Large retirement herds for horse with complex lameness?

[ign446]

Hello, this is my first time posting here so hope this is an ok question.

Trying to plan for my large late teens WB long term and spending most of lockdown worrying about doing the right thing. Has anyone here sent a horse to live out 24.7 in a large herd style retirement home with neck arthritis alongside other soundness issues? It sounds an idyllic retirement but is it in his best interest with a complex lameness? (suspensory and SI which we attempted conservatively rehabbing for 3 years with limited success). Horse is on no medication, late teens, seems to enjoy life still. I still hack him at a walk for both my sanity and his soundness whilst current situation means he can't be turned out as much as I'd like.

Horse is otherwise fit and well apart from a few instances of tripping and once struggled to get up in field. Otherwise seems to have great quality of life.

Reason I'm asking is people I know have put in their 2 pence (as we all do) and ideas range from pts to Bute up and keep competing, and I'm wanting some objective advice whilst the vets aren't able to come to non urgent cases on my yard. I want to do what's in the horse's best interest but also am no longer gaining enjoyment from continuing to hack him out at a walk, and don't have an endless pit of money (have found 2 ideal retirement homes at very affordable prices I'm probably just worrying over nothing).

Trying to sell or pass on as companion is an absolute no go, he's a very attractive prospect for a dealer to Bute and jump. I guess I'm worrying that these idyllic retirement places are too good to be true.

Thank you

 

[milliepops]

Do you know why he struggled to get up on that occasion? I think for me that might be the sort of thing that would put me off sending away for retirement, I would not want that to happen again.
I have 2 oldies with various issues and a mare retired through neck arthritis and they all live out 24/7 and look good for the constant movement so I am not averse to the idea - it suits mine well. But I'd be wanting to keep a really close eye if I found one of them down and unable to get up, tbh unless it was clearly a freak one-off and not indicating a further decline in health then I'd be calling time .

 

[TPO]

If I couldnt keep a horse with issues in my care so that I could monitor welfare and/or any deterioration I would pts.

 

[ign446]

Do you know why he struggled to get up on that occasion? I think for me that might be the sort of thing that would put me off sending away for retirement, I would not want that to happen again.
I have 2 oldies with various issues and a mare retired through neck arthritis and they all live out 24/7 and look good for the constant movement so I am not averse to the idea - it suits mine well. But I'd be wanting to keep a really close eye if I found one of them down and unable to get up, tbh unless it was clearly a freak one-off an not indicating a further decline in health then I'd be calling time tbh.

Hi, thanks for your reply - good to hear yours are doing so well and it's not a definite no! But yes this is my concern too. Both herds I've found check twice daily and I'd obviously be at the end of the phone but it's still a concern. I didn't see it as he was on fully livery, but they brought him in, he was absolutely fine, they didn't think it was anything to worry about as wasn't lame after and we still don't know what the issue is. However with him tripping when ridden and intermittent lameness in trot / canter I'm concerned it's all related.

Vet will be called but currently can't get them out for non emergencies, understandably.

 

[milliepops]

I would agree with your reservations I think, it's always difficult when you are not in complete control of their care and have to rely on getting information second hand. As you are already finding that he is struggling in ways that point to his medical issues causing him trouble, I think I'd feel reluctant to send him away. Checking twice a day is kind of the minimum I'd expect especially as they won't be as tuned into what is "normal" for him. a horse that is stuck down can be waiting a long time in between checks.
What is his current management like in terms of stabling/turnout?

 

[ign446]

[/QUOTE]

If I couldnt keep a horse with issues in my care so that I could monitor welfare and/or any deterioration I would pts.

Thank you, it's definitely something to consider. Don't get me wrong though, luckily although money isn't an endless pit I'm not struggling financially so can afford to care for him through retirement, just not on an expensive livery yard. He will also still be insured. I've luckily never had to have one pts before and this is my most treasured horse, he also looks VERY well to an untrained eye so I'm aware emotion can cloud my judgement. Will see what others say and also get another vet opinion. Thanks again for your honest reply

 

[ponyparty]

I would be EXTREMELY cautious about sending a horse with lameness issues away. Only you know your horse really, and you can’t supervise what goes on (or doesn’t) when you’re not there.

I’ve just been burnt badly sending a horse away to rehab - all known issues disclosed to YO - and was not notified that he was lame, crippled in fact, and they tried to conceal it from me. Appreciate this is a slightly different situation but I would not now keep my horse anywhere that I couldn’t go and check him myself at least a few times per week.

