Leading Advice

Mahoganybay

Mahoganybay

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Hi all, hope someone may be able to offer 'the lightbulb' help we need.

We have 16.2 IDx tank-like gelding who is becoming a real nuisance to lead in from the field.

We able to approach and catch him, he will walk with you like a little lamb lulling you into a false sense of security and then without warning he will turn to the right and run, he dosen't rear or strike out he just literally turns on a sixpence (which is amazing given the size of him) there is nothing you can do to stop him.

We have tried the following:

1. leading in a bridle - snapped the reins.
2. leading in a Dually & leadrope - still couldn't hold him leadrope dangling as he runs & got caught in his shoe/hoof.
3. leading in a Dually & 12ft line - still couldn't hold him 12ft line wrapped round his legs which was awful to watch as he just kept falling over.
4. leading in a Be Nice / headcollar with poll pressure - still couldn't hold him.

Because he is so strong the leadrope / 12ft line just goes through your fingers, nice rope burns if you don't have gloves on.

He is fine to lead round the yard and will do groundwork exercises in the menage backing up, turn on the forehand etc till the cows come home, he knows exactly what he is doing and to be honest knows his own strength, myself & my daughter are just no match for him, even my OH could not hold him.

Any suggestions at all - other than bloody hobbling him (just joking)......
 
Sounds really stupid, but what does he do if you lead him from the other side? That way, even if he goes off to the right, if you are leading him with a lunge line, then you can just send him round on a circle, and keep him going until you want to stop. Then ask him to halt, collect him up and then carry on. That way you don't need to try and hang on for dear life, just send him round and make it work - work makes things waaaaay less fun!
 
Nose in a feed bucket? (his nose, not yours ;))

Leading in following someone else? (not sure how practical this is...)

Getting a strong man to hold on for grim death?

Pre-empting him and making him walk the whole way doing big circles?

Going a different path? I.e. not following the same footfalls you normally do. Is he spooking at something maybe?

Will keep thinking!
 
Whacking him on a lunge rope and carrying a lunge whip, if he bombs off sending him off on a huge circle until the bugger tires out?!

ETA: sorry glosgirl just said this!
 
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glosgirl said:
Sounds really stupid, but what does he do if you lead him from the other side? That way, even if he goes off to the right, if you are leading him with a lunge line, then you can just send him round on a circle, and keep him going until you want to stop. Then ask him to halt, collect him up and then carry on. That way you don't need to try and hang on for dear life, just send him round and make it work - work makes things waaaaay less fun!
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Sorry, have tried that and he ran off to the left instead, and bloody still got away. He really is that fast.

Thanks for your reply.
 
Is he anxious to get back to the yard for his feed? If so look at the ingredients and see if you can work out what it is that he is so desperate for. I had a mare who was similar to yours - we had 2 people leading her, one at each side, at one point, then we realised that she couldn't eat sugar & cereals. She was like a different horse when we stopped feeding them to her. She had been like a drug addict rushing to get the next fix - in fact she had withdrawal symptoms for the first 3 days. Mine was absolutely fine going out in the morning.
 
Tried someone chasing him up from behind? Get two people to stand on either side being scary so he HAS to go forward or run into the scary beasts?!?!
 
flamehead said:
Nose in a feed bucket? (his nose, not yours ;))

Leading in following someone else? (not sure how practical this is...)

Getting a strong man to hold on for grim death?

Pre-empting him and making him walk the whole way doing big circles?

Going a different path? I.e. not following the same footfalls you normally do. Is he spooking at something maybe?

Will keep thinking!
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Done the nose in a feed bucket aswell, which to be honest did work on a couple of occasions when there was no grass, but he soon got wise to that and either gobbled the feed or left it & run off anyway.

The YO is a Dairy Farmer and he has offered to help, so that may be the way forward (he is used to dealing with bulls), my concern is that he won't be there everyday and as soon as we try ourselves the horse will know.

