Learned bad behaviour?

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CBAnglo

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My 6 yr old has started rearing. His stable mate is a constant rearer and when ridden in the school rears all the time when he is spooked/naps; owner just hangs on but doesn't do anything to stop him. The stables overlook the school so he watches every time a horse is in the school.

The past couple of times when I have hacked out mine has reared when he is scared of something. Previously he would have just stopped or maybe spun around but I have always just pushed him forward. The first time he reared he caught me completely off guard so he went up twice. I managed to stay on but didn't do anything proactive as I was so shocked that he had reared. The next time was during a lesson and my instructor shouted at me to turn him in a circle and ride him forwards; he produced some lovely work at that point and when I felt him think about raising his front legs I turned him and ride him forward.

All fine; then I took him out again on his own. Dog came running up to him and he decided he wanted to go up again; I turned him and he didn't manage to get his front legs off the ground.

Fast forward a couple of weeks and we were trotting around the edge of a field bird came out spooked him and he went side ways (did not rear) and I exited out of the side door. First fall (have had him 2 yrs). It was stupid and my fault but I was just glad that he hadn't reared.

Today went out with another horse; going past a hedge with a house in the other side. Something came rushing up to the hedge and set the other horse off cantering sideways. I had my horse and at that point he goes up. I immediately pull him to the left and stop him going up again. Try to get him over to the other side of the field and he isn't having it and tries to go up. I held him by turning him again. Other horse comes past (from behind) and then my horse goes up again and I can't stop him. He goes up again and I jump off and hold him. He tries to go up but I am on the ground holding him and he is genuinely scared (shaking and breathing fire).

All the while on this hack he has been an arse; jogging throwing his head around. We had a trot and canter and he was fine (still tossing his head about though this is new but there are lots of midges about and pollen and when I first got him he had started head tossing around this time which we put down to flies/pollen. He was fine after a couple of weeks when the trees stopped chucking poem about).

I am at a loss as to what to do; I was not quick enough to hit him over the head which is what so many people have told me to do. I have never had a rearer and I am just really upset and emotional about it as I feel as though I have caused this. Whether it was exposing him to a rearer (did he learn this behaviour because the other horse always gets out of it once he rears) or is there an underlying issue. He has been checked by Chiro and dentist in last 2 months and is turned out every day for 10 hours and had no hard feed.

Should I just try riding him in the school and not hack to see if he does this again? If he goes up should I just hit him over the head (if I am quick enough?). If it was just a teenage tantrum then I can handle it but if this is now learned behaviour I am just lost as I don't think this can be trained out of the horse. He doesn't look lame (vet checked him a couple off this ago) but the stroppiness is just getting worse. He can work so well; we had a lesson on sat and he was so good didn't do anything just silly spooking.
 
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Rearing can be trained out of a horse. My OTTB used to be a serious rearer (he was so balanced that he could walk on his hind legs)rained it out of him and he is now a successful event horse.
In my experience horses usually rear when they are told to do something that they don't want to do, and try to get away from it by scaring the rider.

My advice to you would be to pull him on a circle to stop him from going up (like your insructor said) and kick him as hard as you can and ride him forward. You need to be strict with him and punish him whenever he rears. He sounds as if he is playing around with you and trying to figure out what he can get away with.

If you are fast enough you can try hitting him on the head- some people even say with an egg or a water balloon so he thinks he's bleeding on his head! I've never tried this but I have a friend who has and her horse stopped rearing completely.

But the best way to go is to be strict with your horse and punish him whenever he does this. That said don't forget to praise him when he's a good boy!
 
I have just bought a book from world of books called breaking bad habits in horses cost £1.98 plus pp, do buy one very very good reading, sadly too much for me to type here for you about what to do, but yes it can be broken. Remember there is always a reason why a horse does something, fear, spoilt, pain etc.

to break it in process you need to disengage the hindquarters so that means whilst horse is rearing pull it to the right which will unbalance it and it will stop the rear, constanly doing this may make it give up, but why is it doing it, ofcourse it is a form of napping
 
Also you need to ride more positively dont think its going to happen and wait for it to happen to pull your egg out of your pocket to break between the ears, just think forward and ride forward
 
Thanks for your responses.

