Leading a bolshy one. I really need help now.

[TheresaW]

Ollie is rising 6, 15hh native type. He is very very loving, I feel we have a really good bond, but he is just a nightmare to lead and I am getting to the end of my tether with him.

He has gotten loose on the road before, his summer field is across a road from the yard. He has run onto the road before coming in from the winter field, and tonight he has trashed the YO's garden. I have been doing loads of ground work with him, and have been using a rope halter, but when he wants to go, he just goes from 0-60 in a blink of the eye.

Before the rope halter, I tried him in my big lads chiffney. I can hold him in it, but he has no respect for it whatsoever (unlike the big lad), and I am too worried about damaging his mouth to use it long term.

I keep hearing people on here talk about training, so please tell me how. Have been working with the groom at the yard with him, and she is very experienced with all shapes and sizes, from babies to oap's, and he has even gotten away from her. As she said tonight, it's not as if anything sets him off, and you never get any warning.

The only thing I haven't tried is having a few treats in my pocket, but he can be quite mouthy, and tries to mug people anyway, so don't want to make that worse. I wouldn't mind so much if it was because he was legging it to get to bed, at least I wouldn't have to worry about cars etc, which is what Mac does, but he runs away from the stables.

Please, someone help me.

 

[katymay]

Ollie is rising 6, 15hh native type. He is very very loving, I feel we have a really good bond, but he is just a nightmare to lead and I am getting to the end of my tether with him.

He has gotten loose on the road before, his summer field is across a road from the yard. He has run onto the road before coming in from the winter field, and tonight he has trashed the YO's garden. I have been doing loads of ground work with him, and have been using a rope halter, but when he wants to go, he just goes from 0-60 in a blink of the eye.

Before the rope halter, I tried him in my big lads chiffney. I can hold him in it, but he has no respect for it whatsoever (unlike the big lad), and I am too worried about damaging his mouth to use it long term.

I keep hearing people on here talk about training, so please tell me how. Have been working with the groom at the yard with him, and she is very experienced with all shapes and sizes, from babies to oap's, and he has even gotten away from her. As she said tonight, it's not as if anything sets him off, and you never get any warning.

The only thing I haven't tried is having a few treats in my pocket, but he can be quite mouthy, and tries to mug people anyway, so don't want to make that worse. I wouldn't mind so much if it was because he was legging it to get to bed, at least I wouldn't have to worry about cars etc, which is what Mac does, but he runs away from the stables.

Please, someone help me.

I have this problem with my youngster, even in a dually when he wants to go there is no stopping him, nothing in particular sets him off but he sets his neck and I cannot get control back, it has really put the backing process on the back burner as I don't feel I can safely lead him around the roads on my own, sometimes he will lead like a dream! I have actually turned him away for the winter to mature so am hoping that with lots of groundwork when the weather gets a bit nicer will teach him some respect when he is being led, I always lead him with a lungeline now, so even if he does tank off at least I can safely hold the end of the line whilst trying to regain some control! will watch this post with interest, sorry I cannot be of help but wanted you to know you are not alone, I have never had anything that wont lead nicely before!

 

[MyBoyChe]

Have you tried leading him in a bridle. I have a highland who sometimes forgets his manners. I have used a choke chain through his headcollar which I can either use or leave unclipped and also use his bridle if I feel he is getting a bit bolshy. Both work really well as with him it is just a question of forgetting his manners so might not be enough of a fix for your lad but maybe worth a try, if you havent already.

 

[Illusion100]

Not fun! The fact he can get loose onto roads etc makes it 100 times worse, as likely this is always at back of your mind making it harder for you to fully concentrate!

Think the problem is the bolting is now a learned behaviour and he knows he can hoon off when the notion takes him. Honestly think that the more people he gets away from the more unruly he will get.

Would advice getting professional help for everyones safety. Would advise someone who will do the initial work, and when he is returned they work with him on your yard, then pop back for follow up sessions with you until you feel confident handling him.

Would just feel that even if you tried a bridle/chain and he managed to get away from you again, he will become even more naughty!

Best of luck.

