Learning the job

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icestationzebra

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Another post on here as made me think.... how long do you give a young horse to learn it's job - whatever that may be. I know some horses are naturally very good XC, it takes others a bit longer to cotton on but how do you gauge if you are giving them enough time. I have always believed that most horses that are willing to learn will try and do the job for you if they trust you, have been allowed to grow their confidence at a pace that is right for them and they want to work for you. This could apply to all 3 phases of eventing not just the XC. A well respected pro rider told a clinic I took part in that he believed if you could get the horse understanding his job and that he was confident to do it - he would enjoy it and really try - on the other hand rushing a horse to get results would be detrimental in the long run as they wouldn't really understand what it was all about and would just go through the motions never really enjoying it. What do you think?
My last horse hated dressage - our first eventing test scored us 50
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I worked and worked at it and finally got a 33 about 4 years later.... I perservered because his XC was good. Not sure I would have if every phase had been such a struggle!
Interested to hear other's views on this.
 
My horse's dressage is appauling, partly because of my riding, partly because he is big and unbalanced. Only in the last month has he muscled up and got balanced enough to produce some reasonable work, and that is still only at home! We have issues with straightness, but it is all slowly starting to come together now. His SJ was also very hit and miss - he liked to use speed to throw himself over which goes back to the lack of muscle/balance problem with the flatwork. However, XC he has always been a machine, and he totally loves his job, so even though our results are nothing special, he has stayed as he is also very trainable. Last season a pro told me to stop messing about at intro and take him Novice but I knew there was no way either of us was ready for that. This year a different pro has told me he thinks he will go advanced (although I am the first to admit there is very little chance it will be with me!!) and wanted to know where he could get one!!
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So even though he is now seven (he was 5 and a half when I bought him), he still hasn't gone Novice (rained off, gah!) and rather than rush to get one 'under my belt', I have backed off, had lots of flat lessons and concentrated on SJ so hopefully when we start again at the end of August/beginning of september (or next season if it doesnt stop bloody raining) we will both be confident and happy.

He has always given me an awesome feel over a fence, but it has taken hard work and perseverance to get this far - when I first got him I had to run him into a wall to stop as he had no brakes!

I think for me the clincher has always been that he will always try for me, even if he has a bit of a strop for five minutes, he will always give it a go! So he gets all the time he needs.

Plus (and for me this is a biggy) I am an amateur, not a professional, and will never be more than that. So if it takes me 2 years to get to the point a pro could have got to in six months, well so be it, it is not exactly surprising is it?! It would probably take a pro rider 2 years to do something in my job I could do in 6 months too!
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Damn, this is really long, sorry!
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Great reply! I'm glad it is all coming together for you - I think I remember when you first got him
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An amateur will never be able to produce a horse at the speed a pro can - ability aside - there are other constraints like having a full time job and of course the ££! Perserverance and hard work do reap rewards and of course the building of the partnership. Got to be rewarding though hey?
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Thankyou! TBH in his favour is the fact that the last one was so very untrainable, so even what counts as a big strop for him is nothing compared to what she could throw at me!!

Full time work seriously hampers my fun, especially in the summer when I can work long and odd hours, and money is always an issue.

It is so rewarding though - one of the nicest things was lending him to a teenager a couple of weeks ago so she could have a confidence building jumping lesson on him. He was angelic, she had great fun, and I just thought how far he has come as even at the beginning of this year I wouldn't have lent him to someone for that purpose as he still rushed his fences a bit.
 
I had been reading that post too, and think it's very easy to make a snap decision (or ask a pro's opinion and have them make a snap decision!) about whether a horse will do a job or not. I think their temperament/attitude is the most important thing, as some horses with less talent will try their hearts out and others more talented can't be bothered to put themselves out for you.