I genuinely do believe that this is a confidence issue; out in the new hacking it has happened twice in the exact same place. Nowhere else (apart from the dog incident - I had forgotten that one. That was not in the scary field). We had hacked through the scary field once before and he had been nervous and nappy (just planted and required PC kicks to go forward) but the other horse I was with had stayed calm-ish (she jogged the entire way round)). We then went out the next weekend alone, into the scary field and he tensed up and then reared twice. In the same spot he napped previously. This was the first time he has reared with me in the 2 yrs of owning him and I was just shocked. They were proper standing on back legs waving front legs around rears. I managed to turn him for home and make him walk all they way (he was ready to run). I haven't been to the scary field since. I then went out again last weekend with another horse, hoping he would gain confidence from the other horse (who hacks round that field more regularly). Horse I was with went mental and ran off cantering sideways and I wouldn't let him follow so he was faced with the scary thing alone. That is when reared twice, then I turned him so he couldn't rear again and I could calm him down. As the horse came cantering past from behind he managed to get up again (I think once) and I jumped off to save any further incident (he unseated me in the last rear). He was shaking and I led him past (he tried to rear but I had both reins so turned him in a circle - luckily I have done 2 yrs of ground work with him and schooling in hand so was able to control him on the ground. Walked him past the scary bit, other horse followed and then I got back on. We went round the way we came and as soon as we came parallel to the scary spot, he tensed again (we were on the other side of a huge field by then).

He doesn't normally display this kind of napping behavior and didn't with our old hacking routes - normally he will plant or try to back up and I just send him forwards (praising for all steps forward). Shoulder in was the first thing I taught him before I even took him out.

In the new hacking he has been incredibly tense all the way round and I have firmly put leg on; its just this particular field where he is absolutely terrified.

So plan of action (I think) is to continue hacking but go with someone on foot; question is whether we go to the scary field and I just jump off and lead past (I have never been one for doing this before but I have never felt him this scared) or do I just build him up on nice little comfortable hacks to get confidence back first, then approach the scary field with the above?

When I first got him he built up his confidence by going out with my other boy who is a spooking/napping nightmare but boss of the field so very good at pushing horses from behind. My horse would nap at anything and buck as soon as we cantered and pony did nothing just sort of looked at him. My horse would regularly also run off and little pony would be cantering along behind, until he caught up. However, the stable mate in my OP (5 yr old) started rearing when being ridden (not going to get into the cause of the rearing) but it resulted in the rider backing off so I wondered if he had learnt this behavior from that.

sorry for the essay; I tend to over analyse everything in my head and re-live situations wondering what I should have done better. With the rearing in the school, he saw something coming round the corned of the school (which is hedge lined) and went up. I walk cooling him off on a long rein so again I was asleep. I would never be like that on one of my other horses (TBs) but as pony is a Connemara I think I underestimate how sensitive he is. I think because up until now he has been a doddle compared with my other youngsters who have always been drama.

Not sure about the egg/hitting over the head thing. It just does not feel right to me. I will look into the book suggested; thanks for the recommendation.
 
I remember a thread similar to this a while back and the general consensus was hitting the horse on the head (to make it think it had hit the "ceiling") or cracking an egg over it's head (to make it think it's bleeding) are probably not the best solutions to the problem as 1) you have to be pretty damn quick and 2) there is no real evidence as such that it definitely works to stop the rearing on a permanent basis.

Personally as long as all the checks have been done by the vet/edt/physio/farrier and the horse is given the all clear (ulcers maybe?) I would be inclined to think that your horse is feeling a bit full of himself and has learned a new get out of work free trick.

I have ridden a few rearers in my time, I would just do what your instructor has suggested and stop the rear when you feel it happening by turning and pushing them forward, if this is not possible or (as does happen) you aren't quick enough to stop it before it happens, as long as your horse has the self preservation not to chuck itself over backwards I would sit it and basically ignore it and then ride it forwards.

It may be a good idea to learn the emergency dismount from a rear if you don't already know it, I have had to use it once before but it's better safe than sorry if you feel you need it.

I hope you manage to get on ok, keep us updated? Possibly once the novelty of spring grass has worn off and the pollen has died down a bit it may get better?
 
