biotin, copper and zinc. and magnesium. Simplify the diet right down. Use slow feeders on the perimeter of her enclosure to encourage movement and keep her busy/happy. If she has access to grass, you are going to have muzzle her. Get the vet to review the numbers on the ATCH test and determine again if one pill/day is enough. Sounds like it isn't. Test her again, and if there is not a satisfactory result, from the first test, then you know that one pill is not enough. When you get the dosage right, she will respond. Insulin can peak at different times of the year as well, so there should be a scheduled approach to the testing. Cortisol should also be tested for. Leptin is another. There won't be any comfortable circles done until the healing is almost completed, until then straight lines only. When insulin is high, so is Endothelin-1, which is a vaso-constricter. Ask the vet about a vaso-dilator, like Jiagulan to help. Good luck.
 
The horse needs to be on box rest with he whole are covered with a very deep bed. Are you soaking hay? Cut out any sugar possibilities in her diet, no grass at all, she shouldnt be walking to get grass anyway. 3 months is a long time for no improvement. Depending on how bad they were when you discovered , I would expect a decent improvement within a fortnight and more so within a month. I think you need to review the horse's care.
 
Have a read of this site and ring or join their Facebook page to get expert help and advice

http://www.thelaminitissite.org/laminitis.html

Your pony should not be moving about with rotation and he should not still be in pain 2/3 months on.
The first thing you need is xrays to determine if and how much rotation there is and then that needs correcting ASAP. Once that is done, your pony will feel a whole lot more comfortable and once he is, he can start his recovery.
Have his Cushing's levels been rechecked to make sure they are under control and that is not still driving the Laminitis?
 
Take all the advice above very seriously - a very very good equine vet told us years ago that if he was called to a colic and a laminitis at the same time he would go to the laminitis first. It is that life threatening.
 
I agree with what everyone else has said I would have her in a stable on deep bedding no grass and soaked hay, she does not really need hard feed and shouldn't be on it if she is still lame from the laminitis, you need to get the feet X rayed so you know what is going on and take it from there, I lost my mare to laminitis in July she had cushings and ems I managed to get it under control with prascend and she had pads on her feet, she was doing really well almost sound and it came back with a vengeance of you really need to take action now before its too late.
 
Unless his pedal bone is protruding through the sole it is unlikely to be too late, and if that were the case he wouldn't be still on his feet. My horse almost foundered two months ago and he is sound and happy now - but it took money and effort. Are you in the UK RoyalSapphire?
 
Any update OP?

I sympathise. I have a pony with lami who is on week 6 of box rest. She came down with it with no prior warning and it turns out she has Cushings.

My vet has been out several times. Pony has a big, deep bed, frog supports, Sedalin, Danilon and we are about to have 3rd set of Xrays. She has rotation - not terrible but rotation nonetheless. She is likely to be on box rest for months yet. Farrier is working with vet on the alignment trims. He was trimming fortnightly and has just put Imprint shoes on. She does have filled legs; that is because she is standing around. She lies down a lot - is always covered in shavings!

I would be concerned - is your vet an equine specialist? Could you seek another opinion? As others have said, you really do need Xrays to know what is going on and how to correct it , and your pony needs a deep supportive bed.

I hope your pony is feeling better soon.
 
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Once you find the cause of the Laminitis and treat that ,then the recovery should be fairly quick. Correct rotation asap....this should take weeks not months....support the whole foot not just the frog. Gardeners kneeling pads are great for this...cut to the shape of the hoof .
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Have you treated the thrush? This can be very painful
Have you retested her Cushing's to make sure its under control?
Everything you have mentioned should be treatable
 
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Vet came and had her pts on the 5th of November. She took a sudden turn for the worst from going to walking about a little bit to lying down. He came out and he said that she was back at the beginning and was as bad as when he first came out. He said that she had cushings, thrush, laminitis and a sore belly. He said that the cushings was pushing the laminitis and there had been more rotation and the pills weren't doing enough. Because the cushings had weakened her immune system the thrush was no longer just thrush but lots of other bacteria too and her hoof was just decaying and smelt awful - this was when she was lying down I could actually pick them out as she wouldn't pick them up before. Her belly was really sore and he said he couldn't give her Bute as that would make her tummy sore but she needed it for her hoof pain. The laminitis was in all 4. So he said the most humane thing we could do was pts. I really realised how much pain she was in when he doped her up so her last few hours were mainly pain free. He gave her the max amount of strongest painkiller he could and a Bute and she was still in alot of pain couldn't move. RIP Saffy. Love u forever
 
so sorry you lost her but it sounds like the laminitis was not going to get under control and it can come back with a vengeance, I know as the same happened to my mare it horrible to see them in so much pain sometimes pts is the only option, thanks for the update even though it was a sad one my thoughts are with you.
 
I am so sorry for your loss. It sounds like it was definitely the right decision for Saffy.

Laminitis is a horrible, horrible condition. I lost one to recurring lami (Cushings induced) earlier this year and now have another with the same - and her prognosis is really not looking great.

x
 
OldNag said:
I am so sorry for your loss. It sounds like it was definitely the right decision for Saffy.

Laminitis is a horrible, horrible condition. I lost one to recurring lami (Cushings induced) earlier this year and now have another with the same - and her prognosis is really not looking great.

x
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so sorry your other horse has cushings and laminitis I will keep my fingers crossed for you wouldn't wish it on anyone it's an awful condition:(
 
Pinkvboots said:
so sorry your other horse has cushings and laminitis I will keep my fingers crossed for you wouldn't wish it on anyone it's an awful condition:(
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Thank you. It's gutting to see it happening again. My vet is being beyond brilliant and we are trying everything. But the damned pedal bone is still trying to force its way down. Not giving up while pony is still bright and happy, but it's just not looking great for her.
 
OldNag said:
Thank you. It's gutting to see it happening again. My vet is being beyond brilliant and we are trying everything. But the damned pedal bone is still trying to force its way down. Not giving up while pony is still bright and happy, but it's just not looking great for her.
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bless her how long has it been since it started?
 
OldNag said:
Nearly 2 months. Came out of the blue - didn't know she had Cushings, had had no symptoms.
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she could still come right two months is not that long especially if she has rotation, my first horse only had a very mild attack which we caught early and she had two months box rest that was years ago before they made the connection with cushions being a cause, my mare I lost in July had cushings and ems she had rotation in one foot and was doing well after 3 months on prascend was almost sound but it came back:(
 
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