Land legal issue - any thoughts?

[bex1984]

This is a bit complicated, so bear with me...

My mum owns a house in Wales, and 10 years ago she bought a 1.2 acre paddock attached to the house which she was aware came with a 'tenant' who claimed he had rights to the land - he and his family have been using it for grazing for decades.

At the time the plan was to give the 'tenant' 0.2 acres, and he agreed he'd then give up his rights to the main remaining acre. However, for various unrelated reasons they never proceeded with this deal.

My mum is now hoping to sell the house, complete with the paddock, so she approached the 'tenant' again, to offer him the 0.2 acre - he has said he also wants a not insubstantial sum of money.

The 'tenant' has never paid my mum any rent, or had any contract, or used it continously (last time I visited it was empty and overgrown - he may well be using it now he knows she wants to sell though).

The last thing my mum wants to do is get into a battle over this - she would happily give him the 0.2 acre regardless of whether he has any rights to the land (as a goodwill gesture), but she really does not want to pay him the money he is asking for (she doesn't have it anyway!).

So - does anyone have any idea whether he does actually have any right to the land? Can he demand this money? any thoughts?

 

[Clippy]

Adverse Possession is pretty complicated, but as far as I understand it (and i'm not a legal expert, but a friend had a similar problem a few years ago but was claiming land like your 'tenant' is trying to), then 12 years exclusive use has to be proved.

Is there anything in writing at all? Has he ever paid a penny in rent? Can the agreement to give him a bit of the land be proven?

This tenant would have to have behaved as if they owned the land the whole 12 year period, which can include things like fencing off the land, padlocking it, repairing fencing etc. If your mum has done anything in respect of the land which would be consistent with owning it, for example trimming hedges or keeping it in good order, then the tenant may not have a claim.

Your mum could perhaps have been quick off the mark and put a couple of sheep or something on it, or just changed the gate or anything to establish ownership rather than just leave this tenant to do as he pleases with the land.

 

[FairyLights]

Go to Citizens Advice. This needs to be sorted out. The house sale could fall through and it could end up costing your mum a lot of money . She will have to face this head on even if she doesnt want to. CA are the best people to give advice.

 

[bex1984]

No - she hasn't done anything with it. She lives 250 miles away so not possible to nip down there and change the padlock or anything. Plus she didn't really want to get into this sort of thing - just wanted to give him the bit she knows he wanted (he uses it for access apparently) and wasn't expected to be asked for money.

 

[bex1984]

Go to Citizens Advice. This needs to be sorted out. The house sale could fall through and it could end up costing your mum a lot of money . She will have to face this head on even if she doesnt want to. CA are the best people to give advice.

Thanks I will encourage her to do so. There is no house sale as yet, she hasn't had an offer, but I know she would sort this to ensure a buyer was buying the land without the tenant, which is why we're looking into sorting it now

 

[Gluttonforpunishment]

Tell your mother to check her household policy for legal expenses cover. If she has it then use it - now!

She must taken professional legal advice.

Hind sight is a wonderful thing but she has been rather foolish unfortunately in not getting a grazing licence drawn up and signed. This may end up costing her a lot of money, the land and/or both.

 

[Clippy]

Tell your mother to check her household policy for legal expenses cover. If she has it then use it - now!

She must taken professional legal advice.

Hind sight is a wonderful thing but she has been rather foolish unfortunately in not getting a grazing licence drawn up and signed. This may end up costing her a lot of money, the land and/or both.

Yes, I unfortunately agree. If she lives 250 miles away and has left him to his own devices with the land, then she's possibly lost it.

In my friends case, she gave the landowner a bottle of whisky every christmas and it was this act which showed she acknowledged she didn't own the land and she didn't get title.

It might be worth threatening to take all the land as it might encourage the tenant to settle for the little bit he wants rather than spend a lot of money on legal expenses and run the risk of losing the 0.2acre

 

[Kat]

She needs to see a solicitor, quickly. She should consult a solicitor direct rather than mucking about with CAB (which does not have the resources to deal with this sort of thing) she needs to act quickly because of time limits etc and also because the process of getting rid of the tenant/squatter could be lengthy.

It will be worth paying legal fees if she is able to sell the property unfettered.

 

[Mithras]

Your mother really needs to contact a solicitor who specialises in agricultural law and tenancies for proper paid legal advice! Its going to affect the value of her property, so I can't see why she hasn't done already. I honestly wouldn't bother with CAB on this - they simply read advice off a sheet and its far too complex and specialist an issue for them.

As far as I'm aware, agricultural tenancies are generally created implicity by cultivating land and grazing tenancies are far simpler, and if the land is abandoned or the tenancy disputed, it can break the period of positive prescription needed to create a tenancy. But she should be seeing a specialist solicitor NOW!

