Latest on Defra's plans for passports

[JanetGeorge]

Well - they don't really HAVE a plan - they're still faffing about trying to work out how they can meet EU requirements as cheaply as possible!

A letter was sent to all PIOs last week - which suggests they are going to try to establish a single PIO - and that will solve the EU requirement for a national database (and of course Defra closed down our national database last year!)

Details of the EU 'Action Plan' are here - http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/horsemeat/plan_en.print.htm

This was the classic part of the Defra e-mail:

Timescales and details are unclear and we have yet to see a formal proposal, but Defra Ministers have indicated that in principle they are in favour of the Commission’s plans. We will need to look closely at the detail when a formal proposal is received but our current preference is to move to a single passport issuing authority ahead of or at the same time as the requirement for a national database as we believe that this work will in itself deliver the database. We are also in favour of separating the zootechnics and passport regimes in view of the very different functions served by each. In the meantime we still plan to press ahead with our plans to make improvements to the current system nationally.

I recognise that the Commission’s plans have implications for all UK Passport Issuing Organisations and I will write to you again once the finer details begin to emerge.

So - the underlying message to all PIOs is: "We plan to put you out of business when we get around to it - but in the meantime we expect your total co-operation!" WHAT planet are these people living on???

 

[Maesfen]

TBH, a one PIO system with overstamping by breed societies should have been done right from the start. Same should have been sorted for microchips, one supplier so all scanners could read them. Weatherbys (and by the same token, the Kennel Club), never have a problem, they should have learnt from them instead of a free for all of PIO that supply crap passports, service and security.

 

[JanetGeorge]

TBH, a one PIO system with overstamping by breed societies should have been done right from the start.

That MIGHT have worked but for Breed Societies, it's FAR more than 'over-stamping'. Pedigree checking, DNA testing, etc etc etc are the costly and time consuming part of passport issuing. How the hell would all that be 'merged' with a single PIO - AND kept at a 'sensible' cost to breeders??

 

[Alec Swan]

Well - they don't really HAVE a plan - .......

....... WHAT planet are these people living on???

It's the Planet of DEFRA. One of the curious aspects of the inhabitants, is that they are either stone deaf, and can't even lip-read, or they have an inherited from of terminal stupidity.

It would seem that the mare line goes back to that woman, Margaret Beckett. Were she a ewe, she'd have been culled as a shearling. She reinforced the Government view that no matter how stupid the decision, sidestepping the responsibility was simplicity itself, and what you did was that you employed the simple expedience, of blaming someone else.

The jury is out on the origins of their problem, but it's deep seated and terminal. Those who inhabit this planet, have the rather strange ability to invite in those who they laughingly refer to as "Stakeholders" (that's those who will be affected by their decisions), and then fly in the face of all the well meaning and well supported advice.

DEFRA are sadly on a hiding to nothing. With the planned for annual decrease in the SFP, the tide is already starting to turn, and those who are no longer in receipt of the benefits which previously kept them in line, are ploughing ahead, with a separate agenda.

Alec.

 

[Maesfen]

That MIGHT have worked but for Breed Societies, it's FAR more than 'over-stamping'. Pedigree checking, DNA testing, etc etc etc are the costly and time consuming part of passport issuing. How the hell would all that be 'merged' with a single PIO - AND kept at a 'sensible' cost to breeders??

I appreciate that but with one central PIO which gives everything the mandatory passport/UELN/chip and with DNA a requirement from ALL equines at time of registering, (exactly the same as Weatherbys do now) then only if people needed to they could go on to their BS or show society for overstamping and pedigree checking. The BS would not have the cost of supplying passports/chips (the AHS send out their own chips with passport paraphernalia which makes life simple - if expensive!) or needing DNA so wouldn't need to charge as much as before. Any change of owner would go to the central PIO who would update and automatically flag the BS too. Simplistic view I know, but it could work much better in the long run.

