lazy spooky horse , calmer ?

Cortez said:
That is always the trade-off with increasing the work rate: fit horses, especially if of a Thoroughbred persuasion, tend to get even fitter and more reactive, which is why being able to free school or turn out is so useful. However, I also think that part of your particular problem is that he's simply ignoring you, so perhaps ask your instructor for some exercises that will engage his brain a bit more (for instance, shoulder-in past anything he thinks is particularly spooky). Lots of transitions are also good. What is NOT good is being too afraid to do more than walk (which a lot of people resort too); a good forward trot or canter will engage the horse a lot more and give him less time to invent things to spook at. Good luck; we're all in the same boat at the moment!
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Excellent advice. Having been in your shoes OP and still am at times with my young Hanoverian (hefty TB influence), I can really relate to your situation, with the horse gets tense spooky/rider tenses, downward spiral!! I fell off my youngster in the summer through a sharp spook/spin and it hurt, so I naturally was more inclined to "eek" moments when back on board. My instructor gave me the same advise as Cortez and it really works when you can let it.

Best bit of advise my instructor gave me was not to confront the spooky areas at the beginning of a session, but to also not let my mare dictate where she went and where she spooked if possible, but to try to preempt the danger zones and make her part of my plan before she made me part of hers!! Therefore initially I couldn't work at one end of the school, very spooky, close trees, ponies behind, sheep, birds, fox, cat, communication antennae thing that comes on randomly with buzzing.......horse was already scared of that end, I got scared too after she ditched me into the fence in the summer, so it was not a good combination.

So I initially would go in and work in the areas we were both happy with, if I even felt a slightly hesitation from my mare, I would dictate a change of direction away from scary place, but at my lead and forwards. Lots of basic baby lateral work, changes of direction etc etc, but all in our "comfort zone", then gradually inching our way up the school, but still not head on confronting the areas. By doing this, we have both completely got over our phobias and my mare is much much much less spooky and concentrates on me mostly now. We happily can go straight in most days and work the whole school with minimum spooking. Even though it is now winter and worst time of year, we are both more confident and she is really working well most of the time in the "bad" areas even in extreme weather.

My initial reactions were to force the issue (hence my meeting with the fence....) or to avoid completely and sit like a tense rabbit in the headlights in walk - result a pretty hyper, scared, mega spooked horse. I was also unwittingly letting her slide of my aids, ie whilst outwardly she didn't look too bad, she was constantly just slightly ahead or behind my aids and seat, so evading me even when behaving. My instructor has worked on this with me and I am now much more aware of just checking she is with me instead of me constantly trying to stay "with" her instead.

I do have her on a calmer, BUT, I do believe that it worked on my issues more than hers and I didn't put her on it for the riding issues, but for calmness for winter stabling, as she had a few issues previous winter and had been out all summer 24/7. I use Feedmark Steady Up and do think it helps with general relaxed mind, BUT only combined with me allowing her to relax and leading her rather than being a passenger.

Good luck, I do know how easily it is for them to erode your confidence, its taken me a good 6 months to really get back to where I wanted to be with my mare and I'm not one normally to get shaken - but I'm too old to get ditched on a spin nowadays and it hurt when I did!! ;)
 
Hi 'angelish'

My Gelding can be guilty of this too. Not to the same degree as your saying yours does, he wouldnt buck or take off, but he has a sharp spook in him, lucky for me i have long legs and normally can sit the spin and side-ways teleport! BUT again like you say he is normaly a lazy horse.

TBH at the minute i dont give him anything, he is young so i will just keep schooling away and try to teach him not to be spooky (which isnt easy) but when he is spooking at a silly jump or person or hat or what ever the chosen 'scary' thing is i try to keep him busy with transitions and lateral work to get his attention back on me and not on the 'scary' thing.

I feel your pain though, keep us posted on if you get any improvement.
 
Doublethyme said:
Excellent advice. Having been in your shoes OP and still am at times with my young Hanoverian (hefty TB influence), I can really relate to your situation, with the horse gets tense spooky/rider tenses, downward spiral!! I fell off my youngster in the summer through a sharp spook/spin and it hurt, so I naturally was more inclined to "eek" moments when back on board. My instructor gave me the same advise as Cortez and it really works when you can let it.

