Laura collett, air jacket did inflate says h&h

[chaps89]

With the H&H article re: EXO bp's it was first published 2008, I get the feeling the last updated march 2013 is just when they may have edited some of the website/that page from a techy aspect rather than the article itself?

 

[DollyPentreath]

Re The Exo.. I've spoken to several professionals regarding them and they were both of the opinion the risk of neck or base of spine injury is too high. I couldn't quite pin down the mechanics of their theories but in general they thought that if they're going to face life paralysed they'd rather is was from the waist down than the neck down. Maybe a professional thinks differently to an amateur, but neither would consider wearing one for the same reason. They took the attitude that walking away totally unscathed will never be possible and that something has to give somewhere, seemed to me (in the case of the Exo) they both thought the neck would be too vulnerable.

I don't have an opinion either way as I haven't ridden in an air jacket or Exo!

 

[SpottedCat]

Re The Exo.. I've spoken to several professionals regarding them and they were both of the opinion the risk of neck or base of spine injury is too high. I couldn't quite pin down the mechanics of their theories but in general they thought that if they're going to face life paralysed they'd rather is was from the waist down than the neck down. Maybe a professional thinks differently to an amateur, but neither would consider wearing one for the same reason. They took the attitude that walking away totally unscathed will never be possible and that something has to give somewhere, seemed to me (in the case of the Exo) they both thought the neck would be too vulnerable.

I don't have an opinion either way as I haven't ridden in an air jacket or Exo!

See I can't quite grasp that, as the rigid part is so far away from my neck that in order for it to create a pivot point, my head would no longer be attached to my body. At which point I think whether I have been saved from my horse falling on me or not is probably the least of my worries! I've looked and looked at it - but the hyperflexion in the neck you'd need for my neck to hit the exo is such that I don't think it'd be the exo causing the issue, I think the hyperflexion would do the trick all on its own!

BTW, I'm not trying to be dismissive/flippant - I actually looked into this quite a lot when I heard it was what people were worried about, and I think either I am missing something or they haven't seen one on someone?

 

[cptrayes]

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Plus the ridiculousness of having to put your name on a list with the secretary so they can tell people you're wearing one - IMO as a perfectly acceptable bit of kit, paramedics shouldn't need to be warned you are going XC in one! As you say, they have two allen keys in them, and since the cage is simply a frame, they could easily take a scalpel or a pair of scissors to the foam inserts as you can with a normal BP, so quite why the high drama about them I do not know!

Because they can't cut the frame away to pump your heart. They have to unscrew it with the allen key so they have to know where it is and how to use it, and the delay in keeping your blood circulating meanwhile may result in death or brain damage.

Likewise, if you have a neck or a back fracture they have to slide you out of it, risking destabilization of the fracture.

 

[SpottedCat]

Because they can't cut the frame away to pump your heart. They have to unscrew it with the allen key so they have to know where it is and how to use it, and the delay in keeping your blood circulating meanwhile may result in death or brain damage.

Likewise, if you have a neck or a back fracture they have to slide you out of it, risking destabilization of the fracture.

Except that's not true, is it? They can quite easily cut the foam away and access your heart - it's not like it's a rigid box around you! And they don't have to slide you out of it because the allen keys let it come away into two completely separate halves, so it's no different from a normal BP in that respect.

 

[DollyPentreath]

I can completely see your point S_C, but both were adamant in thinking the Exo created an increased risk of neck injury (not that I agree/disagree at this point in time). Maybe that was the BE rumour mill in action! But I can't come up with another explanation for why the pros don't wear them. Both also great riders who have competed at the highest level too. On another note, I was chatting to one of them today who seemed very positive about the motorcycle technology which is on it's way to the BP field.

 

[cptrayes]

Except that's not true, is it? They can quite easily cut the foam away and access your heart - it's not like it's a rigid box around you! And they don't have to slide you out of it because the allen keys let it come away into two completely separate halves, so it's no different from a normal BP in that respect.

I wasn't aware the cage would give room for a double handed pump over your heart, but I still would not want the delay while they fiddled with cutting the body protector away from the cage.

Regarding the destabilization, the cage is curved, surely, even undone, and therefore you have to be rolled or lifted, not simply slid, off the bottom half after they've messed about unscrewing it from the top top half?

I tried one in Derby House when they were being sold and I felt that it would make the top half of my body disproportionately heavy and make me more likely to fall off if I got out of balance. I certainly wouldn't wear one to school in like I do my air jacket. I'm unconvinced they would ever have caught on widely however good the marketing was.

 

[SpottedCat]

I can completely see your point S_C, but both were adamant in thinking the Exo created an increased risk of neck injury (not that I agree/disagree at this point in time). Maybe that was the BE rumour mill in action! But I can't come up with another explanation for why the pros don't wear them. Both also great riders who have competed at the highest level too. On another note, I was chatting to one of them today who seemed very positive about the motorcycle technology which is on it's way to the BP field.