From your second post OP I would agree it does sound like a confidence issue. You need a hacking companion that is really very sensible and steady, or an on foot hacking partner who can lead you past the difficult areas.

Failing that I would go with a bit of confidence building until you feel ready to tackle the "scarier" hack, do not give in and turn for home though, even if it means you go back a bit after a rear, turn and walk forward a bit and then get off (don't get off immediately after a rear) and lead past the "scary" bit(s) until you can hack all the way round.

You'll get there :)
 
Thanks both; yes all usual checks been done; generally his schooling has come on leaps and bounds this year. He is just learning to do simple changes. All checked re stomach etc as he was quite poorly last year with a virus so everything was checked at the time. He also had a bad reaction to antibiotics . He came back into work in beginning of February fine just lots of hacking as lastyear he seemed to be lacking in oompf which I thought was a fitness/schooling thing but actually it was his liver (showed zero signs of a virus the vets thought I was mad on insisting on bloods. This was on the basis of my Chiro who said there was something not quite right about his liver!)

Anyway I digress. Ideally I would hack out with something steady but both my other horses are now retired (and neither were steady hacks - one cantered round sideways and would bog off at any opportunity and the other would nap at anything and buck and spin). The sad thing is that pony used to nanny round all the other horses! However they are now kept on their own so no-one to go out with (except original companion who was not helpful the last time).

I think you are right though once he rears I just keep turning him and not sending him forwards enough(in the fear, however subconscious, that he will go up again). It's been 8 yrs since I have had a youngster and I think I am just too old and nervous about hitting the deck whereas before I would have pushed forward (as I said before I am not one to get off; last weekend was the first time and that is because he unseated me which he didn't manage in previous rears).
 
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CBAnglo said:
I think you are right though once he rears I just keep turning him and not sending him forwards enough(in the fear, however subconscious, that he will go up again). It's been 8 yrs since I have had a youngster and I think I am just too old and nervous about hitting the deck whereas before I would have pushed forward (as I said before I am not one to get off; last weekend was the first time and that is because he unseated me which he didn't manage in previous rears).
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I totally understand that, I'm only 29 but have lost my no fear attitude that I had as a teenager, as you get older you realise just how breakable you are :o
Don't feel as though getting off and leading is defeat though, it can be a useful tool and provide the ends to a positive outcome.
Have you got anyone who can walk out with you?

Since all the usual medical things have been checked it sounds like you just need the patience and perseverance to work through the difficult teenage period :)
 
Actually I agree with everything that's been said except the getting off and leading. The horse needs to learn to go forwards, it doesn't take long for a horse to learn that when they fidget as the rider is getting on they don't get ridden. Or worse the rider can be dumped on the way up and the horse goes home, believe me, I broke my coccyx after being advised (against my better judgement) to do just this!

You are far safer, and have far more control, if you stay on the horse. Getting off teaches the horse how to get out of work not how to get on with what's in front of them.

If he long lines I would do that passed the scary object, or I would have a safe companion to go with you next time. Tantrums should not be pandered to.
 
Is there someone you can get to see the situation, sit on the horse, and help you in person? I agree there are lots of things to try but it's difficult to say the best way forward for you and your horse from the internet. The best advice for one situation could be the worst for another.

Don't try to crack an egg on its head. Seriously, who are all the people who are succeeding with this method?? Plus there is a pretty good chance you will lose your balance trying and shock the horse into falling on you. This will not improve things.

Do you hack in a body protector? I find some people feel more confident to deal with a dodgy moment if they feel well protected.
 
Yes I will drag someone out on foot; we will do the easier/less scary hacks but I think it is important to get him out again as I don't want him to become afraid of hacking (especially as it was his favourite thing apart from jumping).

Another thought I had was to take him back to his old hacking to see if that gives him some more confidence. Not sure if this is a good or bad idea - I would normally just get on with the new hacking but this is only his 3rd ever home and we don't compete so he doesn't get out much. My other two were used to going out all the time, so although were silly they weren't scared of new situations.
 
Tinsel Trouble said:
Actually I agree with everything that's been said except the getting off and leading. The horse needs to learn to go forwards, it doesn't take long for a horse to learn that when they fidget as the rider is getting on they don't get ridden. Or worse the rider can be dumped on the way up and the horse goes home, believe me, I broke my coccyx after being advised (against my better judgement) to do just this!