The fact he’s struggled to get up... I know only once (that you or others have seen)... that would be shaping the plan in the direction of PTS for me unfortunately.

I’m currently investigating mine for neck arthritis, on top of his other complex issues; I hope I don’t have to make this decision myself any time soon, like yours my boy is late teens (well, 17), but it’s at the back of my mind. I do feel for you.

 

[ign446]

I would agree with your reservations I think, it's always difficult when you are not in complete control of their care and have to rely on getting information second hand. As you are already finding that he is struggling in ways that point to his medical issues causing him trouble, I think I'd feel reluctant to send him away. Checking twice a day is kind of the minimum I'd expect especially as they won't be as tuned into what is "normal" for him. a horse that is stuck down can be waiting a long time in between checks.
What is his current management like in terms of stabling/turnout?

Hi, he currently is on a competition yard, mixed turnout 5 hours a day, large stable the rest. He spent his rehab out 24.7 in a mixed herd though so I know he'd acclimatise fine. Just concerned about his welfare as its not as easy to get to them in such a large field.

 

[ign446]

I would be EXTREMELY cautious about sending a horse with lameness issues away. Only you know your horse really, and you can’t supervise what goes on (or doesn’t) when you’re not there.

I’ve just been burnt badly sending a horse away to rehab - all known issues disclosed to YO - and was not notified that he was lame, crippled in fact, and they tried to conceal it from me. Appreciate this is a slightly different situation but I would not now keep my horse anywhere that I couldn’t go and check him myself at least a few times per week.

The fact he’s struggled to get up... I know only once (that you or others have seen)... that would be shaping the plan in the direction of PTS for me unfortunately.

I’m currently investigating mine for neck arthritis, on top of his other complex issues; I hope I don’t have to make this decision myself any time soon, like yours my boy is late teens (well, 17), but it’s at the back of my mind. I do feel for you.

I'm so sorry you're going through this too. It feels like they're still so young compared to some of the 30 year olds you see going strong doesn't it, breaks my heart. Would you mind pm'ing me where this yard was please? If you don't feel comfortable that's fine, I just obviously don't want to make the same mistake.

 

[ihatework]

As is the case with most things horse related it’s about finding the right place with the right management.

I have seen lots of horses retire to a herd and once the stresses of every day working livery are removed the absolutely flourish. So I would certainly investigate retirement livery but would caution it’s not always ‘cheap’.

What I wouldn’t do is keep a creaky lame older horse in a small paddock in retirement. They would either be buted and very carefully kept ticking over under saddle and pampered or they would be retired on good ground on large acreage in a herd or they would be PTS.

 

[milliepops]

Hi, he currently is on a competition yard, mixed turnout 5 hours a day, large stable the rest. He spent his rehab out 24.7 in a mixed herd though so I know he'd acclimatise fine. Just concerned about his welfare as its not as easy to get to them in such a large field.

Yeah I wasn't asking from an acclimatisation POV but because I know how much my gang improved on going to 24/7 TO. but the big difference is that I brought mine home from a yard and so I can see them several times a day. I know of one person I would trust to have mine on retirement livery but also others that I would not touch with a bargepole and despite talking the talk, the care provided to other horses whose owners were a distance away was more like ponyparty has just experienced.

 

[ign446]

As is the case with most things horse related it’s about finding the right place with the right management.

I have seen lots of horses retire to a herd and once the stresses of every day working livery are removed the absolutely flourish. So I would certainly investigate retirement livery but would caution it’s not always ‘cheap’.

What I wouldn’t do is keep a creaky lame older horse in a small paddock in retirement. They would either be buted and very carefully kept ticking over under saddle and pampered or they would be retired on good ground on large acreage in a herd or they would be PTS.

Both places I've found aren't exactly cheap but are affordable. Many acres and close enough for me to get to relatively quickly if needed. Current yard is great, I've nothing bad to say about them and have been there many years, horse gets the very best of care but they are only small paddocks which is why I don't think it's suitable for him to retire there.

 

[ign446]

Just an idea - does anyone know if there are any facebook groups or anything where people rate retirement liveries? Like the dodgy dealers group?