 

[spike123]

my horse used to be the ultimate in bolshy and like the abover poster he would set his neck and go. He also used to kick out at you as he went. I did retrain him and did use treats to do so and would do so happily again. The key is using the treats at the right time and only to reward when they are 100% listening to you and doing as you ask. Lead in a bridle to start off with, in fact as you need to cross a road don't ever lead in just a headcollar as it isn't safe. The lunge line is a good idea as you have more chance to grab the horse should he attempt to run off. You can do some groundwork in the safety of the yard so start off with some backing up and turning with you in a circle and stopping when you ask. Get it right and reward with treat or scratch in favourite spot and you will be surprised how quickly they start to want to listen and please you.

 

[cheeryplatypus]

Can you practice leading in a 'safe' area like a field and have him on a longer line/lunge rein. It would give you more purchase when he starts to go than a short rope...it's easier to turn them in it. If he then learns that he can't get away and just gets out to work on a circle it may put him off. There are probably tiny warnings that he is going to do it, might even just be a 'look' or ear position. Can you lead him a few paces and then ask for a turn on the forehand to disengage the quarters? The setting the neck can be related to lack of control of the quarters, if you ask him to take a step under with the leg nearest you and turn to you it may help.

Agree that you need a professional to assess things before there is an accident.

 

[TheresaW]

Thankyou for all the ideas. I haven't tried leading him in his bridle, but we did go to a show in the summer, and I took him into 2 in-hand classes. He buggered off in both classes, in his bridle. I truly believe he does it because he can.

Thankfully, at the moment, the field he is in, is on the yard side of the road. There is a gate at the top of the track, which I always make sure is closed when I get him, and tonight, he walked up fine, did halts, stepped back when I asked him. We got through the gate, and as we turned the corner to go to the stables, he just went. My son was leading my mare with us, have tried bringing him in front, behind, and on his own. Makes no difference.

I can try practicing in his field, and we have a good school that I am going to try working with him in as well.

 

[Clodagh]

Ol used to be mine and he has dragged me along face first through the mud before. He is a little **** when the mood takes him.
I would always carry a stick or hoofpick and keep it stuck where his shoulder joins his neck as he sets his neck away to ****** off. If he can't set his neck he loses half his strength. I used a stallion chain over his nose, too, but I was better off than Theresa as he lived out with me so coming in was not necessarily at feeding times, not an option for her as she is on a yard.

 

[Clodagh]

Ol used to be mine and he has dragged me along face first through the mud before. He is a little **** when the mood takes him.
I would always carry a stick or hoofpick and keep it stuck where his shoulder joins his neck as he sets his neck away to ****** off. If he can't set his neck he loses half his strength. I used a stallion chain over his nose, too, but I was better off than Theresa as he lived out with me so coming in was not necessarily at feeding times, not an option for her as she is on a yard.

Oooh...I've been edited!

 

[Carlosmum]

I had a session with an IH trained RA when my bolshy 5 YO youngster had got away from me & double barrelled me on the way passed. I now have the technique to use of using the dually halter to block him & pull him round if he starts to go ( can't really explain it), he is now 7 and more civilised though he does have his moments & will set his neck if he is of a mind too.
I would recommend a Kelly Marks trained person have a look on the Intelligent Horsemanship website for on in your area.

 

[Abby-Lou]

Please get help from a professional it won't take long to get you sorted - look on the intelligent horsemanship website for nearest person - They are great a giving you the tools to be able to cope yourself and promise you won't look back

 

[AengusOg]

The old stallion walkers always had a roller and an offside side-rein on their horses, and for good reason. It is an excellent method of control to prevent a horse from ripping the rope through the handler's hands and running off.

A horse which does this falls out and away from the handler through his offside shoulder. Any attempt to turn his head toward the handler just helps the horse as he is able to 'set' his neck as has been described.

The offside side-rein must be set so that the horse's head is slightly inclined away from the handler, as this prevents him from turning toward the handler and falling out through his shoulder.

A horse which has been properly taught to yield to halter pressure and to lead is the best option, though, and will not need roller or side-reins.