You are far safer, and have far more control, if you stay on the horse. Getting off teaches the horse how to get out of work not how to get on with what's in front of them.

If he long lines I would do that passed the scary object, or I would have a safe companion to go with you next time. Tantrums should not be pandered to.
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I would normally agree; this is the first time I have ever gotten off any horse I normally have just pushed them past (or backwards/sideways etc) past something. However this time not only was there genuine fear, but the other horse was going mental so even when I calmed him down, the other horse was so unhelpful and set him off again. Once I had jumped off and lead him away not only did she calm down but so did he and we continued on the hack home. Question is, do I push the issue of the scary field (with someone on foot to lead past?) or just build confidence first then go with the above?

TarrSteps said:
Is there someone you can get to see the situation, sit on the horse, and help you in person? I agree there are lots of things to try but it's difficult to say the best way forward for you and your horse from the internet. The best advice for one situation could be the worst for another.

Don't try to crack an egg on its head. Seriously, who are all the people who are succeeding with this method?? Plus there is a pretty good chance you will lose your balance trying and shock the horse into falling on you. This will not improve things.

Do you hack in a body protector? I find some people feel more confident to deal with a dodgy moment if they feel well protected.
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I do not feel right about the hitting over the head/egg thing. I probably would not be quick enough (no point unless he is actually on back legs) and now that he has done it half a dozen times I am not sure what it will achieve (and will p1ss him off most likely). Trouble is that my instructor is older (65) and I would feel dreadful if he hurt her. I don't really have anyone else who could ride him.

She saw him go up in the school and she said although he was genuinely scared that this was not an acceptable response and therefore as soon as I felt the shoulders even remotely come off the ground then to put leg on and immediately ask for a flexion and make him work. This has worked the times when I have been quick enough, the problem being that he has caught me off guard a couple of times now so I am worried that the more this goes on, the more it becomes learned bad behaviour.

I do have a BP but admit I only wear it for jumping; I will dig it out and see if that helps. The thing is, I am not scared whilst it is all happening - I think something in brain just kicks in and makes me react, the problem is afterwards when I think about what might/could happen next time that I start letting the fear creep in. Although I fully accept that I may not be pushing him forwards enough when there is an "episode" in case it leads to more rearing.

Thanks; some more things to think about.
 
Tinsel Trouble said:
The horse needs to learn to go forwards, it doesn't take long for a horse to learn that when they fidget as the rider is getting off (sorry I assumed you meant off) they don't get ridden. Or worse the rider can be dumped on the way up and the horse goes home, believe me, I broke my coccyx after being advised (against my better judgement) to do just this!

You are far safer, and have far more control, if you stay on the horse. Getting off teaches the horse how to get out of work not how to get on with what's in front of them.

Tantrums should not be pandered to.
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Generally I would agree with this but if it is going to be a constant battle to get a horse genuinely rearing through fear past it so it just keeps going up and possibly escalating to going over I would get off after the rear is over, the horse is under control and going on a good note before trying to lead past the object that caused the rear if that makes sense?
So the horse has reared in fear - yes still not an acceptable reaction and you don't want to pander to him - you turn him and try again and again but still get the same rear reaction I would consider walking off in another direction even for a few calm steps, get off and then lead past the scary object just in the interest of getting them past and showing them it's not actually scary. Obviously the preference would be not to have to get off and definitely not to get off immediately after the rear because that just teaches Rear = no work hence why I suggested getting someone else to go out with the OP who would be able to lead past the scary bits :)
 
Sandi: this was exactly my interpretation of last weeks hack. I calmed him down to get off I felt if I pushed on he would go up again (despite any measures on my part) and I didn't want that to be the learned response. I didn't go past the scary object though as even in hand he wanted to rear and the other horse was not being helpful as she was spinning and cantering sideways and coming up behind etc.

I guess my main question now is do you try to approach scary thing again now or build up confidence over the next couple of weeks and then go past scary thing. Regardless I will not be going out alone; not so much through fear of coming off but if I did come off and he was as terrified as he was last week then he might bolt home and he would have to cross a road to get there.
 
I'd be tempted to confidence build first but I suppose it's really up to how you think your horse will react?
 