One pro told me they didn't look professional enough, and another thought the weight might have enough of an effect at the top levels to make a difference.

Honestly though, I think mostly its that pros don't think they will ever have a rotational fall - neither do the rest of us! If you did think you were likely to, then you wouldn't get in the start box, the fear would be paralysing! I know we all acknowledge it 'could' happen, but do any of us think it 'will' happen? I'd guess no. I'd guess that like anything else risky, we assume it is something which will happen to other people.

 

[cptrayes]

Surely no-one can believe that a paramedic can pump their heart in this?


http://www.bodycage.co.uk/exo/index.html

 

[SpottedCat]

No, you're right it can't be done and all people who wear exos are fools. The only true path is that of the air jacket. Are we done here?

Whilst you might be right about your heart (although in mine you can actually slide your hands under the front and access my sternum no problem, but there we go), how many people eventing have had heart failure not associated with crush injuries? An incredibly small number - if any. I remember reading an article about it but can't find it.

 

[teapot]

Surely no-one can believe that a paramedic can pump their heart in this?


http://www.bodycage.co.uk/exo/index.html

Depends on how high the metal front plate comes up a person's breastbone for a start.

To be honest though, if you're wearing a now inflated P2 and a bp, CPR still isn't going to be immediate because they've got to come off before you can start.


ETS: just seen SC's post - there was going to say, there must be room between chest and the cage. The motion of CPR doesn't need masses of room given the chest wall and rib cage takes the pressure. Would just mean potentially kneeling in a different place.

 

[popsdosh]

Surely no-one can believe that a paramedic can pump their heart in this?


http://www.bodycage.co.uk/exo/index.html

I suspect if Laura had been wearing an exo heart massage would not have been needed so your argument is self defeating in that respect.

 

[cptrayes]

I suspect if Laura had been wearing an exo heart massage would not have been needed so your argument is self defeating in that respect.

Did Laura need heart massage this time? I don't think so, the discussion of heart massage was theoretical as far as I was concerned. One of her main injuries is liver damage. That cage wouldn't help that much, would it, it's far too short.

I wonder what the death stats are for ruptured spleen or other internal bleeding compared with upper chest?

The high level riders don't want exos or they would have had them when they were on sale in shops like Derby House. On the other hand the vast majority of them wear air jackets. Laura's jacket is unlikely, in my opinion as a wearer, to have caused her more damage. The dispersal of point loading over a larger area, and the dissipation of force as the airbags deform under pressure might just have saved her life. Whatever, thank heavens she is OK.

 

[Lolo]

Surely no-one can believe that a paramedic can pump their heart in this?


http://www.bodycage.co.uk/exo/index.html

Seeing as CPR is pretty much useless (less than 30% success rate, I think in otherwise healthy and fit people with no previous cardiac history and minor trauma), I'd rather something that prevented crush injuries to start with, as those are what cause the shock that stops your heart.

A P2 will compress. You will still be squished. You'll be squished slower, which prevents minor injuries very effectively. In a crushing situation, I am hugely unconvinced by it's effectiveness. In most other falls, I genuinely support it and would prefer my sister wore one when she went over solid fences... For rotationals? Meh. A cage, or luck is what you really want.

 

[popsdosh]

Did Laura need heart massage this time? I don't think so, the discussion of heart massage was theoretical as far as I was concerned. One of her main injuries is liver damage. That cage wouldn't help that much, would it, it's far too short.

I wonder what the death stats are for ruptured spleen or other internal bleeding compared with upper chest?

The high level riders don't want exos or they would have had them when they were on sale in shops like Derby House. On the other hand the vast majority of them wear air jackets. Laura's jacket is unlikely, in my opinion as a wearer, to have caused her more damage. The dispersal of point loading over a larger area, and the dissipation of force as the airbags deform under pressure might just have saved her life. Whatever, thank heavens she is OK.

Her main injury at the time was a severley bruised and collapsed lung which is why she was put in an induced coma to give it time to heal while her breathing was done for her. She was not breathing when the paramedics got to her so in theory not far from needing heart massage maybe!!!!
A lot of the top riders wear air jackets because they are paid to!!! Thats not saying there is not a use for them but dont get over carried away with thinking they can stop you being killed in a rotational fall as most likely it wont have inflated by the time the damage is done.

 

[lannerch]

Why does every thread like this become a competition to prove how much better the exo is to the p2, both jackets have their merits and their faults, both developed with safety in mind.
For those who really believe Laura's air jacket did not reduced the severity of Laura's injuries are IMO lacking a lot of common sense, and intent on p2 bashing.
To be released from hospital so soon after such a bad fall is amazing , that said if Laura had been wearing an exo we will never know if her injuries would have been less or more severe.
I would like to see more research done with the exo to dispell or prove any rumours of restriction or risk to the spine as the concept is excellent, but that doesn't mean the p2 is rubbish either. Personally at the moment I would choose the p2 but only because the majority favour .

