Leg yield

[Akkalia1]

I know...one of the most basic of sideways movements and I'm confused. This doesn't bode well for my hope to achieve great dressagey things!

My mare is starting to go well again after a major blip and we're schooling far more successfully. I have two issues with leg yield...

1/ If I am on the left rein and leg yielding from the 3/4 line over to the side of the arena I thought I was applying left leg and weighting my left seat bone. Slight left bend at poll but basically straight body. But I now read conflicting methods. Some say yes, this is correct, more commonly, they say weight the right seat bone. In my head I'm thinking when I ask for left bend normally on a circle or to turn to the left I would weight my left seat bone so that's why I originally thought left seat aid in leg yield to the left would be correct. But I would say more commonly I'm reading I want to weight the opposite seat bone? Help explain!

2/ My dad videoed us leg yielding last night as I'm often on my own and can't see what we look like. So I thought we looked ok generally, one of our issues has been over bending and falling out through the outside shoulder but we were basically straight with a touch of inside flexion. But although we went sideways I wouldn't say her legs were crossing. So does this mean we're not truly leg yielding? How do I work towards achieving leg cross? Half halts? Riding squares to get her to take more weight in outside hind? Working on turn on forehand maybe?

 

[milliepops]

I try and sit evenly in the saddle for leg yielding or ever so slightly to the direction of travel. With other lateral work (e.g. half pass) then it's better to sit towards the direction of travel (though you will see people doing the opposite, it ends up looking awkward). if you sit to the other side then you end up almost shoving the horses sideways instead of inviting it, if that makes sense? I think it's also more difficult to keep your upper body in balance then.

I think "crossing" develops with suppleness. To begin with if you have the whole horse moving as one rather than the shoulder falling out etc, then that's a good start. Crossing tends to only be really visible when you are able to increase the angle of the LY as the horse's ability and understanding develops. At the start it is easier to be more forward than sideways, while teaching the horse what the basic movement is about. As it becomes more established, you can half halt a little and add more sideways and a bit less forward motion, and then you will start to notice the legs crossing.
My prelim level horse is able to LY but shows little or no crossing, he does understand to move to my outside hand and not kink through his body etc. My advanced horse shows a great deal of crossing as she is so much better balanced, more supple and more sensitive to my aids.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Whatever rein your on you put a bit more weight on that seatbone so left rein left seatbone, try it in walk first on a three quarter line.

So turn down 3/4 line make sure horse is straight then half halt left leg behind girth ask for a few steps first of all then walk straight for a few, the horse finds it easier to balance in the beginning then as you progress aim for more sideways steps, the back legs should cross but a young green horse won't manage more than a few at a time.

 

[oldie48]

I sometimes struggle to get my aids right in lateral work and find doing it first in walk helps me to sort myself out a bit, however, Rose can lose impulsion and stop up so it can feel like quite hard work. I find it helps to turn down the Q line or C line. look at the marker you are heading for and turn the shoulders so you are effectively putting the horse on the diagonal line, keep a small amount of flexion to the inside but make sure you keep the outside rein, put your inside leg back to move the qs over and back up with a tap of the schooling whip if you need to. a few good steps are better than lots of rubbish ones (note to self!) Most horses are better on one rein than the other so I like to start on the better rein get the feel and then do the other rein.

 

[shortstuff99]

If you are able to control the shoulders then you are able to control the movement. Make sure you are always keeping the shoulders straight then the rest will follow. If you don't think she is crossing enough then ask a little bit more with your inside leg but still keep the shoulders. Also try not to get too hung up on 'sideways' in leg yield as it is a forwards and not a sideways movement.

 

[Akkalia1]

Thank you everybody, this is really helpful.

I try and sit evenly in the saddle for leg yielding or ever so slightly to the direction of travel. With other lateral work (e.g. half pass) then it's better to sit towards the direction of travel (though you will see people doing the opposite, it ends up looking awkward). if you sit to the other side then you end up almost shoving the horses sideways instead of inviting it, if that makes sense? I think it's also more difficult to keep your upper body in balance then.

