Lathargy not Cushings

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aussieblue

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My 16hh middle weight cob is suffering from an as yet undiagnosed condition that is puzzling both myself and my vet. He is what the vet described as excersise intollerent, he walks out fine with energy but the minute he sees a hill he behaves as though he's just finished the Grand National! looks very stressed, stops every 3 or 4 strides and huffs and puffs with seriously looking distress. This is the second consecutive autumn that he has had these symptons and the finding results are so far as follows, Cushings blood test normal, full blood count found slightly low on Liver function (5.4) and slight anemia (thought told not to worry about this) highish levels of something that measures muscle stress (tie up) told it measures 1000 but ths could go up to 10,000 in a severly tied up horse, vet wants me to have a muscle biopsy now but i think this is barking up the wrong tree, my horse is/ was otherwise very fit, we compete in Trec and finished 5th in our leage this year, we complete 12 mile pleasure rides all year so itsnot as though he's not up for work, he's 12 years old and i've owned him for 3 years. I have a feeling its someting to do with him growing a winter coat, he grows one like ive never seen, really thick, needless to say he is fully clipped all year, but i just wonder if all his enery goes into growing his coat, has anyone ever heard of something like this? would love to hear from you if you have
 
My gang of Dales ponies were showing exercise intolerance, culminating earlier this year in me thinking it must be something environmental and trying to get to the bottom of it.

One is so badly affected that he can only manage about 20metres of trot on some days, and then grinds to a halt. It was downhills that were most difficult for him, but the regular grinding to a halt sounds familiar.

Two other ponies do the grinding to a halt but not so dramatically.

I did have a muscle biopsy done on the worst one - it found nothing abnormal. We looked into various things.

I ended up thinking it was probably selenium (based on hay and grass analyses which both showed only 0.04 to 0.05mg/kg selenium, which unrestricted would provide 40-50% of the recommended daily intake of selenium. My gang were on a restricted diet, so in their case they were only getting about a third of what they should have been getting.

I opted to give a high level of selenium (having looked at various studies, and reading NRC guidelines etc) and it appears this may have kicked them all into liver disease, which has now become the principle worry. The high level supplement only continued for 2 months, and then stopped that when liver problems kicked in, They have now been on a normal balancer for nearly 3 months.

Over the last 2 months, their CK has shown a significant decrease (4 out of 5 ponies decreased dramatically - one now in the lab's normal range for the first time ever; 2 within the "high normal" recognised by world experts on muscle stuff (350), and one close to that).

The worst pony is regularly around 3,000 CK. He's the one who has not shown much change, although there is a very slow downward trend in the ck.

The others' CK levels are around:

regularly 700 has reduced to 230
regularly 800 has reduced to 514
regularly in the 300s has reduced to 257 (was 210 last month)
regularly 550-600 is now 350

and with that kind of change for 2 months now, I think we may be getting somewhere.

So personally I would opt for one of the first things being feeding a full ration of a good balancer (like one of the Topspec range).

If you wanted, you could easily have a forage analysis done of hay/haylage/grass to check selenium levels, but even without an analysis I've come to realise that a full ration of balancer is really important.

Beyond that, there are things like diet (keeping it low starch, minimum or no grains etc) and maybe looking at EPSM as an option (although that seems to show more as a reluctance to work after 15 minutes or so, rather than a reluctance at all times).

Do let us know how you get on.

Sarah
 
I've come across a few horses that do this and a selium/vit E supplement has helped. Seems to be a coat change issue, vets mostly stumped to an "actual" cause! Horses aye!
 
Hello and thank you for replying, i'm just so relieved there is someone else out there with a simular problem and i'm not the only one! My boy does exactly that, just grinds to a halt which is so not like him, as i said he had simular problems this time last year but not as bad as they are this year, which is why the vet thought it must be early cushings which apparently presents its self worse in the autumn.

