Lee Pearson vs Monty Roberts

[Equi]

Anyone seen lees FB page? He basically wrote a post slating monty and calling him and his methods (and anyone who uses them) abusive.

Kelly marks invited him to come to a session but as far as I know he refused.

 

[cronkmooar]

Whilst I don't think Monty Roberts (or Kelly Marks for that matter) walks on water Lee Pearson is a prat

 

[Equi]

I just felt it was a little unprofessional to post the way he was on his fan page. Personal opinions are all well and good but it was just a blatant slating of monty.

 

[touchstone]

Highly unprofessional. There is a saying that to reject something without knowledge is the highest form of ignorance, if he'd gone to the session and then rejected what they did with good reasoning I'd have more respect for him. Plenty of abusive things go on in some dressage circles too.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

Just had a look at his facebook page in the interests of fairness and its fair to say Lee should have remembered the old saying; Tis better to stay silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

 

[oldie48]

Sadly I think sometimes Lee has a over inflated idea of his importance, which is a great pity as he's achieved a great deal. I heard him interviewed round about the time of London 2012 and he clearly thought he deserved a greater honour from the Queen than he'd got. Clearly very bad form but at the end of the day, he rides horses albeit with a disability he's not found a cure for cancer. He did come across as not very likeable.

 

[bounce]

I can't comment on Lee Pearson as I have not seen the comments but I have seen the link to the research that brought this all about which I do find fascinating.

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-urge-rethink-monty-roberts-horse.html

I notice that it is actually old news as it was 2012 that it was published. Does anyone know if either Monty or Kelly Marks commented on the research at all?

 

[minesadouble]

Sadly I think sometimes Lee has a over inflated idea of his importance, which is a great pity as he's achieved a great deal. I heard him interviewed round about the time of London 2012 and he clearly thought he deserved a greater honour from the Queen than he'd got. Clearly very bad form but at the end of the day, he rides horses albeit with a disability he's not found a cure for cancer. He did come across as not very likeable.

This - with knobs on!

 

[Equi]

I can't comment on Lee Pearson as I have not seen the comments but I have seen the link to the research that brought this all about which I do find fascinating.

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-urge-rethink-monty-roberts-horse.html

I notice that it is actually old news as it was 2012 that it was published. Does anyone know if either Monty or Kelly Marks commented on the research at all?

Not sure on that. Kelly just posted on her own page that she extends an invitation to lee to come and find out for himself.

 

[Orangehorse]

I don't know if either Monty or Kelly responded to that article, but I believe that their methods have been compared to others using heart monitors and measures of stress, and Monty's methods were better or no worse than any other breaking methods.

I was part of a set up team at a Monty demonstration a few years ago and he came and talked to us all, and there was something "controversial" going around with various people slagging him off. He had a good reply to what was being said, and I believe that he and Kelly have the very best interests of the horse in mind and in their hearts at all times. As he said, why would he bother to still be doing clinics and travelling the world in his 70s if it wasn't to try and spread the message to help as many horses as possible.

 

[shadeofshyness]

I saw Kelly Marks had invited him to come and watch a join up. Lee had been posting from his personal Facebook account on the status without accepting the offer. I wonder if he eventually will. Seems a shame not to try to understand it.

He described it as 'frightening them with a rope'. But the pressure/release method is at the core of lots of aspects of riding and training. It doesn't equate to frightening them. Hmm.

 

[Equi]

Surely he lunges his horses. A lot of not all horses need to be chased in some form to make them lunge. Not really much different to a loose pen and flicking a rope that doesn't touch them.

I hope he does accept the invite but something tells me his pride will not let him. He would hate to have to admit being wrong.

 

[Molly'sMama]

I can't comment on Lee Pearson as I have not seen the comments but I have seen the link to the research that brought this all about which I do find fascinating.

http://phys.org/news/2012-07-urge-rethink-monty-roberts-horse.html

I notice that it is actually old news as it was 2012 that it was published. Does anyone know if either Monty or Kelly Marks commented on the research at all?

this research is utter rubbish. how does chasing a horse round with a car equate to a person setting themselves up as dominant and excluding the horse from the herd, as seen in the wild? the horse cannot understand what the car is/is doing but it can appreciate the person in monty's method as being alpha or herd leader.

a perfect example of research lacking reliability or validity-- i would be embarrassed, as a science student, to have come up with that.

 

[Equi]

This is in a post in the fb thread:

After the research was conducted Kelly Marks and Rosie Jones McVey UK based Senior Instructors of Monty Roberts, visited the researchers in Australia. International Society for Equine Science President, Dr Andrew McLean, equitation scientist and manager of the Australian Equine Behavior Centre in Broadford, Victoria, cautioned at the time that Cathrynne Henshall's MSc study was not an "attack" on 'join-up' or any other round-pen training techniques. "It just shows, though, how science can really illuminate the real causes of behaviors when they otherwise might delude us." Kelly and Rosie found out what really happened in the research and learned much from the researcher and Andrew McLean was really illuminated.