So for leg yield with slight flexion away from direction of travel I want to think of more inviting her to step over hence weight on seat bone towards direction of travel. But for half pass (when and if we get there!) with bend/flexion towards the direction of travel I want to think more of pushing her sideways hence weight on seat bone away from direction of travel? This is going to be a really stupid question I guess, I struggle to get my head round all this... So in half pass to the left I would want to create left bend with my left leg on girth but create the sideways movement with my right leg behind girth and weight into right seat bone? But then in a simple left bend on a circle I would have my left leg on slightly at girth and weight slightly in left seat bone and stirrup. So does it not confuse the horse if in half pass I'm asking for left bend but my weight is in the right seat bone? Oooooh I get so confused, I'm not sure I'm going to be good at this Edited to say I think I just got that all wrong after re-reading arghhhhhhh! With half pass left I also want to weight my left seat bone so with all lateral movement you want to invite the horse sideways not push with seat bone?

I definitely find it easier to get my aids right at walk. We've not established sitting trot yet really and I find it difficult in trot to be asking for her to move over when I'm rising so I have to change to the wrong diagonal just after turning down the 3/4 line so I can ask for her to move over when I'm in the sitting phase.

I think maybe we are on the right track then as she is moving nicely forwards through the movement for the most part now, she initially would drop off the aids and lack impulsion whereas it's a more smooth movement now.

She certainly needs to develop more suppleness and through-ness although we are much better than we were.

 

[milliepops]

Thank you everybody, this is really helpful.



So for leg yield with slight flexion away from direction of travel I want to think of more inviting her to step over hence weight on seat bone towards direction of travel. But for half pass (when and if we get there!) with bend/flexion towards the direction of travel I want to think more of pushing her sideways hence weight on seat bone away from direction of travel? This is going to be a really stupid question I guess, I struggle to get my head round all this... So in half pass to the left I would want to create left bend with my left leg on girth but create the sideways movement with my right leg behind girth and weight into right seat bone? But then in a simple left bend on a circle I would have my left leg on slightly at girth and weight slightly in left seat bone and stirrup. So does it not confuse the horse if in half pass I'm asking for left bend but my weight is in the right seat bone? Oooooh I get so confused, I'm not sure I'm going to be good at this

nope for me, half pass you always sit in the direction of travel.
So half pass left, you have left bend created from your left leg into your right rein, left rein adding a little left flexion, right leg adding the sideways aid, weight towards left seatbone.

I really do find it easiest to sit equally on both seatbones in the LY,I find it stops me contorting myself, going crooked or trying too hard though like a PP mentioned you need to make your turn as normal by weighting your inside seatbone.

 

[Akkalia1]

nope for me, half pass you always sit in the direction of travel.
So half pass left, you have left bend created from your left leg into your right rein, left rein adding a little left flexion, right leg adding the sideways aid, weight towards left seatbone.

I really do find it easiest to sit equally on both seatbones in the LY,I find it stops me contorting myself, going crooked or trying too hard though like a PP mentioned you need to make your turn as normal by weighting your inside seatbone.

After re-reading I realised this is what you meant and this actually makes far more sense to me now! Thank you.

 

[be positive]

nope for me, half pass you always sit in the direction of travel.
So half pass left, you have left bend created from your left leg into your right rein, left rein adding a little left flexion, right leg adding the sideways aid, weight towards left seatbone.

I really do find it easiest to sit equally on both seatbones in the LY,I find it stops me contorting myself, going crooked or trying too hard though like a PP mentioned you need to make your turn as normal by weighting your inside seatbone.