 

[Topaz Tiger]

I'm not intent on P2 bashing, nor that I think the EXO is wonderful, I've just said i believe in a crush injury, the EXO is the best bet and there are obviously many different types of fall.
My concern with the P2 is the perception that once the air jacket inflates, the rider has a cushion of air around them protecting them, but from my understanding of it, the air jacket is not rigid enough to protect the rider from the weight of a horse.
FWIW I don't wear either, I wear a racesafe, which has also had criticism against it for the various small panels potentially not dissipating the force as much as 1 large panel.

 

[Lolo]

Seeing as I never wear a BP, and the last BP I owned was one from the second hand rail in the dustiest corner of a tackshop which caught on my saddle if I fell off and popped open, I would argue my interest was almost entirely academic.

I'm about to start a 3rd year dissertation, and I would love to investigate the ability of various body protectors to dissipate a high impact shock load (and how to best model the loading of a variety of falls). I'm trying to work out who I need to email about it!

 

[_GG_]

I suspect if Laura had been wearing an exo heart massage would not have been needed so your argument is self defeating in that respect.

Certain head injuries can cause heart to stop beating so not such a self defeating argument really. Even hats can't protect from all damage or a kick in the face.

 

[Eventer96]

My parents bought me a P2 in the knowledge that it wouldn't protect me from crush injuries. As far as I'm concerned the P2 will maybe protect me from minor injuries (bruising etc.), it won't protect me from being crushed... I think you just need to hope and pray in that situation. Tried an EXO and I didn't get on with it at all, it was far too heavy for my liking. I wear a P2 to protect me from minor injuries, I'm out of eventing for a while whilst we pursue a dressage career. The risk of crush injuries is far far lower in dressage so for the time being I'm hoping I'm safe!

I'm so pleased Laura had a lucky escape, she owes her life to luck and all the safety equipment she was wearing that day!

 

[DollyPentreath]

Why does every thread like this become a competition to prove how much better the exo is to the p2, both jackets have their merits and their faults, both developed with safety in mind.
For those who really believe Laura's air jacket did not reduced the severity of Laura's injuries are IMO lacking a lot of common sense, and intent on p2 bashing.
To be released from hospital so soon after such a bad fall is amazing , that said if Laura had been wearing an exo we will never know if her injuries would have been less or more severe.
I would like to see more research done with the exo to dispell or prove any rumours of restriction or risk to the spine as the concept is excellent, but that doesn't mean the p2 is rubbish either. Personally at the moment I would choose the p2 but only because the majority favour .

FWIW I think healthy discussion on the pros and cons of both is a good thing. I don't think anyone is product bashing.

That being said, I totally agree it's wonderful to see Laura out of hospital so soon.

 

[PapaFrita]

Just backs up what I said all along when P2 said they would stop serious injury! you are still the meat in the sandwich when a horse falls on you and you still get crushed.
I am not against people using them but they should be told the truth about what they can stop happening.

This is what I've always thought!! Doesn't matter if there is a 'buffer' of air, you're still compressed under half a ton of horse.

 

[destiny11]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/equestrian/23466911

Thought this was relevant to this discussion.

 

[Topaz Tiger]

I saw that.... Even Tina Cook was recommending them quite strongly in her column in this weeks h&h.... Am beginning to wonder what everyone is seeing in them that I'm not.....

 

[Lolo]

But here's the thing- how does she know?! It's a hugely emotive subject for her, and she spent a lot of the time unconscious, with serious injuries. Same with paramedics saying it saved her life. Paramedics aren't the people to make that call. No one can.

I just don't get how a P2 can prevent serious squidgery. I get how, in high impact falls where the rider hits something hard they work exceptionally well- airbags are very good at dissipating force, hence their use in cars. However, in situations where the horse and the ground are being prevented from meeting by the rider, the rider is going to take a huge compressive force. Unless they wear something that prevents that force from meeting their body, such as a cage, this is unavoidable.

So how does the P2 prevent injuries? I think the way it deforms around your body will mean the forces are better spread out, although still there. And because of the spreading they will be marginally less high impact, although still there.

I've done an about turn from where I stood on these jackets when they first came out and would prefer my sister to wear one if she could afford one. But I wish people would stop saying they saved a life, and other highly emotive language because there is no evidence to support this. Testimonials from event riders who are just grateful to still be alive following a horrible fall aren't helpful IMO- when was the last time an event rider sat down with a decent understanding of force dissipation and high impact loading and studied their fall to try and analyse how the P2 helped? Let me guess at never...

