Leadership and dominance shouldn’t be used to train horses

[SEL]

As an instructor, I can't abide those who shout the words, "kick, kick!" at children on ponies. What a way to imprint into a child's mind that it's perfectly ok to kick ponies when you want them to do something.

Absolutely. I did a bit of teaching a couple of years ago at the yard I now keep my horses on. We used to get tiddlers from another riding school come who would literally take their legs away from the sides and thump back on again - as their first aid. So 'walk you pony round' would lead to yank and thump. More than one of our horses instantly bucked the kids off in pure surprise at being walloped before they'd been asked politely.

I need to ponder on the PC kick versus schooling whip flick though. I use both on my mare who is behind the leg - she does have physical issues, which meant her schooling over the past 2 years hasn't gone according to plan but I think I backed off too much knowing about those issues and now she's a bit 'blah' because she's been allowed to get away with it. Friday pondering with a bacon sandwich needed.

 

[Cortez]

As an instructor, I can't abide those who shout the words, "kick, kick!" at children on ponies. What a way to imprint into a child's mind that it's perfectly ok to kick ponies when you want them to do something.

Oh thank you! I can't bear it either. It's no wonder that the current awful riding I see comes from that sort of instruction; doesn't anybody start beginners on lunge horses and schoolmasters any more?

 

[ycbm]

Serious answer: I've honestly never had to go as far as actually belting a horse, never marked a horse either. I've no problem with a very sharp flick, repeated never more than three times if necessary. I used to specialise in problem horses, so have come up against some extremely difficult characters over the years. If horses are absolutely refusing to go forwards I have found that it's either a physical problem (but that would have manifested itself in the work anyway - owners often don't have the experience to notice), or the rider is hanging on to the reins and blocking the horse, mostly without being conscious of it, and has ineffective seat/legs. With the owner on board I have no problem helping a bit from the ground with either a long piaffe whip or lunge whip, but again not belting the hell out of the horse; that's not what whips are for. Oh, and I also take the little "poppers" off all my whips so that they don't sting the horses, the idea is to pinpoint the aid, not hurt them.

I can see it's a lot easier if you have someone available on the ground. The last one I seriously belted was about to fall off the arena bank (I have no fence, deliberately), after running backwards fifteen metres in protest at being asked to do something fairly simple, I can't quite remember what. It was an ingrained trick of his, I found out in due course.

I did manage to avoid walloping my planting horse three years ago by having OH follow me down the road with a lunge whip as a last resort! He never hit him with it. Of course a companion to hack with would have been a better option, but I don't have that luxury.

The older I get the less right I think we have to hit or kick horses. I'm no saint, though

 

[nikkimariet]

Somebody has to be the boss. When it involves the horse, that'd be me, then.

Same.

 

[Taliesan]

Regandal - I think sometimes a pony club kick is better than allowing them to be fearful of stuff really - if you kick them on or even use a crop they do feel safer in your hands than someone who allows them to be fearful - then there is no leader and they have to take matters into their own hands which isn't wiser for them or you. There are times when horses are fearful - be that over a waving dock leaf or different coloured tarmac - its up to you to take charge and say its OK to walk on. Whether that be via a pony club kick or a smack on the backside - they need to learn that you are the leader. Deferring to them is never helpful - for you or them - just an accident waiting to happen. They are prey animals and would therefore prefer to never engage with what they don't feel is safe. Only by making them engage and get through it without harm helps them learn. I can't imagine how you would ever make a horse pass anything it isn't 100% happy with get over it without either kicking them or using a crop - if you do have another way, let me know, but not going forward is seldom an option IMO

My horse is fearful. He is convinced that most things out there will kill him and always jumps to the worst conclusion. He is also an incredibly intelligent and sensitive horse, so smacking him or using any kind of force causes him to have an emotional meltdown. This then adds to his fear of the object as it turns into "oh, a lamp post, this means I get smacked and it might eat me" - it is a slippery slope to disaster.

I don't think that hitting a horse causes it to feel safer. How does that make sense? In my eyes by hitting the horse you are essentially telling it to grow a pair and get over itself. If I was around someone who hit me when they are scared I can assure you I would not feel safe, or happy, around them.