Aus (my cob) is fed spillers balancer all year round and no other hard feed, at the recommended rate, he lives out all summer and in at night during the winter but grazing all day. He shares his4 acre field with only his 1 field companion and we grow our own hay so i know its ragwort free.

I'm not going to go through with the muscle biopsy but will probably wait unitl it passes and measure what changes, i'm presuming he will get over this just as he did last year, but will note exactly when and if i've done anything different.
Out of interest do your ponies grow extra (abnormal) thick winter coats? Aus' is so thick and wooly you cannot see his sheath! hence the clipping.

Thanks for coming back will keep you posted.
 
If he's getting the full ration of balancer, he should be getting enough selenium. However, maybe it's worth trying a different make of balancer for a few months and see if that makes a difference. I think Spillers have 1mg of selenium (as a mix of organic and inorganic selenium) - you could always try Topspec, who only use inorganic selenium in case that makes a difference.

But really if your boy is on a full ration anyway, I guess that makes it way less likely as an option.

Has he switched to his winter routine (ie in at night)? Did the problems appear after that change? Just wondering if there's a significant difference in minerals in his hay vs the grass? Any other significant management changes around the time that he started to show the problem?

You could always opt for the cheap option of having a hair sample tested (eg by Animal Genetics in Cornwall) for PSSM (aka EPSM). I think it's around £30 a sample now, and could at least rule in/out type 1 EPSM, though a biopsy would still be needed to rule out type 2 EPSM.

I found this article by M Aleman very useful when first looking into possible muscle problems with my gang:

http://maquette.respe.net/system/files/documents_equine_muscle_disorders.pdf

Also, worth googling Stephanie Valberg (Minnesota) and Beth Valentine for other stuff on EPSM/PSSM.

Had you made any management changes when he improved last year (diet, turnout, exercise etc)? That might give other clues at to the cause.

Oh, and worth knowing that the main muscle enzyme, CK, will tend to be raised when a horse is stressed, after it's exercised, after it's travelled etc, so to get a true resting level it's worth having the blood done at home after a few days of no work and no travel, especially if you are trying to find out whether the first result was genuine or not.

Sarah
 
Hi aussieblue, quick question, how much does your horse drink, pee and sweat? May seem an odd question, but my cob was also very lethargic a few weeks ago and not drinking or sweating much, no other symptoms, had cushings test, not conclusive.
He's also the mega hairy type! :D
Started giving him extra salts (a mix of regular and Losalt for potassium) and he has become a lot better. Sweating more, a nice wet mouth when ridden, peeing more and a LOT more energetic! :)
Think he may have been slightly dehydrated, don't really know why, but he has been on soaked hay and no grass for ages as he's dieting, and sodium and potassium losses are very high from hay soaked for a long time, so this could have resulted in deficiencies in these electrolytes.
Also I believe CK levels can increase due to mild dehydration? not totally sure on that but think I read it somewhere. Might be something to consider. Hope you work it out in the end, good luck :)
 
Funny you should mention that, i too soak my hay due to weight which is what i thought was the reason why he didnt need to drink much, so no he is not drinking much, he isnt sweating much either but i put that down to clipping (always clipped due to hairy monster type!) and for long not exerting himself for long enough to sweat!

Vet via Spillers has recommended feeding performance balancer for two months which will apparently give him a bit boost in Vit E and Salenium so we are trying this for now, (started today) if no improvement i'll go for the muscle biopsy (vet did want to do this now saying the results would show if deficient in the vitamins etc but i'd rather try this first, especially as its winter and not a lot happening. will keep you posted, thanks again.
 
What's the ggt level as sounds like liver disease. Get a full liver blood done. Under no circumstances feed a balancer until you know the cause. They contain too much protein and will overload the liver! Pm me for more help
 
Hi, thanks for responding but am concerned over your comments, am interested in what qualifies you to have this opinion when two Vets, Spillers and Saracen feeds do not?
 
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