The making him walk the whole way in big circles may work, that i haven't thought off and will be worth a try, tire the bugger out before he gets to the gate and he is definatly not spooking at anything.

Thanks so much for your reply.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Is he anxious to get back to the yard for his feed? If so look at the ingredients and see if you can work out what it is that he is so desperate for. I had a mare who was similar to yours - we had 2 people leading her, one at each side, at one point, then we realised that she couldn't eat sugar & cereals. She was like a different horse when we stopped feeding them to her. She had been like a drug addict rushing to get the next fix - in fact she had withdrawal symptoms for the first 3 days. Mine was absolutely fine going out in the morning.
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It is when we are trying to lead him in from the field, it is the field he does not want to leave.

We have even tried two leadropes with a person at each side and the bugger just went backwards.
 
This might be extremely dangerous so if it is don't do it! But I do this with my OH.

When my yearling gets bolshy with me and pulls, I get my OH to hold the very end of the (extra long) lead rope, so that even if she pulls loose from me he still has hold and he's strong enough to keep hold and make her behave. Could you try getting the bull man to try once on his own and then try with you walking next to him and "leading", but the bull man holding the end of the lunge line and if your horse does bugger off then even if you cant hold on to him, your man can? And hopefully he'll think its you?!?

I would ask your man that if he does try to bolt he goes APE at your horse (im not suggesting hit him obviously but just yelling and shouting), then make him stand until he's bored stiff before HE asks him to walk on again.

I would definitely try turning in circles. Keep safe! xxxx
 
glosgirl said:
but I like how you put it!! sounds like he is being a right bugger!
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He is being a total bugger glosgirl, and frustrating the hell out of my daughter, we have never given up but sometimes it can take up to 2 hours to catch him, by that time we are all dripping in sweat and my daughter is red faced and shouting obcenities in the field - lol.

Am so glad i have my sweet mare, who comes to call...... bliss, got to love a mare
 
flamehead said:
This might be extremely dangerous so if it is don't do it! But I do this with my OH.

When my yearling gets bolshy with me and pulls, I get my OH to hold the very end of the (extra long) lead rope, so that even if she pulls loose from me he still has hold and he's strong enough to keep hold and make her behave. Could you try getting the bull man to try once on his own and then try with you walking next to him and "leading", but the bull man holding the end of the lunge line and if your horse does bugger off then even if you cant hold on to him, your man can? And hopefully he'll think its you?!?

I would ask your man that if he does try to bolt he goes APE at your horse (im not suggesting hit him obviously but just yelling and shouting), then make him stand until he's bored stiff before HE asks him to walk on again.

I would definitely try turning in circles. Keep safe! xxxx
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I am liking the turning in circles approach, but will consider your other suggestion if that fails.

I read somewhere about putting the leadrope under the horses nearside foreleg, so that the horses head is slightly down and when he pulls, he pulls against his own weight first, do you think that may work??

Thank you so much for all your advise, i really appreciate it.
 
Mahoganybay said:
I read somewhere about putting the leadrope under the horses nearside foreleg, so that the horses head is slightly down and when he pulls, he pulls against his own weight first, do you think that may work??
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It might well do, or he might give himself a real injury if he yanks and either cracks his leg or gives himself a rope burn. Would probably work but would definitely be a last approach!

I would try everything and anything. Does he back up on command? How long is the walk? Make him walk backwards the whole way to the gate?
 
Is he like this generally, or is he just tricky to lead? If he is a bit of a *** generally, then perhaps it is worth working on his ground work - making him back up from your voice and getting transitions on the lunge (again, just with your voice). If this clicks with him then perhaps the learning would transfer to being led?
My mare was an arse to lead (not quite the same as yours, not as fast, but just would walk at her pace and keep going despite the insignificant person on the end of the rope!). But she was generally very bargy in other situations on the ground aswell. So we taught her to back up to a word and then used this. Then when she barged when leading, she would be halted, asked to walk back, big pats, then we walked on. As soon as she barged, then we would do the same again. Sometimes getting to the field about 200m away it would take over 20 mins! Truly 2 steps forward, 3 back.
Not sure if it would work with yours as he is so quick, but perhaps if you could instill more respect to your space, it might help?
 
flamehead said:
It might well do, or he might give himself a real injury if he yanks and either cracks his leg or gives himself a rope burn. Would probably work but would definitely be a last approach!