I allow my horse to be fearful and I also defer to him, within reason. I encourage him to use his brain to work out that the lamp post or grit box is not going to eat him and that is is actually perfectly safe. If he is worried or anxious we stop and I allow him to look at the object and process it. When he moves forwards, he gets a click and a treat (I am clicker training him in order to work on his fear and anxiety, amongst other things.) Sometimes when we are walking along he will stop because something has worried him, what he wants is for me to walk between him and the scary thing. As soon as I change my position he happily continues on, now confident that, if we are going to die, I'll die first as I'm next to the object and he will be able to get away safely!

When I first got him he would nap and stop about 500 yards out of the gate. You could see the meltdown going on in his head as he just couldn't cope with all the fearful stimuli. Now we can happily go out on long walks (I do have to walk him out and ride him back, if I am on him his fear levels about inanimate objects increase massively) but he knows the routine and he is happy with this arrangement. If I ever was on him and we came across something terrifying I would always get off and walk him past it. Then he learns that there is nothing to be afraid of, he gets treats for being brave / using his brain and then I can hop back on afterwards.

For example, yesterday we were out on a walk together and we came across a person with a very loud and scary industrial leaf blower. My horse found this terrifying and to try and force him past it would have achieved nothing. What he actually wanted to do was cross the road and walk along behind the large lorry that hid the leaf blower from view. This was fine by me as he clearly felt safe hidden behind the lorry and was now happy to go forwards. As luck would have it the guy stopped using the leaf blower as we reached the end of the lorry so my horse was more than happy to continue on. By deferring to him and allowing him to choose which way to go, we continued with our walk and there was no conflict as a result - both of us were happy.

As a result of approaching his fear with encouragement instead of making myself scarier than the scary thing I now have a horse who is gaining in confidence by the day and is no longer afraid to give stuff a go. He trusts that I will listen to him and acknowledge how he is feeling instead of treating him like a silly horse because I know that the object isn't going to hurt us. Fear to a horse is genuine - they cannot make it up or fake it. My boy is convinced that things like different coloured tarmac, lamp posts and grit boxes to name just a few are legitimate threats that may well end his life. I know they aren't, but my showing him that it is safe and asking him to investigate has made such a huge difference to him.

If I had gone down the traditional route with "give him a smack and teach him to get over himself" I think I would've ended up sitting on a time bomb where, one day, something would tip him over the edge and one (or both) of us could get seriously hurt.

In relation to the rest of the thread, I fully support the position statement and I hope that, in time, people are encouraged to try out other methods of training instead of bulling their horses into submission as they perceive that have to be a leader to their horse. There are many kinds of leaders, and ones that use force to get what they want aren't really ranked among the kindest in my view.

 

[only_me]

In relation to the rest of the thread, I fully support the position statement and I hope that, in time, people are encouraged to try out other methods of training instead of bulling their horses into submission as they "have to be the leader."

No one said that they bully their horse into submission. They said they are leader, and as others have said, there are different ways to be a leader. Usually a leader controls a situation, thinks of options to overcome it and then decides on the best method to do it. The horse shouldn't be in control.

Personally to me your horse sounds in control of you, you get off to lead him past Scary things, but I wouldn't count different colored tarmac as scary. He may be frightened and your method works with him, but that doesn't mean other methods wouldn't work. In fact there may be a better option, such as hacking with something more bombproof, so horse learns it needs to walk on and there isn't anything scary. But if it works for you, great! I won't be doing clicker training as I don't need to. But if I had a tricky horse, I would consider it.

Letting your horse see the scary thing or touch it is just normal desensitizing work. But I wouldn't get off unless we had been still for 5mins plus!

 

[Taliesan]

No one said that they bully their horse into submission. They said they are leader, and as others have said, there are different ways to be a leader. Usually a leader controls a situation, thinks of options to overcome it and then decides on the best method to do it. The horse shouldn't be in control.

Personally to me your horse sounds in control of you, you get off to lead him past Scary things, but I wouldn't count different colored tarmac as scary. He may be frightened and your method works with him, but that doesn't mean other methods wouldn't work. In fact there may be a better option, such as hacking with something more bombproof, so horse learns it needs to walk on and there isn't anything scary. But if it works for you, great! I won't be doing clicker training as I don't need to. But if I had a tricky horse, I would consider it.