Best bit of advise my instructor gave me was not to confront the spooky areas at the beginning of a session, but to also not let my mare dictate where she went and where she spooked if possible, but to try to preempt the danger zones and make her part of my plan before she made me part of hers!! Therefore initially I couldn't work at one end of the school, very spooky, close trees, ponies behind, sheep, birds, fox, cat, communication antennae thing that comes on randomly with buzzing.......horse was already scared of that end, I got scared too after she ditched me into the fence in the summer, so it was not a good combination.

So I initially would go in and work in the areas we were both happy with, if I even felt a slightly hesitation from my mare, I would dictate a change of direction away from scary place, but at my lead and forwards. Lots of basic baby lateral work, changes of direction etc etc, but all in our "comfort zone", then gradually inching our way up the school, but still not head on confronting the areas. By doing this, we have both completely got over our phobias and my mare is much much much less spooky and concentrates on me mostly now. We happily can go straight in most days and work the whole school with minimum spooking. Even though it is now winter and worst time of year, we are both more confident and she is really working well most of the time in the "bad" areas even in extreme weather.

My initial reactions were to force the issue (hence my meeting with the fence....) or to avoid completely and sit like a tense rabbit in the headlights in walk - result a pretty hyper, scared, mega spooked horse. I was also unwittingly letting her slide of my aids, ie whilst outwardly she didn't look too bad, she was constantly just slightly ahead or behind my aids and seat, so evading me even when behaving. My instructor has worked on this with me and I am now much more aware of just checking she is with me instead of me constantly trying to stay "with" her instead.

I do have her on a calmer, BUT, I do believe that it worked on my issues more than hers and I didn't put her on it for the riding issues, but for calmness for winter stabling, as she had a few issues previous winter and had been out all summer 24/7. I use Feedmark Steady Up and do think it helps with general relaxed mind, BUT only combined with me allowing her to relax and leading her rather than being a passenger.

Good luck, I do know how easily it is for them to erode your confidence, its taken me a good 6 months to really get back to where I wanted to be with my mare and I'm not one normally to get shaken - but I'm too old to get ditched on a spin nowadays and it hurt when I did!! ;)
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Excellent post. You have to take a multipronged approach to these things. Good support helps a lot, too.
 
Doublethyme said:
Excellent advice. Having been in your shoes OP and still am at times with my young Hanoverian (hefty TB influence), I can really relate to your situation, with the horse gets tense spooky/rider tenses, downward spiral!! I fell off my youngster in the summer through a sharp spook/spin and it hurt, so I naturally was more inclined to "eek" moments when back on board. My instructor gave me the same advise as Cortez and it really works when you can let it.

Best bit of advise my instructor gave me was not to confront the spooky areas at the beginning of a session, but to also not let my mare dictate where she went and where she spooked if possible, but to try to preempt the danger zones and make her part of my plan before she made me part of hers!! Therefore initially I couldn't work at one end of the school, very spooky, close trees, ponies behind, sheep, birds, fox, cat, communication antennae thing that comes on randomly with buzzing.......horse was already scared of that end, I got scared too after she ditched me into the fence in the summer, so it was not a good combination.

So I initially would go in and work in the areas we were both happy with, if I even felt a slightly hesitation from my mare, I would dictate a change of direction away from scary place, but at my lead and forwards. Lots of basic baby lateral work, changes of direction etc etc, but all in our "comfort zone", then gradually inching our way up the school, but still not head on confronting the areas. By doing this, we have both completely got over our phobias and my mare is much much much less spooky and concentrates on me mostly now. We happily can go straight in most days and work the whole school with minimum spooking. Even though it is now winter and worst time of year, we are both more confident and she is really working well most of the time in the "bad" areas even in extreme weather.

My initial reactions were to force the issue (hence my meeting with the fence....) or to avoid completely and sit like a tense rabbit in the headlights in walk - result a pretty hyper, scared, mega spooked horse. I was also unwittingly letting her slide of my aids, ie whilst outwardly she didn't look too bad, she was constantly just slightly ahead or behind my aids and seat, so evading me even when behaving. My instructor has worked on this with me and I am now much more aware of just checking she is with me instead of me constantly trying to stay "with" her instead.