 

[Zuzan]

Question:

DEFRA and EU are really only concerned about food security / fraud... so the only requirement for passports is to ensure animals are OK in terms of meat production..

So really the only horses that require DEFRA passports are those going for meat..

If a horse (as is mine) has it's current passport signed out for entering the food chain then as far as I can see there is no need to re-issue a DEFRA passport which states the same all over again..

Only horses bred / produced for meat will need to be entered in the new DEFRA passport scheme..

So Breed societies can sign out horses (mine did before I owned her) and therefore not be required to work within the DEFRA scheme.

Few horses / ponies are PURPOSEFULLY bred / produced for meat in this country so very few will need to be registered via the DEFRA scheme.. These are the equines that need to be regulated for food security.

I hope (probably vainly) that we end up with domestic (sport / hobby / pet equines) not being allowed into the food chain AT ALL.

And those who make a money out of cheap horsemeat (because equines aren't CURRENTLY properly regulated for the food chain) cease to be able do so.

That is the real issue and the reason why horsemeat is an issue. ..it is cheap to produce as it lacks effective traceability / quality control / welfare standards (in terms of meat production).

If proper systems are put in place horsemeat will cease to be cheap / black marketable. Which is how it should be.

 

[JanetGeorge]

Simplistic view I know, but it could work much better in the long run.

In theory, yes - it MIGHT work! But you have to remember that this is an IT-based project - the Government will be deciding who gets it. Now think back to EVERY recent IT project the Government (this one, the last one, the one before that) has been behind. Some of them have gone 4x or more over budget, some have been 2 years over completion time, some haven't worked - and most of them came under ALL those categories!

It's not just horse passports that get 'mis-handled' in 'official' hands - my haylage supplier was telling me about his latest run-in with Defra. He sold a bullock at market - all the paperwork correct. Next he hears - from officialdom - is that it hadn't gone for slaughter. Finally they announce they've sorted it - and his heifer had gone to Ireland. Seriously, the Defra official didn't know that there was a rather major difference between a bullock and a heifer!!!!

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

....... Seriously, the Defra official didn't know that there was a rather major difference between a bullock and a heifer!!!!

During the 2001 F&M out break, a friend of a friend, asked DEFRA if there would be a movement restriction for her to take her horse to Spain for a competition. Write in, they said. So she did. The reply came back that the journey out wouldn't be a problem, but the return journey would be difficult, as the horse was a cloven hoofed animal. You couldn't make up such stupidity, could you?

Alec.

 

[hackneylass2]

Zuzan, I agree with every word! The reason we are seeing fields full of badly bred, badly kept and in a lot of cases, badly slaughtered equines is that bucks can be made. Joe Public in general don't give a toss how their meat is produced, low prices will win every time, which is such a shame for UK meat producers who do care and have a pride in their produce.

I may hold an old fashioned and currently un-hip view on equines, which is that they are not meat producing animals, but their status at the moment is in nobody's favour, the horses or their consumers. We either ban UK horses going for meat or get used to the horse being farmed like cattle, which would be a sorry state of affairs IMO but would at least afford the animals some protection and their consumers also.

 

[Rollin]

France DID have one PIO until DEFRA via the EU Commission FORCED France to change its legislation (Nov 2012) to permit breeders to obtain passports from ANY PIO from ANY EU member state!!

So even if the UK is obliged to go down one PIO route, you can all buy your passports from France and for those UK Breed societies who already have agreements in place in France, or daughter stud books, this may be a more practical option than anything DEFRA manage to cobble together in 6 months??????

I wonder if now both DEFRA and the EU will have to back peddle and return to allowing France, to insist that, their National Stud is the only PIO allowed to issue passports for foals born on French soil.

You might be interested to know that finally AFTER CBHS council had agreed to come to an agreement with France on the issue of passports for foals born in France DEFRA told CBHS not to sign the agreement. As they did not forbid the Dales Pony Society from signing up - this of course is discriminatory under EU law.