Letting your horse see the scary thing or touch it is just normal desensitizing work. But I wouldn't get off unless we had been still for 5mins plus!

That was more of a reference to certain thoughts of training - Parelli and MR to name a couple. I have since edited the post as I am writing it whilst at work so had to go back and change a few things as didn't proof read it the first time round!

You wouldn't count different coloured tarmac as scary, but he does. He isn't worried by any form of vehicle at all, but seemingly daft things like lamp posts, different coloured drives, grit boxes, etc, are genuinely terrifying for him. His starts to snort, his heart rate goes up and the flight response starts. By using food (as to him food is the best thing ever) to encourage him to think about these things he is starting to come round and, instead of seeing these things as life ending objects, they are then a marker for "oh, a lamp post, I get a treat for walking past this". It is the best way I have found, for him, to change his thinking. If I had used a kick or a crop to get him past it I probably would've ended up on the floor as he tends to go backwards very fast and you can almost see his brain going "nonononono, I can't cope, I am going to die" - it is quite an extreme reaction. (Although probably not the most extreme reaction in the world, he does panic / go over the threshold very easily.)

I am still in control of what we do. But I see no harm in allowing him to evaluate the situation and give him the confidence to overcome things. If this means that we have to walk a good distance away from the killer object, fine. After going past it a couple of times, or asking him to target it with his nose, we will then be able to walk past it with no further issues. I would much rather solve his worries with as little conflict and confrontation as possible, as this too is something that makes him panic and worry.

I cannot take him out with another horse to use as a lead - that would be my ideal situation but, unfortunately, he shares his field with another elderly horse that isn't in any form of work.

If I didn't get off he would, again, start to worry and get more anxious. By getting off fairly quickly and walking past the object it diffuses the situation and it means that we aren't stood still for ages!

In the past I am sure he was made to get on with it and go past things, but that isn't the way I want to train him as it makes me feel uncomfortable. It just doesn't sit right with me - can't explain why! The way I do it may not be the way for every horse or person, but it certainly has worked excellently with my boy and it shows that there is another way to get a horse to go past something and overcome its fears instead of a crop or a kick.

 

[SpringArising]

I've always found PC kicks really ineffective and horses to actually more forward much more responsively with a squeeze in the right place (right behind the elbow). They're not nice to look at and I don't like when you can physically hear the horse grunt. I have no idea why they're taught since they only seem acceptable until the age of about 8!

I use a crop when I ride to back up my leg. I can't be arsed faffing around trying to get something lazy to move and physically trying to push it forward. I'd rather not ride at all than have to ride an unresponsive, lazy horse. I ask once and if the horse doesn't respond it gets one short tap behind the girth and a growl to get on with the reins completely slack.

 

[SpringArising]

That was more of a reference to certain thoughts of training - Parelli and MR to name a couple. I have since edited the post as I am writing it whilst at work so had to go back and change a few things as didn't proof read it the first time round!

You wouldn't count different coloured tarmac as scary, but he does. He isn't worried by any form of vehicle at all, but seemingly daft things like lamp posts, different coloured drives, grit boxes, etc, are genuinely terrifying for him. His starts to snort, his heart rate goes up and the flight response starts. By using food (as to him food is the best thing ever) to encourage him to think about these things he is starting to come round and, instead of seeing these things as life ending objects, they are then a marker for "oh, a lamp post, I get a treat for walking past this". It is the best way I have found, for him, to change his thinking. If I had used a kick or a crop to get him past it I probably would've ended up on the floor as he tends to go backwards very fast and you can almost see his brain going "nonononono, I can't cope, I am going to die" - it is quite an extreme reaction. (Although probably not the most extreme reaction in the world, he does panic / go over the threshold very easily.)

I am still in control of what we do. But I see no harm in allowing him to evaluate the situation and give him the confidence to overcome things. If this means that we have to walk a good distance away from the killer object, fine. After going past it a couple of times, or asking him to target it with his nose, we will then be able to walk past it with no further issues. I would much rather solve his worries with as little conflict and confrontation as possible, as this too is something that makes him panic and worry.