 

[TheresaW]

Have just emailed someone on the IH website. The other thing is, he doesn't do it all the time. We have had a good few weeks of him being fine in the rope halter. Getting him in in the huge winds we've had, he did get really spooked one night. Leapt about 3000000ft in the air, came down on my foot (which still hurts), but didn't once try to take off.

 

[TigerTail]

This is a leadership and respect/trust issue and needs solving with training not using stronger and stronger bits/chifneys etc til u have no mouth left to ride!

Suggest you get an IHRA out asap. One or two sessions is normally enough to sort this type of issue, then its down to you and consistency in your handling.

 

[TheresaW]

This is a leadership and respect/trust issue and needs solving with training not using stronger and stronger bits/chifneys etc til u have no mouth left to ride!

Suggest you get an IHRA out asap. One or two sessions is normally enough to sort this type of issue, then its down to you and consistency in your handling.

As I said, I tried the chiffney, and he had no respect for it at all, so I stopped as I didn't want to ruin his mouth. I know he does it because he "can" and have tonight emailed someone to help me before he, or someone else, gets hurt.

 

[Clodagh]

In support of Theresa, you can get him in 40 times and he will be a little angel, on the 41st time, with no warning whatsoever...and really not, there isn't the slightest ear twitch or reaction, he sets his neck and is off like a bullet. I hope an IH person can fix him, but you realise he will NEVER do it while they are there!
It will be like taking your car to the garage with a rattle it immediately stops!

 

[teabiscuit]

I had one that just left when he felt like it, the little darling.
I used a combination of clicker training -you can use it to train them to be polite when taking treats, too-so he enjoyed using his brain for that.
I also long reined him in an enclosed area, he tried to get away many times before he learned that he couldn't just go when he felt like it.
I think this was the most use, it provided a way of stopping him without any drama, yet he had to do what he was told.

 

[Echo Bravo]

Head collar with a nose chain, it does work and after awhile you can go back to the ordinary headcollar, but just now and then you have to reuse it as they like my mare forgets and starts getting above herself again, used a couple of times and she's as good as gold for awhile, must admit when she sees it she knows what it's for, so maybe that is why I only have to use it a couple of times to lead her from field to field.

 

[TheresaW]

C, I'm glad you had him before me, you totally understand what he is like. The only good thing is, when Abby was teaching me to use the rope halter, he did do it with her as well. We had a long chat tonight after D's garden got trashed, and she has said, what makes him so difficult, is, he goes with absolutely no warning sign whatsoever. Mac always gives me a sign. I have gone to fetch him in before with head collar in hand, seen his eyes, gone back and got chiffney. Have also gone to get one of the others in first, Mac has been at the gate (nobody comes in first when Mac wants in), and know it's perfectly ok to bring Mac with just a lead rope around his neck.

Teabiscuit, we had a girl at the yard who swore by clicker training. I don't really understand it, and she was going to show me, but she has moved away now, so missed that opportunity.

 

[stencilface]

Head collar with a chain, or rope over the nose, and never let him get his shoulder in front. Even if he only does it every so often you have to treat it like he will do it every time. My sisters horse is great at setting his neck and shoulder and beggaring off, I find a pointy elbow wedged hard in front of his shoulder does wonders coupled with a sharp pull. It's taken a while though, and I've been grass skiing many times in the 18 years we've had him, he's never learnt sadly!

 

[Illusion100]

As I said, I tried the chiffney, and he had no respect for it at all, so I stopped as I didn't want to ruin his mouth. I know he does it because he "can" and have tonight emailed someone to help me before he, or someone else, gets hurt.

If it makes you feel any better my 3 yr old is led with bit and chain as a safety thing at mo. I have no concerns about his mouth being hardened as technique used doesn't tug at mouth. Only time any real pressure is put on mouth is when he rears (he used to like rearing straight into a bolt) but he only rears for a couple of seconds usually before he comes back down so time pressure applied is very short.

Dually halter/using lungeline etc didn't help. When he bolted he bolted and that was that. After he got away 3 times I sent him to a Trainer, as same as you he could get onto road and cause accidents to others and himself.