 

[Rollin]

That MIGHT have worked but for Breed Societies, it's FAR more than 'over-stamping'. Pedigree checking, DNA testing, etc etc etc are the costly and time consuming part of passport issuing. How the hell would all that be 'merged' with a single PIO - AND kept at a 'sensible' cost to breeders??

France does!! My Shagya passports are obtained from IFCE with a Shagya logo, DNA testing if required and automatic registration in the mother stud book. I do not need to send my passport away for an overstamp - that is dealt with before the passport is issued.

ALSO IFCE enforce whatever the mother stud books require in terms of swabs and vaccinations before issuing stallion covering books. Coverings are notified on line, foal births are notified on line within 15 days, foal and maternal deaths, on line to Zootechnics and if you want to find out the 'performance record' of any horse on the French National Database you can find that TOO on line.

However, all pedigree horses must be entered onto the NED (SIRE) before breeding and before covering books are issued - so checking and entering pedigree data is not a problem.

I am sure my husband would be willing to share the flow chart he prepared for CBHS to demonstrate how all this can be done by one organisation.

 

[elijahasgal]

PIO should do the majority, but have a central database to check that horses that have previously been chipped are not being issued another passport. That way they could maintain their job as is, and issue passports
The central database could be cloned from pre-existing database in regards to say cattle, that they have in existance. Overstamping would be easy as in ticking boxes.
PIO having checked should enter data to main database, accessable by all.
Surely that nice straightforward plan would cover everyone?
It would also be a second cover if the PIO data got corrupted or went missing.

 

[Goldenstar]

I just am not interested any more it's just more cost and hassle for good owners while the people causing most of the issues do the same as ever.
But I really fear that veterinary drugs that we all depend on will be under threat if we don't get it sorted out.
Stringent checks should be done on every horse going for human consumption , no half measures , a horse once signed out should be out for life no way round it.
There are other uses for horse carcasses such as zoos etc.
The whole things a mess of epic proportions .

 

[Alec Swan]

....... a horse once signed out should be out for life no way round it.
There are other uses for horse carcasses such as zoos etc.
....... .

Are you saying that it's wrong for horses to enter the human food chain, but OK for them to be fed to zoo animals?

Alec.

 

[Goldenstar]

Are you saying that it's wrong for horses to enter the human food chain, but OK for them to be fed to zoo animals?

Alec.

Yes I am because of the medication thing , we risk losing our veterinary drugs if contaminated horse meat keeps getting into the food chain.
I don't care if horses are in the human food chain as long as people know what there eating but I care more that the risk of contamination leads to restrictions on what drugs we can give.
We can't expect sensible new rules from the EU in the wake of the horse eat scandle they could decide to do almost anything.

 

[sywell]

The Annex to the passport for registered horses has to have information that can only be supplied by the studbook of origin for the horse and 504/2008 says
"1. Member States shall ensure that the identification
document referred to in Article 5(1) for registered equidae is
issued by the following bodies (issuing bodies):
(a) the organisation or association officially approved or
recognised by the Member State, or by the official agency
of the Member State concerned, both as referred to in the
first indent of Article 2(c) of Directive 90/427/EEC, which
manages the stud book for that breed of animal, as referred
to in Article 2(c) of Directive 90/426/EEC; or
(b) a branch with its headquarters in a Member State of an
international association or organisation which manages
horses for competition or racing, as referred to in
Article 2(c) of Directive 90/426/EEC."
This would have to be altered if DEFRA wishes to issue all passports and I doubt if major equine nations in the EU would agree to any change.
DEFRA has already been told by SANCO that it was never intended that there should be more than one ID only PIO so why did they approve over 12 in the first case.
The number of studbook PIOs is irrelevant if in the first place DEFRA had followed the German way and had a real time database where all data was kept and PIOs logged in to change their own data. the German VIT database has over 3.5 million horses on it including competition records date place and rider. As all the staff in the passport team have recently changed I do not think they will have much detailed knowledge as most of the unpaid studbook registrars.