I would try everything and anything. Does he back up on command? How long is the walk? Make him walk backwards the whole way to the gate?
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Yes, i did feel nervous about doing that as i don't want to injure the horse and i feel that a battle of strength is not the way forward, he is a rather large animal with massive everything (feet, chest, neck, bum etc) and we are just not going to win against him.

I am thinking that the trick is to try and out smart him (he is not very bright bless) and does not like anything that involves hardwork....

The walk is a 7acre field (depending on where he is stood in it), but we then have to come through a gate onto a long lane which leads down to a busy road at the end (and i obviously can't have him getting away from me on there and no there is no way the end of the lane can be gated unfortunatly). He does back up on command, so i am thinking lunging in circles in the field and then backing up the lane to the yard (approx 200m).

You have been so helpful, thanks again, this may be our 'lightbulb' moment. Keep your fingers crossed for us.
 
glosgirl said:
Is he like this generally, or is he just tricky to lead? If he is a bit of a *** generally, then perhaps it is worth working on his ground work - making him back up from your voice and getting transitions on the lunge (again, just with your voice). If this clicks with him then perhaps the learning would transfer to being led?
My mare was an arse to lead (not quite the same as yours, not as fast, but just would walk at her pace and keep going despite the insignificant person on the end of the rope!). But she was generally very bargy in other situations on the ground aswell. So we taught her to back up to a word and then used this. Then when she barged when leading, she would be halted, asked to walk back, big pats, then we walked on. As soon as she barged, then we would do the same again. Sometimes getting to the field about 200m away it would take over 20 mins! Truly 2 steps forward, 3 back.
Not sure if it would work with yours as he is so quick, but perhaps if you could instill more respect to your space, it might help?
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tbh, because of his size, the only leading we do is on the yard and groundwork exercises in the menage, although he is fine out at shows/event etc, he is just to big to 'take for a walk' and although he can be abit bargy he is generally ok, apart from a bit of head tossing when he wants to go faster than us. Working in the arena he is a poppet and will back up on command, walk at our pace etc, but yes i suppose he would benefit from a little more manners on the ground, but i think that in the field once he has the mindset to go, he just goes, it is breaking that cycle.

Thanks so much for your help, it really is appreciated.
 
Have you tried Join up? I know it's worked for a few, failing that effectively "free school" im in the field. Do you only catch him when he's ridden? Try catching him just for a groom, or some grass, or for feed, that way he wont associate you with work? :) Just an idea ;)
 
What a bugger!!! Definitely try a Chifney - they have a completely different action to a bridle.
You might be able to borrow one from the vets. Don't even try and walk him towards the gate - lots of circles, even lunge him in circles getting closer to the gate on each loop. If he thinks you do not want to take him in he might switch off about being so naughty. The rope burns are not good!!! I would lead him from the off side so he can't swing round that way and have someone following with a broom so if he goes backwards they can shove it at his bottom as long as they are not in danger of being kicked! Please, please do not try the rope under foreleg suggestion - sounds unbelievably dangerous to me. If all else fails I really would consult with Kelly Marks - they may have a genius solution. Keep us informed!!!!
 
You sound like you have my horse (just a couple of inches bigger!) It's a pain when theyknow their strength and just decide they don't fancy coming with you actually! mine has always been a ***** to lead although 95% of the time he is actually absilutely fine but if he decides he wants to bugger off he just turns, gets his nose down and goes, he uses his whole weight against you and you have no option but to let go.

I always used to wrap the leadrope round his nose and that works but you have to be careful the rope doesn't fall down onto the soft part of their nose as that can cause damage. When he was at college they used stallion chains (and two people! Lol) to lead him!