 

[Tillypup]

Your Mum needs to get some legal advice on this. Adverse possession can be claimed by someone after 10 years, although the Land Registry then give the legal owner 2 years to counter the claim so effectively still 12 years. The "tenant" would have to prove that they had used the land effectively as their own property, if there is any evidence of them stating they didn't own it/where using it with the owners permission etc this can be used to counter their claim.

Hopefully there is some documentation somewhere of a the original agreement, or what your Mum agreed about the 0.2 acres.

It may be worth it in the long run for your Mum to pay the "tenant" something rather than entering into a potentially lengthy and expensive legal battle over the land. Again, this is where a solicitor could advise and would depend on your Mum's situation and the potential value of the field, what it would add to the value of the adjacent property.

 

[Kat]

She should not enter into any agreements with this tenant without seeking legal advice to ensure that it is binding or she could end up in a worse situation, e.g. giving up the 0.2 acres and him still having a claim on the rest.

She needs to resolve this or she will find it very difficult to sell the house.

Wasn't she advised about this when she bought the house? The solicitor dealing with the purchase should have considered the issue of this tenant with her and advised her appropriately so that she did not end up getting into this situation, if not she may need to consider making a claim against her solicitor as well or instead of taking action against the tenant. Especially if the tenant has now got "squatter's rights".

 

[jrp204]

This makes me so angry!! This 'tenant' probably wouldn't walk into a shop and nick a telly but considers it ok to take someones land. If they want land, buy it like eveyone else has to.
We have recently been involved in a similar incident where a house backing onto a field put french windows in and fenced off a bit of the field (big enough for a conservatory) they had told planning they owned the field. These people had asked to buy this bit of ground and were turned down so they tried to say they had had uninterrupted use for 10 yrs. They forgot that my OH had trimmed the field 6 times in the past 10yrs. They have to remove the fence and the land owner is allowed to build a wall on his boundary, 8' high, leaving a window sized hole.
Poster, please get your mum to get some advice asap, could you contract someone, local farmer poss to go in and trim the field or something, even a gardener to strim around a bit just to prove a point. Do not offer anything to the 'tenant'.

 

[Maesfen]

She should not enter into any agreements with this tenant without seeking legal advice to ensure that it is binding or she could end up in a worse situation, e.g. giving up the 0.2 acres and him still having a claim on the rest.

She needs to resolve this or she will find it very difficult to sell the house.

Wasn't she advised about this when she bought the house? The solicitor dealing with the purchase should have considered the issue of this tenant with her and advised her appropriately so that she did not end up getting into this situation, if not she may need to consider making a claim against her solicitor as well or instead of taking action against the tenant. Especially if the tenant has now got "squatter's rights".

Have to agree completely with this. The bungalow opposite us has a 6 acre field which was rented to a local farmer and used for their heifers. Because there was no legal agreement even though they paid rent on it, when the bungalow was sold, the farmer refused outright to release the land unless he was paid top whack for it (£30,000 at the time!). House owner didn't persue it as solicitor told her it was her fault for not having a signed agreement with them that was seasonal; ie, they either rented it for 6 months at a time (seasonal let) or for 364 days and stock have to be off the land on that one day of the year, this was to prove her ownership. Bungalow was sold without the land (lost almost £100,000 on what she would have got with the land! ) and the farmer still has it 365 days.
Needless to say, when we first took over here and they wanted to rent our land (no horses then) we insisted that they signed a full seasonal let tenancy agreement through the local auctioneers; they were furious saying 'but we're friends' which is exactly what they told that neighbour! Don't think so sunshine, we weren't falling for that one again plus they were already doing that to cousins of theirs, not allowing them to use their own land without being paid to get off, disgusting behaviour but unless seasonal let agreements are in place there's not much to be done.
Knowing what I do now, I would be very tempted to give them either an eviction notice or insist that from the next quarter day, a new agreement is made up which stipulates it is only a seasonal tenancy; you will need legal advice for this of course and the local agricultural auctioneers should be able to help you too, it won't be the first or last time this has happened.
Failing that, make them a very small offer to get off the land but be prepared for having to pay out more than a few thousands; I know it's wrong but sadly, these things happen if you don't make things legal right from the start.

 

[bex1984]

Thanks folks, sounds like she might be wise to pay him what he's asking to give up his claim (it is basically the full value of the land). We don't want to get into arguments or ill-feeling with him to be honest.

The house has been in our family for years, and the land was bought as an extra 10 years ago - my mum was advised about the tenant, it was being sorted, but as said previously, for various reasons (major family crisis basically) it never got sorted out.
At the moment just the house is advertised on the market, not the land.