The upshot is that two years on, the Monty Roberts' Instructors from America, Canada, England, Ireland, Finland, France, Germany, Poland, Sweden, Switzerland, and Scotland gathered in California this summer, to learn from Monty Roberts, Dr. Andrew McLean (Australia), Drs. William Miller and Terri Moyers (US) Katie Cunningham (Guatemala) Leigh Wills (New Zealand) and Rosie Jones (England) in three days of demonstrations, dinners and discussions about the future of horsemanship.

The fact that there is now a collaboration between the researchers and Monty Roberts, speaks volumes for both sides.

 

[LittleBlackMule]

Mr. Pearson, of all people, should be able to understand that just because someone or something is different from what we are used to, doesn't automatically make them worthy of criticism. Double standards, much?

 

[Amicus]

This is his comment for those not on FB:
"I think my clients will tell you I've been saying this for years!!! Let's frighten them with a rope until they submit, package the idea and make millions!!" With a link to a summary of a study on join up.
http://phys.org/news/2012-07-urge-rethink-monty-roberts-horse.html#jCp

Personally I don't think the comments that bad, Monty Roberts although I'm sure he helps loads of people and horses in my opinion his demo's require the horses to be quite stressed so at least to begin with behave dramatically enough to entertain an audience. I dislike the pretense that some 'natural horsemanship' are so much kinder than traditional horsemanship and the less mysticism in horse training the better in my opinion.

 

[Equi]

I don't break horses but I do join up and it works but lee just was very childish in his comments and very narrow minded. He wouldn't even think about going and getting proved wrong.

Also confused by how he can support the Spanish stables who make horses do tricks with whips etc (and they can't say they don't use whips cause I have pictures of them using whips and one horse has a cut and blood in the flanks)

 

[Amicus]

this research is utter rubbish. how does chasing a horse round with a car equate to a person setting themselves up as dominant and excluding the horse from the herd, as seen in the wild? the horse cannot understand what the car is/is doing but it can appreciate the person in monty's method as being alpha or herd leader.

a perfect example of research lacking reliability or validity-- i would be embarrassed, as a science student, to have come up with that.

I think in the study they found that the horses joined up perfectly well with the cars (with all the good signs licking and chewing head lowering ear tilting in and following the car at the end etc) showing either that the horse had either accepted the car as the 'herd leader' or that what appears to be a horse accepting a person as a herd leader is just a horse learning how to escape the pressure of being chased/excluded.

 

[Equi]

I think in the study they found that the horses joined up perfectly well with the cars (with all the good signs licking and chewing head lowering ear tilting in and following the car at the end etc) showing either that the horse had either accepted the car as the 'herd leader' or that what appears to be a horse accepting a person as a herd leader is just a horse learning how to escape the pressure of being chased/excluded.

Is that not essentially what chasing does? The horse learns how to avoid being chased but then it doesn't need to be chased any more.

 

[Amicus]

Is that not essentially what chasing does? The horse learns how to avoid being chased but then it doesn't need to be chased any more.

Yes I agree completely, I was just commenting on Molly'sMama suggestion that the research using cars was pointless "the horse cannot understand what the car is/is doing but it can appreciate the person in monty's method as being alpha or herd leader. " which as far as I can see completely missed the point of the research.

 

[Equi]

Oh I see

 

[fburton]

this research is utter rubbish. how does chasing a horse round with a car equate to a person setting themselves up as dominant and excluding the horse from the herd, as seen in the wild? the horse cannot understand what the car is/is doing but it can appreciate the person in monty's method as being alpha or herd leader.

That's assuming the concept of a human as "alpha or herd leader" (are they even the same thing??) is a valid one in the first place. That is far from clear, in my view.

a perfect example of research lacking reliability or validity-- i would be embarrassed, as a science student, to have come up with that.

As a practicing scientist, I disagree. The experiment provided evidence that the same sort of behaviours (following) can be trained in a purely operant way using a device that lacks a great deal of body language that horses have and that we seek to emulate. Whether the end results are the same is open to question and further experiment, of course. That doesn't make the experiment "rubbish" though.

I would be most interested to hear what Andrew MacLean has to say about Join Up now he's had a chance to see it (and have it explained) at close hand by one of the best practitioners of the technique.

 

[lula]

Just had a look at his facebook page in the interests of fairness and its fair to say Lee should have remembered the old saying; Tis better to stay silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.

Loving this quote.

having read Mr Pearson's Fb page myself too, i completely agree. He'd have done better to have kept his rather large gob quiet and not commented on the post any further.

 

[Tapir]

Whilst I don't think Monty Roberts (or Kelly Marks for that matter) walks on water Lee Pearson is a prat

what she said

 

[MagicMelon]

Stupid of Lee to do that so publicly. Why is he commenting on it anyway? I have no issues with anything I've seen of Monty Roberts and have had plenty of success with his basic "join up" method. Just dont get me started on the money making, abusive scam of parelli... Lee can slag that off to his hearts content!

 

[fburton]

It does seem a curiously counterproductive and own-goalish sort of thing to say.