 

[be positive]

If I were you I would go and see both places and any others that may suit and send him to the best option for the summer, that gives you enough time to decide whether it is working in every way before winter sets in, you can visit him as often as possible and at different times to have a real feel for the place, if he is happy and doing well you can leave him, if not you can either pts or move him, where he is is not ideal for a semi retired horse so he may well thrive on 24/7 turnout and have many good years in retirement.

 

[ign446]

If I were you I would go and see both places and any others that may suit and send him to the best option for the summer, that gives you enough time to decide whether it is working in every way before winter sets in, you can visit him as often as possible and at different times to have a real feel for the place, if he is happy and doing well you can leave him, if not you can either pts or move him, where he is is not ideal for a semi retired horse so he may well thrive on 24/7 turnout and have many good years in retirement.

Thats actually a really good idea, thank you so much! Was planning on looking not just dropping him off but the trial run is a great idea.
I agree, my current yard is brilliant I would recommend it to anyone but I feel he needs a more natural place right now.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I agree with be positive that you need to visit both potential yards and choose the one that you think will best meet his needs. I would be concerned about long-term QOL of a horse with neck arthritis and other issues that has already had trouble getting up once. I would think about giving him the summer and then reviewing him realistically, with vet input in the expectation that I would pts before the winter.
I am sorry, it is always a hard decision to make and it is a lucky horse that has a responsible owner who steps up, rather than selling on, or buting up until the horse can't possibly go on any longer..

 

[ycbm]

I agree with be positive that you need to visit both potential yards and choose the one that you think will best meet his needs. I would be concerned about long-term QOL of a horse with neck arthritis and other issues that has already had trouble getting up once. I would think about giving him the summer and then reviewing him realistically, with vet input in the expectation that I would pts before the winter.
I am sorry, it is always a hard decision to make and it is a lucky horse that has a responsible owner who steps up, rather than selling on, or buting up until the horse can't possibly go on any longer..

I would have written this.

.

 

[Dyllymoo]

Hello

I can only really give you my perspective with my mare who had SI and PSD. She was retired in April of last year, I kept her at the DIY yard as I wanted to make sure she was comfortable enough to be retired. I was actively looking for retirement yards and wanted to make sure I also made the right decision. I didn't want to send her straight away somewhere as I wanted to keep a close eye on her. I knew her and was worried that another yard might not necessarily pick up on subtle declines.

in June she came out of her stable, down to the field (after being in for around 6 hours to go out for overnight turnout) looking stiff and not quite right behind. I thought I would pop her out and see how she was to come in after being out all night, as she could just have been stiff. She was worse the next day. I booked the vets. Someone I know said she didn't look stiff. She did to me.

I took her to the vets and unfortunately she had deteriorated very rapidly and the vet was surprised at how well she was covering things up. Unfortunately we made the decision to PTS on the Monday (that was the Friday).

It was not great, but I'm glad I was able to make sure that she wasn't in pain for long, I worried that another yard who didn't know her wouldn't have spotted how she had deteriorated if that made sense.

Go with your gut, its rarely wrong

 

[Chianti]

I would wait until your vet can come out and have a good discussion with you. Apart from the two yards you know I would put out a plea on facebook. There are often yards that don't advertise because they are so good they don't need to. It is possible to find good retirement places. My last horse ended up on a very small yard - not strictly a retirement yard - that was very good. I still went a few times a week but didn't need to as I trusted the owner completely. Where are you based in the country as someone on here might know a yard? I know a great one in the far east corner of Surrey.

 

[cauda equina]

Or - instead of looking for retirement livery, there might be somewhere offering grass livery near enough that you could keep a close eye on him yourself
There's a yard near me that's a normal diy place but perfect for oldies too

 

[Pinkvboots]

Or - instead of looking for retirement livery, there might be somewhere offering grass livery near enough that you could keep a close eye on him yourself
There's a yard near me that's a normal diy place but perfect for oldies too

This is what I would do and have done it with a horse that couldn't be ridden, I was very fortunate and found grass livery on the same road where I live, lovely big flat fields that drained well living in a herd of 4 mares it was perfect, I checked on her once a day and yo on site checked them each morning and evening, very cheap and we fed hay in winter at an extra cost.

 

[lme]

I wouldn’t rule out non specialist retirement yards. Mine are on a general / competition yard that also caters very well for retired horses and are happy to provide extra feed, give supplements and meds etc and are really good at noticing anything not quite right. My old mare was there from her mid 20s to when we lost her in her early 30s. The oldies live in their own herd and have a beautiful winter field.