I had a horse years ago that had come from Holland as a 6yr old. He moved beautifully, was clean jumping and was never a natural cross country (he hated water!), but he got confidence the more he did. Unfortunately he was one who would rather stop than touch a fence, so as we went up the levels he was frustrating to showjump and a bit precious cross country. I should really have accepted earlier that he wasn't going to be what I wanted and sold him on, but I hung in there hoping he would get to love eventing as much as I do! He got to advanced and was placed at ** , but I eventually his stopping showjumping was ruining my confidence so I sold him to do dressage.

I now always buy 3yr olds so that I know any problems along the way are my doing, and I let them tell me when they're ready to do more. I've got one who was so lacking in confidence as a 5yr old yet as a 6yr old got 26 points, and the other one I have is 5 and so brave and confident that I'm having to wait until his body is mature enough to keep up with his brain before I can do more.

I think it's important to take things a step at a time and be methodical, thorough and thoughtful in training your horse, rather than going on a wing and a prayer - if you do that you may get away with it once or twice but it'll come back at you at a later date.

Sorry for the long winded reply
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Yeah i couldn't agree more with all the above. I think you just get to learn the personality of each individual horse and you learn to judge what they can cope with and when. My last horse was so brave you could chuck anything at him and he'd have a go, this one needs more time to get her confidence and build up gradually.
But then having said that, the former had a real awkward streak in him and at times would just completely chuck it, some days you just had to put him away as you just couldn't do anything with him. In the end I sold him as I just found him so frustrating, he had all the talent in the world but you just couldn't get it out of him as he was always looking for a way to avoid doing what you wanted - the only time we were on the same wavelength was cross country! Whereas the little mare I have now has the most fantastic temperament, which for me is worth her weight in gold. Temperament over raw talent fo rme every time!!
 
You must be dead proud of him
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I bet you would agree that you have learned loads along the way? That's what I enjoy about it all - the education - whether it be a good or bad day - you take something from it and learn
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Great reply Nicky. Totally agree with taking each horse as an individual and making your decisions on their progress/training based on what they tell you they are happy with. The amount of people I know/have known the past that were told their horses would amount to not very much by a pro - only for them to come good - sometimes years later!! I guess the point of that is that pros are on a tight timescale whether it is producing horses at pace in order to sell, or getting a string a top horses to see them in contention for team selection, and the amateur perhaps makes their decisions on a more emotional level?
As they say though - one mans rubbish is another's treasure - so there are horses out there disgarded by pros that have made lovely horses for people at the lower levels.
 
I think they are always learning tbh, and depending on their individual experiences they can become stronger in one area than another. A naturally bold horse XC can have one bad experience which will drop them down to starting from scratch again, whereas a wimpy cautious horse can become braver as time goes on with careful producing and "selected" experiences. Also a not so bold horse can be made more bold if they have an exceptionally bold jockey on board, and a brave horse can be ruined by some one who dithers about. Most horses dont mature until 7 anyway....
 
A lot of horses will take confidence from a confident rider as long as that rider is educated enough to know when enough is enough on that day. It's so easy to just jump one more bigger fence, or one more difficult combination, and spoil all the confidence you've just built up.

That Dutch horse I had was ridden by WFP at Burgie ** and was 4th (I'd had a car crash and had dodgy eyesight for a while!), and I managed a double clear at Windsor** on him, but no amount of confident riding would convince him that eventing was really great fun. I hunted him, I did everything I could to try and get him on my side but to no avail, and this was over 4 years so no-one could accuse me of giving up easily!
 
I don't think what you did was giving up Nicky - far from it. And of course, having got this a horse to advanced is hardly a failure!! I was interested to read that you now only take on youngsters. I guess it is great to know all their history and education - and as you say that any mistakes are yours to sort out.
 
Part of my decision to only have youngsters is financial! Have you seen the price of nice 4/5yr olds nowadays....
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I bought my two from the same breeder as they seem to have the kind of attitude that suits me down to the ground and, as you say, it's great to know their history and education. The next one on my shopping list - once I've saved up - from the same breeder, is out of a mare I had on loan a few years ago who I got to intermediate level before she went back to stud, and is by the same sire as my 5yr old, so you'd think that would be on my wavelength, wouldn't you?!
 