I do a lot of LY in rising trot so the seatbone will have no real influence but you do see a lot of people collapsing one way or another in an effort to push the horse from the seat which usually has the opposite effect by causing the horse to bend too much and drop through the shoulder, the horse may be crossing behind but to no real benefit in it's training.
As for the crossing try not to ask for too much as that usually ends up with loss of the straightness, which is what you are aiming for, as long as the inside hind is travelling towards the direction of movement, towards the outside front landing point is a good aim, then the exercise will be beneficial, as already said better a few good clear steps than a lot of poor ones.

 

[oldie48]

With half pass my trainer gets me to do travers down the long side ensuring that Rose is looking in the direction of travel with just a little inside flexion. I find this gives me a better feel of the movement because basically half pass is then just the same but on a diagonal line, so again I look at the marker and turn Rose's shoulders but it's my outside leg that puts qs over. I try not to think too much about seat bones because I think it over complicates things and I am a great fan of KISS! Hope this makes sense!

 

[Akkalia1]

I do a lot of LY in rising trot so the seatbone will have no real influence but you do see a lot of people collapsing one way or another in an effort to push the horse from the seat which usually has the opposite effect by causing the horse to bend too much and drop through the shoulder, the horse may be crossing behind but to no real benefit in it's training.
As for the crossing try not to ask for too much as that usually ends up with loss of the straightness, which is what you are aiming for, as long as the inside hind is travelling towards the direction of movement, towards the outside front landing point is a good aim, then the exercise will be beneficial, as already said better a few good clear steps than a lot of poor ones.

I think this is exactly what was happening, I was definitely collapsing and the poor horse ended up like a banana and drifting through her shoulder. At least we have improved from that!!

Oldie - you're right I think I was getting too hung up on seat bones! I find it all very difficult, wish I was a natural at this. Just had to google travers/renvers, I always forget what they are.

 

[Littlebear]

Sorry i haven't read the replies but think of bringing your hip back, not bending your knee to bring your leg back, that should sort your seat bones x

 

[still standing]

For leg yield, my previous trainer explained if you want to move the horse right, you put slightly more weight on your right seatbone because the horse is then inclined to move 'under' that side, to even up your weight/pressure, and you get the sideways movement more easily in that direction. Watch you don't collapse your left hip though.

 

[oldie48]

I think this is exactly what was happening, I was definitely collapsing and the poor horse ended up like a banana and drifting through her shoulder. At least we have improved from that!!

Oldie - you're right I think I was getting too hung up on seat bones! I find it all very difficult, wish I was a natural at this. Just had to google travers/renvers, I always forget what they are.

I am most definitely not a natural which is why I like a trainer who keeps things very simple and can identify the main thing that will make a difference, rather than throwing a load of instructions at me. Basically Rose is not sufficiently reactive to my leg, so we do a few easy exercises initially to get her reaction a bit sharper and I can use a schooling whip to tap her up if required. Just making sure we are using the corners properly really helps or travers or renvers on the long side I find really helpful.

 

[Red-1]

For leg yield I think of keeping the horse straight. To bend towards the direction of movement is a lot more difficult, so won't happen (as a rule) unless you make efforts to have it actually happen. The horse is much more likely to bend too much away from the movement, and dump the shoulder.

If I think of riding it straight, the horse will generally naturally put the bend in for me, but by not initially asking for the bend I run less chance of having too much bend and a dumped shoulder.

Initially I make sure that I can do a turn on fore and haunches, so I know I can independently move either. I start straight. I ask for some steps. If the horse looks as if he will dump the shoulder, I straighten up and maybe even do a step the opposite direction.

If the horse starts to anticipate I will use the centre line so I *could* be going either way. If a horse is really anticipating I will yield away from the wall, from the inner track.

Once theorise has got the idea, then I will start to actually ask for the inside bend as he will be supple enough to stay on the designated bend without dumping the shoulder.

Leg yield on the straight line (outer track) is not to be dismissed either, as in like a shoulder fore or quarters in, but with no designated bend (until the horse is supple enough to give one). I would avoid leg yield on the circle until the horse is supple and schooled enough not to dump the shoulder.