His problem was fear based and tried NH route first but this made him worse. Was very fussy about who I sent him to as didn't want others to try, then fail and send me back a horse even worse! Didn't want him bitted and battered about either and have his mouth ruined.

Luckily Trainer knows their stuff and the difference of even 2 weeks training was astounding.

Wish you the very best as know exactly how you feel. You just want to do the right thing for your horse and I know how protective you can feel over what you think is best.

 

[Clodagh]

I'ver still got his chain if you want to use it. He ALWAYS wore it with me, and I always had my elbow in front of his shoulder. He is soo clever - give me a thick pone any day.

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

If he takes off with a long rope attached it is dangerous to him, tipping over and breaking a leg at worst for example.
My boy used to take off on occasion, so what I did was have a short soft thick rope over his nose, long enough so I could hold it, but short enough so if he took off he would not trip. I would lead him in and out to his field in a long thick lunge rope, but made sure he got a tug if he tried anything, I also looped lunge rein round a gatepost if he took off in to the field, these events mostly took place around the field gate when he was going out.
If taking out to his field in a bridle you need a halter underneath, to let you remove the bridle before he takes off with the bit in his mouth, bridle half off, which is a very scary thing for a horse.
This was after he had a year of coming in from field in a bridle, he was rather prone to jump on top of me, and it took along time to cure this habit which occurred when he was spooked.
His behaviour developed when I had a broken leg, he learned he could get away from me and once they know it is difficult to cure.
A Chiffney is really a professional tool to prevent rearing, I would tend to avoid its use day to day, we used to have stallions and they were taken to the mare twice a day and walked out etc, but I never saw a chiffney used on them.

 

[tabithakat64]

If the chain doesn't work then please use the chiffney with a lunge line and gloves.
Merl was absolutely dangerous to lead when I first had him and I used a chiffney until he learnt that this wasn't acceptable, that and being quick enough to use my elbow to stop him setting his neck.
Treating him really helped me as he was very food motivated having previously been starved. Id put the head collar on him give a treat walk to the gate, give a treat so he stood whilst I was doing the gate, one at the top of the drive and one when back in the stable.
Eventually he didn't need treats either so it can be done even with horses that are dreadful to lead.
Hope Ollie learns to behave himself eventually

 

[AmyMay]

Have you tried a Be Nice halter? They're quite good.

Also, what is the trigger for his behaviour?

 

[Exploding Chestnuts]

I had a thick type of training halter [shires] but the one that worked was the thin one, which was obviously more painful for him. A quick jab was needed the first few times, but generally if it was on, he was great, and it was easy to untie in the field.
He did all the pressure and release stuff, but it was his nature to be reactive, he was not bad.

 

[TheresaW]

Have you tried a Be Nice halter? They're quite good.

Also, what is the trigger for his behaviour?

I have tried the be nice halter, was ok a few times, but the first time he got loose in the road was with it. I always wear gloves when leading him, although not a gloves person. (Got severe rope burn with Mac once a few years ago and learnt my lesson).

There really is no trigger, that I can see. He will walk in lovely a lot of times, plenty of times he could be forgiven for being scared, and he's foot perfect.

I do lead him right handed ALL the time, and have elbow in his shoulder. Even if he comes out of field left handed, I make him stand whilst I switch hands, and he will stand.

 

[AmyMay]

Does what time of day it is have any affect, or whether horses have already been brought in?

 

[Brightbay]

Teabiscuit, we had a girl at the yard who swore by clicker training. I don't really understand it, and she was going to show me, but she has moved away now, so missed that opportunity.

Not at all - learning how to do it is no different from learning how to do all the other things suggested on this thread (and actually safer than many, since using discomfort to suppress behaviour only leads to situations where the horse's anxiety builds up and you get one of those explosions, where people say "it came out of the blue", whereas motivating the horse to behave to earn a reward tends to calm them if done well and make explosions less likely).
There are plenty of excellent on-line resources to help learn how to use clicker training safely. I know HHO doesn't like links to trainers, but have a google of ClixCollege, for example, or look on Amazon for Jenni Nellist's very simple intro to clicker training e-book

 

[wildwest]

try www.martynbeerhorsetraining.co.uk