To me this sounds like a confidence issue and so you've been given some sound advice I think.

However I do think a hit on the head can be effective in the right circumstances. As a youngster my made was a nappy PITA but more from stubbornness than fear. She can take the pee if she thinks she has the upper hand and so once when she reared on the road after planting she got a crack on the poll. But she's a wiley wee thing and would quickly use it against me, so no way was I accepting that. I think the timing was right for her as well, she's never reared again, the most is little bunny hops in front when excited but that's about it. I'm not recommending it for all horses, my mare's thick skinned and stubborn and can take a telling off, whereas my Connie gelding would have had a meltdown.
 
Hmm it's interesting. Without the current behaviour I would be tempted to just get on with it and hack round scary field however in view of the fact that I couldn't even walk him in hand past perhaps the safest thing to do is build up confidence first. I don't have time to hack during the week so it's very much a weekend job.
 
Charmin said:
To me this sounds like a confidence issue and so you've been given some sound advice I think.

However I do think a hit on the head can be effective in the right circumstances. As a youngster my made was a nappy PITA but more from stubbornness than fear. She can take the pee if she thinks she has the upper hand and so once when she reared on the road after planting she got a crack on the poll. But she's a wiley wee thing and would quickly use it against me, so no way was I accepting that. I think the timing was right for her as well, she's never reared again, the most is little bunny hops in front when excited but that's about it. I'm not recommending it for all horses, my mare's thick skinned and stubborn and can take a telling off, whereas my Connie gelding would have had a meltdown.
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Yes I think my Connie would take a similar approach. I think I will try building up confidence with someone on the ground so I do not have to get off again unless absolutely have to and/or safe to do so.
 
I wish you good luck, my Connie lad used to spin and run off but with a lot of patience he eventually came right!
 
Update: Just thought I would post an update in case anyone was wondering how I got on with the rearing pony. Well, the next day I decided to go down and have a low pressure schooling session - just some stretching and lateral work, nothing too much for him but enough to keep him thinking so he didn't have time to be naughty.

Horse felt weird straight away (I had been getting this feeling for a while but as it was always coupled with rearing/spooking it was hard to determine if horse was off or just reacting to things). Decided not to do anything and sat with him in his stable. He was his usual claustrophobic self (he follows you around endlessly like a puppy) and kept snuffling my hair and pockets. He seemed very happy in himself but I just couldn't put my finger on what felt off. Got vet out to do blood tests the next day (he had had a virus the previous year with raised liver enzymes hence the time off earlier in the year and the slowly bringing back into work). Unfortunately liver enzymes raised again (no virus) but this time worse than last year. I could have cried. So I think I have got to the bottom of his nappiness - he just couldn't go forward and the more I pushed the more upset he got. So when something spooked him he was already so wound up that he just over-reacted to the whole thing. Of course he cant be ridden so I cant test this.

Vet did a thorough check of him (as I told him that he felt off) trotted up, took temp/heart rate etc and couldn't find anything wrong with him. Thought I was bonkers for ordering the bloods (pony looking very well at the moment so no-one would suspect he has a problem with his liver). So I am sad and happy at the same time. I still don't know what is wrong with him (had biopsy last week - had to wait 4 weeks to get that booked!) and waiting for results today ...

On the off chance I also had one of my others tested - the retired one. He came back also with raised liver enzymes, and again he is looking very well at the moment. So now I have to get the third one tested (tomorrow) after we find out the results of the biopsy today.

I am so glad that I didn't push the issue; I guess I have never really felt a bond with this pony, even after two years, like I did with my retired one when I knew him so well that I could tell when something was off. But the huge change in his personality should have alerted me to the fact that there was something wrong sooner. He had had a blood test in March and it was all clear but it must have come back the following month when "the troubles" began and although at first I put it down to new hacking etc I should have trusted how genuine he is (and IMHO how genuine all horses are). He just looked so well and ridden wise he came on so much in that time; he is always running about in the field and bullying my ex-racer so no-one would ever think there was anything wrong with him. Even after the biopsy on Friday he bounced around the stable afterwards and my vet said you would never have imagined that he had had an invasive procedure just a couple of hours before.
 
With the liver enzymes it might be worth looking up KatPT (search for "bonkers black pony") as she has a similar problem last year.
 
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