When training big ol' Irish lumps (all over 17hh and strong beasts), I would sometimes teach by doing a step forwards then asking sideways and if they over ruled me and plowed on, would stop, move one end over, move the other end over, continue, if they plow through again, stop, move one end, then the other. Then, they could almost stop (half halt) and I could correct whichever end was astray, before continuing. That only works when you do the stopping in a nice and explanatory manner, not like a pulling contest. It simply means that the horse does not learn to plow through the shoulder/bridle/leg as it is instantly stopped and the correct response explained.

 

[Skib]

I learned to ride as an adult. Almost every RI seems to ask a new student to leg yield the RS horse, more for the benefit of the horse, I think, than for the student. This is basic beginner leg yield compared with the previous post.
In walk and sitting trot it is straight forward. Timing of the leg aid is what matters. Keep the horse's body straight and cue the inside hind leg across as it comes off the ground.

I was first taught to leg yield in a more complicated way and in rising trot by a formidable teacher on a wide track moving from side to side of the track and changing my trotting diagonal for each change of direction. My elderly brain has never been able to recall the detail and when I have asked RIs in a school they have expressed bewilderment.

But if one is doing similar leg yield in the school in rising trot, I calculate that one would need to cue the inside hind leg as one rises in the trot. This has always seemed counter intuitive to me.

A couple of times I have arrived at an RS lesson and been asked to leg yield the horse because a member of staff who had had the previous lesson has failed. If I can feel when to cue the hind leg (my seat bone that side dips) there is no problem.

 

[milliepops]

Funny I was just thinking of that earlier. If in rising trot I always change my diagonal for LY or HP as it helps to make you naturally give the cue at the right time.

 

[Mule]

I learned to ride as an adult. Almost every RI seems to ask a new student to leg yield the RS horse, more for the benefit of the horse, I think, than for the student. This is basic beginner leg yield compared with the previous post.
In walk and sitting trot it is straight forward. Timing of the leg aid is what matters. Keep the horse's body straight and cue the inside hind leg across as it comes off the ground.

I was first taught to leg yield in a more complicated way and in rising trot by a formidable teacher on a wide track moving from side to side of the track and changing my trotting diagonal for each change of direction. My elderly brain has never been able to recall the detail and when I have asked RIs in a school they have expressed bewilderment.

But if one is doing similar leg yield in the school in rising trot, I calculate that one would need to cue the inside hind leg as one rises in the trot. This has always seemed counter intuitive to me.

A couple of times I have arrived at an RS lesson and been asked to leg yield the horse because a member of staff who had had the previous lesson has failed. If I can feel when to cue the hind leg (my seat bone that side dips) there is no problem.

I find the leg yield so much easier to do in the sitting trot. Rising at the same time as going sideways is too much for my brain?

 

[be positive]

I find the leg yield so much easier to do in the sitting trot. Rising at the same time as going sideways is too much for my brain?

Much easier for the rider but not for a young or weak horse that may not be ready for the rider to sit yet can benefit from learning basic lateral work, sitting can also shut down the trot if the rider is not well balanced, which is not going to help the horse work through its length.

 

[Mule]

Much easier for the rider but not for a young or weak horse that may not be ready for the rider to sit yet can benefit from learning basic lateral work, sitting can also shut down the trot if the rider is not well balanced, which is not going to help the horse work through its length.

Good point.

 

[Akkalia1]

Thanks so much for everyones help! Changing the diagonal to do leg yield was a bit of an eye opener for me. I didn't;t realise I was applying the aid at the wrong time, so although she was responding it felt so much smoother and easier when I started applying the aid as the inside hind was coming off the ground. I think I need to do some work on turn on the forehand and haunches, I haven't really tried that.

I watched the video again in slow motion and her inside hind does seem to be landing where her outside fore was or even a little further over so that's good