 

[Ladyinred]

I have no time for either Lee Pearson or Monty Roberts and tend towards agreeing with Lee P's comment. BUT I don't think FB is the place to air that sort of opinion.

Sometimes it is more anti-social media than social.

 

[talkinghorse]

Lee Pearson CBE, like many other people, assumed that if MSc students do research with toy–cars and horses, their research is valid. Instead of pointing out what invalidated the research, a lot of people attacked Mr Pearson for what he said. That isn't really playing fair on his own Facebook page.

The world is not divided into two parts: those who pretend to be lions and chase away horses, and those who tie them to a post and torment them until half of them die. I have seen more natural horsemanship that I find intolerable, than classical equestrian training, which I can use and like. So where are the natural and traditional lines to be drawn?

After the toy–car research was published — two years ago — two of Monty Roberts senior instructors were invited to visit and see the researchers at work. Their conclusion, the researchers did, what is evident from the research report, they trained a horse to focus on a toy-car by using pressure and release. While there, the two senior instructors, Kelly Marks and Rosie Jones–McVey also showed the researchers what they actually did in a Join–Up.

The result is that less than two years on, Dr Andrew McLean, equitation scientist and manager of the Australian Equine Behaviour Centre in Broadford, Victoria was teaching on Monty Roberts Senior Instructors' annual Continuing Professional Development course.

As Kelly Marks said in response to the comments on FB, "I can't be cross [with Lee Pearson CBE] — after all my now good friend, Dr Andrew McLean, confessed to believing the same thing (even wrote it in books!) until I did a Join–Up with one of his horses at his beautiful property in Australia, and he saw how the communication actually worked. So please someone ask Lee to join us one evening (and bring a friend) so we can show him what really happens!"

I really hope Lee Pearson will allow Monty Roberts and Kelly Marks, to put his mind at rest about this one tool of 'natural' horsemanship.

If anyone wants a full explanation of how the research differed from Join–Up, I can post it here, but it is quite detailed.

 

[fburton]

If anyone wants a full explanation of how the research differed from Join–Up, I can post it here, but it is quite detailed.

Yes, please - the more detailed the better!

 

[talkinghorse]

For you Francis — I've done it in German for Ulrike Thiel so I suppose I can do it in English for you ;-)

First flaw in the research: the horse dictates the Join–Up® responses. The researcher wasn't trained to do Join–Up®, so started off completely wrongly.

In interview the University of Sydney says: "As currently practised the technique relies on the trainer using movement and noise to drive the horse around the perimeter of the pen. The trainer gradually reduces their aggressive movements, after which the horse will eventually slow down and approach them.

"The researchers used remote control cars to mimic the technique and to eliminate the assumed essential role of the humans speaking the language of the horse."

First action in Join–Up®: the horse is lead into the pen to investigate all parts of it, so nothing external can disturb the 'conversation'. When he is released, he is released in a particular point where he has two clear choices: stay with this person I've just met, or walk to the gate. The horse dictates the very first move: if he stays with the handler, he is not sent away, he is worked with quite differently. If he chooses to move away, he is sent away strongly. How strongly depends on his response. The researcher did not do the two crucial activities prior to any "movement and noise" — in fact with a toy car, I'm not sure how you would. One essential is that you keep your eye on the horse's eye!

What happens next, is dictated by the horse: some will move off quite strongly, so the handler drops their energy and if the horse does not respond, turns the horse, possibly several times, depending on the horse. How the handler behaves, is in response entirely to signals from the horse: locking the ear on; making the circle smaller; lowering the head and licking.

The handler can encourage these: if the horse is too fast, the handler moves his eye along the horse's body to the tail; if the horse does not lower his head, the handler can use a lifted arm to signal him to lower his nose to the ground; finally the handler allows the horse to approach him and ask him to follow, when Join–Up® is completed.

The researchers replicated none of this. Instead, the researchers "used remote control cars to mimic the technique and to eliminate the assumed essential role of the humans speaking the language of the horse.

"We 'rewarded' the horses for stopping and turning towards the car with a period of 'safety', when the car didn't chase them as long as they kept facing it. We trained some horses to actually walk up to and touch the car," said Henshall.

"Given that we could train horses to produce similar, though not identical responses to those seen in round pen training, but in reaction to non-human stimuli undermines the claim that the human's ability to mimic horse behaviour is an essential component of the technique."

"The researchers believe that the training outcomes were achieved as a result of 'pressure-release' and not the ability of the trainer, or a remote control car, to mimic horse behavior."

That is the only time the researchers were correct: they used pressure and release and not Join–Up®. They and their toy car did not and could not replicate the actions of Join–Up®, they used a different language to communicate with the horse.

At least the end result has been a most productive one now that the researchers, Monty Roberts and his instructors are all learning much more by working in collaboration two years on.

Monty has three statements that he constantly makes and lives by: Violence is never the answer; I want to leave the world a better place for horses and people too, and I don't want my students to be as good as me, I want them to be better. Like every good teacher, he tells us constantly what others have taught him, this year it's what he learned from these Australian researchers.