I do have her on a calmer, BUT, I do believe that it worked on my issues more than hers and I didn't put her on it for the riding issues, but for calmness for winter stabling, as she had a few issues previous winter and had been out all summer 24/7. I use Feedmark Steady Up and do think it helps with general relaxed mind, BUT only combined with me allowing her to relax and leading her rather than being a passenger.

Good luck, I do know how easily it is for them to erode your confidence, its taken me a good 6 months to really get back to where I wanted to be with my mare and I'm not one normally to get shaken - but I'm too old to get ditched on a spin nowadays and it hurt when I did!! ;)
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I also agree with this. If you aren't going to conclusively win a fight avoid one, also you are just reinforcing the behaviour as often as not.
I also make the horse stand calmly near the scary object/corner, wait till the heart rate goes down and move on quietly. It's far more effective at getting them to accept the 'scary' corner than having a battle.
 
wow lots of replies :) thank you all very much for taking the time to post ,ill try and answer everyone

maccachic thank you for explaining that its very interesting , i didn't think salt would have made any difference

oldie48 thank you , i have tried to give him a rattle when he does it, but it makes him more tense and spooky and if i insist and fight he will bury me and mean it :o although he's not actually managed to get rid of me yet (apart from a couple of times in a test when i haven't seen it coming ) it just doesn't work with him although on a not so bad day a little growl sometimes stops him before he starts but atm he's just getting out of hand

Festive_Felicitations hi :) same as above really a firm growl does work normally but any more than a growl just makes him worse
i got him from a rescue center as a foal unhandled and although didn't have the best of starts (had strangles) he isn't nervous and wasn't badly treated so he doesn't have that excuse ;)

Supanova hi thank you
that is interesting , our hay has been analysis and is low in sugar etc but i will double check with our farmer that it is the same hay and he hasn't changed anything
he comes out in hives if i give him alfa a so he is just on a cheap chaff to put his vits in (pink powder) a pinch of salt and a tiny bit of veg oil , i have cut the oil out just in case it might be that
i have even removed his likit :o

Doublethyme thank you for taking the time to type that , its very helpful
he doesn't normally bother me but i just hate the spinning :( it is horrible isn't
it has just started to bother me this week hence the post , i want to do something about it before it turns into a big problem

Billy the kid hi :)
thank you , i too have long legs that do very much help or i think he'd be out from under me

TarrSteps thanks :)

siennamum thank you , i do agree and arguing with him makes it worse after all he is a lot bigger than me !
thats how i got him past a killer bolder out on a hack the other day , he spooked , spun and naffed off bucking
i spun him round when i eventually pulled him up and i just sat there facing the right direction and he eventually got bored and walked past on his own



ill give a little more info as you have all been so kind to try and help me :)
i will try and not make it too long to bore you all to death :o

i bought him as a foal to make 15"2 ish as i'm only 5"6 and had only ridden ponies before him and he grew to nearly 17hh
i managed to back him ok but he's a natural wimp/follower and was very nappy as a youngster (he's now 10)
i nearly sold him as a 5yr old as he discovered how big he was and developed a rearing habit where he would (hacking alone) spook and turn round then when i picked up the reins to turn him back he'd rear , then when i dropped the contact as he was rearing he'd leap forward off his hind legs , then i would try to turn him and he'd repeat the above

so he has never been the easiest of horses :o
i went through the sell him / shoot him or get on with it and sort him out phase then thankfully i did sort the rearing out and he is now normally well behaved and good to ride even giving youngsters leads etc
so when this started i obviously want to nip it in the bud before he starts to think that he can start the rearing carry on again

ive only been able to afford to have a lesson every couple of months if that , so i don't have a lot of help although i am going to get more training instead of competing this year to try and improve our dressage so hopefully that will help

i enjoyed my lesson today :)
he was still spooky and naughty and spun at one point when someone walked past bringing a horse in (how dare they :o )
but he got much better towards the end , she's given me loads of exercises to do to keep him mind on the job (if anyones interested i will give more details but don't want to bore you all)
so he's going for a nice long hack in company tomorrow to give him a break from being in the school and i will lunge him on sunday instead of a day off (i work on sundays) then back in school on monday to see if we can cope on our own :)
i may still try a calmer as i don't think it will do any harm but i am going to try and ride him through it this week with our new plan of action :)
 