Indeed I have seen the prices
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4/5 year olds with 'potential' or a couple of decent 'young horse classes' under their belts are almost outpricing nice 7 year olds that have been working slowly up the grades.

Now that we are talking 'ingredients' of a good event horse - and one that will suit you - this youngster sounds spot on! You must be excited
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How old is this baby and how quickly can you save up!
 
Excellent thread, with several interesting points. I know many of the legends of eventing - Murphy Himself, King William, Over to You - were undoubtedly born to it, but I think many good eventers are "made", which doesn't necessarily mean they've been grilled, far from it, but it means a rider has taught them what they are capable of. I try to keep in my head at all times when I am riding that whatever horse I'm on is capable of most dressage movements and the dimensions of even 4* from a young age - just watch them in the field - I simply have to find ways to show them how they can reproduce that with a rider on board and to order! This is also a bit of a bug-bear of mine at 3 and 4* levels now - course builders IMO are relying far too much on skinnies and turns, thereby taking away the fun element for horses, and frequently punishing the bold enthusiastic ones. I watched Punchestown on Sky the other night and it really wasn't that pretty - if a horse made a lovely big bold jump it usually had to get smacked in the teeth to turn to an accuracy question in time. I thought Badminton looked the same on tv too.

I've rambled away from the point slightly there, sorry. But coming back to it (!), I think it does boil down to treating each horse as an individual. Re the pro's/am's: I remember a quote from Gary Parsonage when he was part of the team in the 90's with Magic Rogue. He said something along the lines of it was that horse that put him on the map, and that meant he got in a lot more clients' horses. However, had the same horse come along as a youngster when Gary had become an established pro he never would have had the time that he needed devoted to him in the formative years of his career, and so he would have been moved along. Interesting isn't it?
 
I like the prices of 4/5yr olds, but only when I'm thinking of selling!

He seems to have all the right ingredients, but only time will tell. He's 2 and originally I was going to have him next autumn when he'd been shown in hand a bit more, but the breeder is under pressure from her husband as he says she has too many (me no understand "too many" when it's comes to horses
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), so I'm having him after the SHB show at Addington in September. Guess who won't be having much retail therapy between now and then.
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I've gone way off the point too, but I agree completely about each horse being treated as an individual and I'm lucky that I have the time to do that. I also know that as my horses are pretty laid back and easy to do, if I did want to sell them there would be a ready market for them. The Dutch horse was most definitely quirky and not everyone's cup of tea!

I don't envy the pros as there must be a lot of pressure on them from owners to get their horse to the top by a certain age, one level up each season, and this must be why quite a few fall by the wayside when all they needed was a bit more time (sorry if that's a sweeping generalisation, and I do appreciate that not all pros are like that!)

I think the post that prompted ISZ originally is a classic example of someone who has set themselves an impossible task, and taken a pro as a benchmark. I enjoy my horses every day and the competitions are the icing on the cake, so a bit of progress at home is (almost) as rewarding as a rosette!
 
It is an easy trap to fall into, I came very close to doing the same, and went through a crap time with it! Have chilled out a bt now, acknowledged the horse is for ME and we have years to perfect it, and now hopefully our resulyts are on an upward spiral....but it easily done! BUT you have to take a step back and think about the situation you are in as a person, and why you do the sport.....and horses are not machines!!
 
Agree that it is a very easy trap to fall into
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I'm not an eventer in any shape or form, but there is alot of pressure within polocrosse to have 4yo's singing, dancing and doing the washing up. I fell into that trap and almost ruined my youngster in the process, which I will never forgive myself for, BUT I have learnt my lesson the hard way, and won't be repeating it. The youngster is now going out and doing a bit of anything and everything that doesn't involve polocrosse, and I'll see what she thinks of it next season when she's at a more suitably mature stage.
With her, as you said in your original post ISZ, she was going through the motions rather than understanding and enjoying. If she ever plays again it will only be after very thorough preparation.
 
well you know all about Hattie ISZ - but its taken us a good year to get her going consistently well XC and even now she is still looky at water. It's just taken loads of time persuading her that it was her idea in the first place that she enjoyed XC and that it was not us telling her she enjoyed it. Now yr and 1/2 down the line she enjoys it because she loves XC and not because ive asked her to enjoy it - think this is definitely a mare thing!