 

[Lolo]

I saw that.... Even Tina Cook was recommending them quite strongly in her column in this weeks h&h.... Am beginning to wonder what everyone is seeing in them that I'm not.....

What people are seeing is "It saved my life", a statement made because she is still alive. Her BP and hat saved her life too. Some good luck too, and the quick action of highly trained paramedics.

But it's easier to advocate a P2 than it is for people to start saying "I will only compete at events where paramedics trained to this standard with easy access to good hospitals are attending", or even "I was lucky". Riders are superstitious people, no matter what anyone says, and when you're doing a sport where you know a silly mistake can end in death you'll take what you can regardless of what evidence there is. People still wear stocks to support their necks FFS.

 

[TarrSteps]

Genuine question. . .are there REALLY people out there who think any piece of kit is going to GUARANTEE that they walk away if a horse going 20mph lands on them?? Horses in general and eventing in particular carries significant risk - people can and do die doing it with some small regularity. I just assume participants know and assume that risk. Obviously safety equipment is a big part of staying safe but the various options have various levels and types of protection. It's personal choice what you use.

For that matter, do people believe all the advertising they read? These are PRODUCTS. Companies are trying to SELL them to you. I'm not saying any of them are being anything less than truthful but surely it's obvious they are inclined to highlight the aspects that make consumers want to purchase their product. It seems very odd to rely on a seller to make your mind up. (Mind you, I'm a bit flummoxed when people do that when buying horses, too!)

For the people saying the P2 did not prevent injury to Laura and therefor must be of no use, how do you know? She's not dead. Seat belts save lives but no one thinks they save EVERY life!

Sorry to rant. These are useful discussions to have for exactly the reason I stated above, because the make people think and consider their options. But I think there is actually something quite dangerous when people take away the idea that the right equipment will mitigate risk.

 

[Topaz Tiger]

But here's the thing- how does she know?! It's a hugely emotive subject for her, and she spent a lot of the time unconscious, with serious injuries. Same with paramedics saying it saved her life. Paramedics aren't the people to make that call. No one can.

I just don't get how a P2 can prevent serious squidgery. I get how, in high impact falls where the rider hits something hard they work exceptionally well- airbags are very good at dissipating force, hence their use in cars. However, in situations where the horse and the ground are being prevented from meeting by the rider, the rider is going to take a huge compressive force. Unless they wear something that prevents that force from meeting their body, such as a cage, this is unavoidable.

So how does the P2 prevent injuries? I think the way it deforms around your body will mean the forces are better spread out, although still there. And because of the spreading they will be marginally less high impact, although still there.

I've done an about turn from where I stood on these jackets when they first came out and would prefer my sister to wear one if she could afford one. But I wish people would stop saying they saved a life, and other highly emotive language because there is no evidence to support this. Testimonials from event riders who are just grateful to still be alive following a horrible fall aren't helpful IMO- when was the last time an event rider sat down with a decent understanding of force dissipation and high impact loading and studied their fall to try and analyse how the P2 helped? Let me guess at never...

This is my understanding of the air jacket as well....

 

[glamourpuss]

Lolo the section where you said the Airjacket deforming is spreading out the force is what I think is happening in these falls. I think (but VERY happy to admit what I know about this aspect of physics could be written on the back of a stamp) that some of the kinetic energy of the falling horse is *somehow* being absorbed by the Airjacket so less force/energy is reaching the rider.
Now that's all well & good BUT several years down the line I can find no further research that has been done on air jackets particularly in crush scenarios. I think this is a really poor show from all of the manufacturers.

Even though I wear an air jacket & believe they are a step forward in safety I will stand by the saying
'The plural of anecdote is not fact'
Yes, currently we have these riders surviving pretty nasty falls & shouting
'Yes, yes it was my Airjacket that saved me' but quite frankly I believe some further testing is long overdue. I would like test results over anecdotes please!!

 

[philamena]

Even though I wear an air jacket & believe they are a step forward in safety I will stand by the saying
'The plural of anecdote is not fact'
Yes, currently we have these riders surviving pretty nasty falls & shouting
'Yes, yes it was my Airjacket that saved me' but quite frankly I believe some further testing is long overdue. I would like test results over anecdotes please!!

I love that - "the plural of anecdote is not fact". So true.
Plus we are really not objective about our experiences, especially traumatic ones. "If the bullet had been just an inch to the left I'd have been dead..." Yes, but if it had been an inch to the right, it'd have missed you altogether.
You can have a truly horrible fall and die, or another truly horrible fall which looks identical and walk away a bit winded. Having been through a fall does not make us qualified to state what might or might not have otherwise happened in the same circumstances. I'd also hazard the suggestion that while I have immense respect for our paramedics and doctors and am in awe of what they can achieve, they don't have x-ray eyes and so can't tell from watching a fall whether injuries would have been worse in this instance.