 

[Kat]

Thanks folks, sounds like she might be wise to pay him what he's asking to give up his claim (it is basically the full value of the land). We don't want to get into arguments or ill-feeling with him to be honest.

The house has been in our family for years, and the land was bought as an extra 10 years ago - my mum was advised about the tenant, it was being sorted, but as said previously, for various reasons (major family crisis basically) it never got sorted out.
At the moment just the house is advertised on the market, not the land.

NO!

It would be wise to get legal advice, to pay him without doing so is quite frankly bloody stupid.

If the land was purchased 10 years ago and some negotiations took place back then there is a good chance that he hasn't got squatters rights and your mum could get rid of him without paying him off.

GO AND GET PROFESSIONAL LEGAL ADVICE

If your Mum doesn't she could end up in a worse mess, you are talking about a valuable asset, the cost of legal advice will be minimal compared to the value of the land. Get advice from an expert don't take an important decision based upon a bunch of strangers on the internet who haven't got the first clue. The only people on here with a legal qualification have told you the same thing GO AND GET PROFESSIONAL LEGAL ADVICE.

 

[canteron]

THE LAW HAS CHANGED and presuming the land is registered I believe it is now 40 years that he has to prove he has had unfettered access to the land - it used to be 12, but is now only 12 for land that is unregistered (Look I am working from a very old memory but pretty sure thats right)

SO definitely get proper legal advice, if I am correct and the law has changed then he probably is working from old knowledge.

Good luck.

PS Going to see a solicitor for an initial consultation shouldn't cost that much, get a quote before you go though!!

 

[canteron]

Since we are all saying different things, google 'adverse possession of land' there are many hits such as

http://www.legalcentre.co.uk/property/guide/adverse-possession-of-land/

I haven't read it but it looks as if it might give you the up to date situation.

 

[Tinseltoes]

Hmmmm interesting. I rent a field,first went there in 76 till 89 and from 89 to present day.No written contract,he has the rent (peanuts/beer money) in his hand and I have the gate padlocked. He lost his key to the gate. He hasnt fenced the field properly.Im worried what will happen if he died. Would I be made to leave or could I stand my ground???

 

[Kat]

THE LAW HAS CHANGED and presuming the land is registered I believe it is now 40 years that he has to prove he has had unfettered access to the land - it used to be 12, but is now only 12 for land that is unregistered (Look I am working from a very old memory but pretty sure thats right)

SO definitely get proper legal advice, if I am correct and the law has changed then he probably is working from old knowledge.

Good luck.

PS Going to see a solicitor for an initial consultation shouldn't cost that much, get a quote before you go though!!

I am also working from pretty old knowledge (although land law isn't known for being quick moving and exciting!) that is why I said go to a professional who is an expert and can give advice you can rely on.

This isn't something to deal with via internet forums and google.

 

[Kat]

Hmmmm interesting. I rent a field,first went there in 76 till 89 and from 89 to present day.No written contract,he has the rent (peanuts/beer money) in his hand and I have the gate padlocked. He lost his key to the gate. He hasnt fenced the field properly.Im worried what will happen if he died. Would I be made to leave or could I stand my ground???

You are paying rent so are unlikely to be in adverse possession (squatting) you are probably a tenant with an unwritten contract. If he died you could probably be given notice to quit.

 

[Tillypup]

Not sure where the 40 years comes from, that Legal Centre link seems to give useful info, but, like someone on here has already said, this situation is far better dealt with by a professional.

I've dealt with several adverse possession claims through my professional life (surveyor), I have a basic knowledge of it but always refer back to our legal team for chapter and verse on the update law and advice on the process.

Your Mum's land should be registered with the Land Registry as it was purchased 10 years ago, this should stand her in good stead if the "tenant" does start to kick up a fuss.

If she can gather together ANY info she has on the land and go and see a solicitor she will be able to sort the situation out, sometimes "throwing a bit of money at it", is the best option, but that will depend on the amount of money being spent, the value of the asset (land and house) and what the solicitor says the situation is. If they say the "tenant" has a good case (if indeed they have put an adverse possession claim in), it may be better to spend £X "buying them off" so that you can then sell the house and land with a clear title and get £XXX for it, if you see what I mean. They could say the "tenant" has no case at all in which case you'll be a in strong position to fight any potential claim legally.

 

[Tinseltoes]

You are paying rent so are unlikely to be in adverse possession (squatting) you are probably a tenant with an unwritten contract. If he died you could probably be given notice to quit.

He is hiding the fact Im paying him £20 per month as he doesnt want the council tax office to know hes having it (he gets help with his council tax),told me not to say anything to them,when they came up to see him. He doesnt write anything down or have any proof Im paying him,he never gives me a reciept either.. Refuses to give me a contract.