Fiddler on the other hand had always known his craft - from a very green 5 yr old he always went clear SJ and XC unless something went very wrong just because he always wanted to please and he always loved his job - but then i was only young and when i first got him we were only jumping 2'6'' so he had plenty of time to get experience at lower levels while i was still learning
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Keep going with Jemima
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you're bringing her on so nicely and she's such a gorgeous mare! i cant wait to get to an event when the two WFM's can finally meet each other
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I think this may have been posted on the back of my post - which is cool. some good views, but some horses just dont want to/wont do the job their rider wants them to do.

I think it also depends on the individual rider and horses temp of how long you give them and how long/how much money you have to waste/spend!
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There's only so much schooling/competing and getting eliminated/disheartened before you think maybe this horse doesnt want to XC/SJ/Dressage!! And I think this happens XC with the majority of pure warmbloods (obviously not all)

I personally CAN beat something round to a certain degree but 1) wouldnt want to as it isnt fair on the horse and 2) I just dont enjoy that I prefer something to take me into a fence/enjoy its work whether that be on the flat or over a fence. But all peoples tolerances are different
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Your right T-E - it is interesting! I also agree about some of the modern courses punishing the bolder horses. I remember watching Badminton as a kid and being totally in awe of those wonderful huge jumping horses. I really hope we don't 'kill off' those type of horses in pursuit of technical excellence - they were just awesome to watch.
 
Every horse is so different aren't they? Fiddler and Hattie and of course Ice and Jemima. Don't worry - I'm not even thinking about giving up with her
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I've watched your progress with Hats with interest because I think in many ways they are similar but also because I think we probably have the same sort of methodology when it comes to their education. Also - if I copy what you have been doing perhaps I'll win an intro next season - now that would make my year!!
 
H-J it was your post that prompted me - but only because I wanted to explore what other people thought of producing horses, to what timescale and why. With a young horse myself I am always interested in others views in how they brought horses on, what problems or pitfalls they faced and how they coped with the ups and downs. Think your'll agree there are some really good points of view on here. I think what has come across the most is that every single horse is different and we have to tailor our approach to each of them and try and be perceptive enough to know what we need to be doing to get the best out of them and by that I don't mean getting them to 4* within 3 years, it might be jumping double clears at BN or being placed at Intro - whatever the best is for that owner. Let's face it - it is our hopes and dreams that we are trying to fulfil here - not the horses.
 
I think the lady I have lessons from is a classic in this respect - she has just had an amazing result at 4* but it has been a long process since the horse has been 3 years old. She never thought she would ever be doing this well. But she says this result has made her more hungry than ever so it will be interesting to see if she gets another horse and it is fast tracked more as all the others have been taken really slowly.

I think this is why I admire WFP as he seems to really take his time to educate his young horses and then they are at the same level for a fair time before being moved up.
 
lec - do I remember that it is Jo May that you have lessons with? She used to teach my OH at pony club once upon a time, and no one local to her has a bad word to say about her. Where are you based then?
 
Its taken Badger and I a while to get it together, mainly due to the fact that I don't do anywhere near enough with him on the lessons/schooling front!
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His main job is being a hunter, which he is fab at. I mainly show jumped him last year and though he was fab some days, I had a couple of falls due to us both lacking a bit of confidence for one reason or another, and it did put me off a bit. After a fab season hunting and a few good rounds TC and XC, we are both much more confident this year and things are going great at the mo.... not convinced we have cracked it yet though.. but i'm happy for the time being!
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He has always enjoyed his work though and never looked like he didn't want to do it - we just weren't very consistent. I think some horses just aren't cut out for the job, and try to make it quite clear!
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