Hi angelish,

My German WB is very much like yours - a b****r in the school, although he is now a gentleman to hack out. He can get very stressy in the stable and will box walk! My trainer always tells me to ride him forward (which I do with the help of a balance strap) and this has helped immensely. But I would also point out that ulcers many be some of the cause for your horses behaviour too. I know that "ulcers" seem to be the cause of many problems in behaviours in the horse world at present, but it may be worth checking his diet again. Does your boy get any type of cereals in his diet. Does he show signs of tummy upsets, runny poohs, girthy etc.. I am not trying to preach but it may be something to look into.
My boy, although I have never had him scoped, I suspect had ulcers, but over the last year has changed immensely because I changed his diet and he now has a bespoke suppliment which is great.
Hope it all works out for u and keeps us all updated.
 
Hi having read your last lengthy post I realise mine is nothing like yours, i wouldn't cope at all with your horse's behaviour and yes, I'd be trying a calmer as well!! good luck I hope you find something that settles him.
 
TarrSteps said:
I'd be curious to know the exercises, if you don't mind. If that sort of thing bored us we wouldn't be here! :D
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:D ill post the exercises below

oldie48 said:
Hi having read your last lengthy post I realise mine is nothing like yours, i wouldn't cope at all with your horse's behaviour and yes, I'd be trying a calmer as well!! good luck I hope you find something that settles him.
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he is lovely most of the time and non of it is nasty , he doesn't mean it really he is just a stress head sometimes and the combination of less time in the field/time of year etc is making his nerves (and mine) worse , he is lovely to ride and a really honest horse most of the time although always a bit "looky" alone , he doesn't normally spin etc
i even trust him to ride him bareback at times but obviously not at the moment ;)

GeorgeyGal said:
Dodson and horrel do a forage analysis, you could test for magnesium deficiency, which I believe is v common in the UK.
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thanks , its funny you should say that my friend (same yard) has just started using magnesium and she thinks it is making a difference to her horse so it is something i will maybe try if more exercise doesn't make a difference

Joandripple hi that is something that has crossed my mind but he isn't really girthy and isn't really getting any hard feed , this sort of behavior isn't really so unusual for him either , every now and then (mainly winter) if he's feeling fresh this is what he throws at me



He's been lovely today out hacking in company(he's always good in co ), we were out about two hours including some lovely big hills so that might have taken the edge of his energy
ill either lunge him tomorrow or hack again taking advantage of having company and then take him back in the school on monday to see if he's any better then


Lesson/exercises
before i started i removed the flash from his bridle as he sometimes starts an argument with the flash noseband before he even gets out the stable , i am going to be openly honest here so please don't all jump on me at once :o
i have tried tightening the nose band this week wrongly thinking i would have more control , i also tried schooling him in his pelham (i use it for xc fast hacks etc )
but have come to think that the spooking etc is due to tension and doing that ^ has made him more tense and the problem worse , iv'e admitted to that so any less experienced readers can learn from my mistakes hopefully :o

we started off walking a square with a turn about the forhand on every corner , we did this away from the spooky side so as not to cause an argument straight away , then moved up to trotting a "square" circle and half halting, pushing his quarters over on every corner

this really helped get him stepping under and softer in my hand as he was being a bit rude in the contact without the flash

then still in trot we did some outside flexion as i tend to loose his outside shoulder on the left rein , so outside flexion and just let worked on straightening him up a little , without the flash he was really running through the shoulder but this ^ did help

(he hadn't spooked at all by this point)

this ones a little difficult to explain so bare with me
on a 20 m circle we took outside flexion , leg yeild into the circle then did a 10m half circle out towards the fence , sometimes with a canter transition into/towards the fence
he was really lifting into canter and felt fab :)
we then changed the rein in trot and he nearly had me because someone walked past with a horse he dropped the contact and spun round but didn't buck or go very far so although he was quick it was a slight improvement

after a little rest we then did some shoulder in along the long side , practised getting the right angle by doing a 10 m circle then shoulder in out of the circle
then started doing some medium trot steps out of the shoulder in at E so shoulder in along the long side, get to E/B and push for medium on a half circle to B/E
got two or 3 really good steps :D

then after another rest worked on the canter transition's on a circle , spiral in then leg yeild out and canter
then some canter - halt - canter transitions to finish as iv'e been working on square halts so like to get a nice halt then jump off/feed him sweets :o

so got lots to keep us busy !
after all the faffing about on his part all week i wasn't looking forward to my lesson as i thought he'd just mess about and waste my hard earned cash but i had a brilliant lesson :D
its so annoying because he felt brilliant , he actually goes better when he is a little full of himself but the spooking is horrid

i can't wait to take him in the school on monday to see if i can cope without someone there shouting at me and i have raided the piggy bank and booked another lesson for next week

thanks again for all your input , not being able to afford many lessons i really do appreciate all your suggestions :)
 
Mine is the same. Almost worst because he is actually a really kind horse but he WILL find ways to amuse himself if I am not in top of him.