A couple of years ago I saw the Eskadron chain headcollar which is essentially having a permanent stallion chain, so basically like a choke chain for a dog. It works a treat so i would highly recommendone as it gives you your control back!
 
Brontie said:
Have you tried Join up? I know it's worked for a few, failing that effectively "free school" im in the field. Do you only catch him when he's ridden? Try catching him just for a groom, or some grass, or for feed, that way he wont associate you with work? :) Just an idea ;)
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He joins up like a star and we never just catch him to ride, on the days that he is not ridden either myself or my daughter will go into the field and just sit with him, give him a scratch, he quite often just comes in for a groom and a feed and then goes back out.

It really is the case of 'i'm not coming in & you can't make me', it does seem to be all on his terms.

Thanks for your thoughts.
 
huntley said:
What a bugger!!! Definitely try a Chifney - they have a completely different action to a bridle.
You might be able to borrow one from the vets. Don't even try and walk him towards the gate - lots of circles, even lunge him in circles getting closer to the gate on each loop. If he thinks you do not want to take him in he might switch off about being so naughty. The rope burns are not good!!! I would lead him from the off side so he can't swing round that way and have someone following with a broom so if he goes backwards they can shove it at his bottom as long as they are not in danger of being kicked! Please, please do not try the rope under foreleg suggestion - sounds unbelievably dangerous to me. If all else fails I really would consult with Kelly Marks - they may have a genius solution. Keep us informed!!!!
Click to expand...

I have to admit i have never used a chifney, and they scare the bejesus out of me, so would need to enlist the help of a professional.
 
ladyt25 said:
You sound like you have my horse (just a couple of inches bigger!) It's a pain when theyknow their strength and just decide they don't fancy coming with you actually! mine has always been a ***** to lead although 95% of the time he is actually absilutely fine but if he decides he wants to bugger off he just turns, gets his nose down and goes, he uses his whole weight against you and you have no option but to let go.

I always used to wrap the leadrope round his nose and that works but you have to be careful the rope doesn't fall down onto the soft part of their nose as that can cause damage. When he was at college they used stallion chains (and two people! Lol) to lead him!

A couple of years ago I saw the Eskadron chain headcollar which is essentially having a permanent stallion chain, so basically like a choke chain for a dog. It works a treat so i would highly recommendone as it gives you your control back!
Click to expand...

It is so frustrating isn't it? I really feel we have tried everything.

Have tried the leadrope round the nose and he still went with the thing fastened tight round his nose, so did not like that one.

Will have a look at that Eskadron Chain Headcollar.

Many thanks for the suggestion.
 
Agree with the chifney, or try riding him up out of the field. A quick brush over and tack up where he stands, then send him on, worth a try perhaps
 
My horse does exactly as yours does, was a nightmare when I was on a big yard where everyone lived out 24/7 in summer, only a problem in winter if I wanted to get him in before everyone else started catching in. The usual controller halters, chiffneys etc only really work on horses that tank forwards, not the ones that spin and go. You can only get them to lunge round you if you can get their head round to you, and if you were able to do that in the first place they wouldn't be able to get away from you to start with! What I found effective was to attach a piece of thin rope to the headcollar, to put round his nose but back through the headcollar and not looped through itself, this way you don't need to keep the pressure up all the time to stop the rope slipping off his nose. Have the headcollar a little lower so the thin rope is more on the sensitive part and attach your lead rope to this. Keep relaxed, and when you feel him start to "swing" throw all your weight on the rope (do gooders.... yes I'm sure it will hurt but he has choices too, as you are able to keep the rope relaxed until he buggers off he can avoid hurting himself)! to pull him up sharp. My horse has never lost the habit completely, but they are very half hearted attempts now (he just likes me to know that he could go... if he really, really wanted to)!
Sometimes I got my OH to get him in for me, and he's got a lot more strength than me, and he managed it by keeping his head down low, as he needs to get his head up to get that swing going!
Good luck!
 
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