I cannot take him out with another horse to use as a lead - that would be my ideal situation but, unfortunately, he shares his field with another elderly horse that isn't in any form of work.

If I didn't get off he would, again, start to worry and get more anxious. By getting off fairly quickly and walking past the object it diffuses the situation and it means that we aren't stood still for ages!

In the past I am sure he was made to get on with it and go past things, but that isn't the way I want to train him as it makes me feel uncomfortable. It just doesn't sit right with me - can't explain why! The way I do it may not be the way for every horse or person, but it certainly has worked excellently with my boy and it shows that there is another way to get a horse to go past something and overcome its fears instead of a crop or a kick.

I understand that this works for you, but I'm curious: what would you do if you were riding in a place where it wasn't safe to get off, or you were riding something big enough that meant you wouldn't be able to get back on again?

 

[Taliesan]

I understand that this works for you, but I'm curious: what would you do if you were riding in a place where it wasn't safe to get off, or you were riding something big enough that meant you wouldn't be able to get back on again?

That is an excellent question - I honestly haven't thought about it. My first response would be to make sure I never get into that situation to begin with regarding it being unsafe to get off. Obviously not all situations are predictable or controllable though. If I was faced with that my main aim would be to keep my horse as calm as possible and go from there. As long as he remains calm his brain is in logical mode instead of "everything is going to kill me now" mode - the latter being quite difficult to work with. I hope that such a situation never arises but part of me is interested to see what I would do in reality - often it can be very different to hypothetically on a forum!

If I was riding something that I wouldn't be able to get back on again then I would suck it up and walk. I can't get on my current horse from the ground as I am usually a somewhat ungraceful lump in the air and have little gymnastic ability. I am fairly tall though so as long as I can find an object that is about a foot high I can usually hop on trouble-free.

I understand that walking isn't everyone's cup of tea though. But I do tend to engineer my walks / rides around places that I know I can get on / off easily, so that isn't really an issue for me. My horse will usually line up next to anything, which also makes it an awful lot easier.

 

[Regandal]

Taliesan, you could think about training a 'head down' response to a verbal trigger. This lowers adrenaline and fear in unforeseen situations.
My smaller boy is terrified of whips. He is reasonably brave, but if put under too much pressure he will go up. The change in his attitude and confidence since we started clicker training is massive.
I just wondered if it was some kind of cognitive dissonance - people have always kicked horses, so it must be ok. You wouldn't kick a fearful dog. Well you might, but it might not end well.

 

[Taliesan]

Taliesan, you could think about training a 'head down' response to a verbal trigger. This lowers adrenaline and fear in unforeseen situations.
My smaller boy is terrified of whips. He is reasonably brave, but if put under too much pressure he will go up. The change in his attitude and confidence since we started clicker training is massive.
I just wondered if it was some kind of cognitive dissonance - people have always kicked horses, so it must be ok. You wouldn't kick a fearful dog. Well you might, but it might not end well.

That is a very good idea. I have been toying with the idea of training a head down cue for a while, especially as that would be useful in ridden work when he tenses up and gets anxious and his head goes into the air. Something to bring his energy levels down would certainly be useful.

I couldn't agree more on the change in attitude. Even though I mix (very mild) R- and (lots of) R+ (which I understand is not everybody's cup of tea, but it is what works for me and my horse at this time) he has become so much more willing to work and engage his brain towards us working together, instead of using it to figure out how he can do the task with the least amount of effort possible.

I think cognitive dissonance comes into it a lot. It is a difficult thing to overcome and can make what was once a simple thing very challenging.

 

[Cowgirls]

I disagree.

Whenever my horse disrespects my leg and has an attitute problem,im sure to give her 60 lashes with the bullwhip

She is punished on average 2-4 times daily when she had the attitute problem

This method of whipping actually was effective for a while before my horse went back to having an attitute problem

I believe that whipping them into submitting works well.

I give her 50 lashes weekly when she behaves to keep up the good behavior

 

[Cowgirls]

My horse had an attitute problem,and the bullwhip i used on her proved effective