So when I warm up, he doesn't get to stroll around and stretch (my preferred way of warming up), he has to take the contact forward and is straight into simple loops, change of rein, translations till he is focused on me. Even poor lateral work while he is warming up help.

So today, I got on him and we expected fireworks. This would have been fair as, thanks to this b**dy weather I have ridden him once since Sunday and not the 4 times he is used to. I worked him as described and he was really good. My concession is to take up the rein more when he is warmed up, and he does get short stretch breaks when I finish each section of work but 10/10 my little toad was lovely (not the yard favourite atm though as gets very naughty to turn out if not worked enough!)
 
this weather has a lot to answer for !
although it could be worse it could snow :o

i'm working on a softly ,softly approach atm (still insisting he does as he's told) because i really do think its due to nerves/tension , if i can get him to relax he doesn't do it as much
mine hasn't had a day off for about 10 days now :o and he isn't getting one either or at least until his attitude improves
 
I agree with Cortez and others - less feed, harder work. Horse needs to go back in his stable tired and happy and come out keen. It's not about how long you ride for, it's the quality of work. My sisters Medium level dressage horse has to work incredibly hard - if she doesn't, she finds ways of entertaining herself by bucking/spinning etc. My jumping mare (Foxhunter level) is also extremely lazy and spooky and I just have to ride her strong. Try to get it "nice" at home, but at shows you just have to ride as is required - and then go back home and put back in the flatwork/jump you lost at the show.
 
One of my boys is similar to yours, not nasty in any way but a but stressy and lacks confidence with anything knew. I use magic syringes when I'm going to be introducing anything drastically new just to take the edge off him to allow me to school him and get him used to things without him getting to the point of no return! I've found he concentrates really well with this and after a few times we don't need to use the magic anymore. I've found keeping his mind busy on different things helps. Also if he starts spooking I tend to stop, say no firmly back him up a few steps circle and carry on as I was. If I tried to force him past whatever he was spooking at he just panicked and turned into a jittering mess! Every horse is different it's just trial and error, hope you find what works for your boy!
 
I think in a lot of ways you've answered your own question OP. I had a similar time with my boy, I had recently returned to riding and bought myself a horse after a looooong break (many years) who started off great but gradually became lazy yet sharp and spooky to the point where I almost sold him.
I completely lost my confidence but what I noticed was that when I forced myself to ride him, if I fell off he would go much better afterwards. He's a very sensitive soul and the softie in me would think he was going better because he felt somehow bad or guilty he had thrown me but actually it was because I was getting back on with the attitude of being determined not to fall off again!
I started using calmers to make him less spooky as we were going round in circles (not literally) it was catch-22 I knew I needed to ride him with more confidence but whilst he was being silly and scaring me every time my confidence was actually decreasing.
It worked! As he was less spooky I got more confident and I now have no need to use calmers (I hope, never say never), so they really helped us and I would recommend others to use them to get out if a similar situation.
What I have realised is there are two "types" of calmers, magnesium based and herb based. Without having your feed and grazing analysed you won't know if your horse is deficient or low in magnesium, so if you try one type of calmer and it doesn't have any effect, try the other type. I found magnesium based calmers had no effect on my horse at all, but herbal based calmers did the trick.
Good luck!
 
thanks everyone :)
he's been as good as gold the last few days but we have only hacked in company and he is almost always good in company , the odd time he isn't he just throws himself about a bit and that doesn't bother me at all :)

it will be crunch time tomorrow to see if he is better behaved on his own schooling , i feel quietly confident with my exercises from my great lesson on friday and the fact he's been good all weekend , so fingers crossed he behaves and the extra exercise is starting to settle him down a bit :)
 
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