Legal advice please

What did the original advert say ? In a private sale then you are reliant upon it being as described.

In the past when buying I have included in the bill of sale the purpose for which I am buying the horse and included that they are not aware of any physical or behavioural issues (other than described in this bill or the original advert) that will impact on this use.

It is not foolproof as you would still have to go to court but it does at least mean that if you subsequently find out they have deliberately misled you then you do have something to fallback on in court
 
Exasperated said:
So the previous vet had sufficient suspicion to send the sample for genetic testing?
Clarifying, because that vet would have also scanned the horse’s microchip and x referenced with passport barcode - if that wasn’t 100% certain, your friend would be as well to re confirm the PSSM 1 test before taking any legal action.
By the bye, this horse probably is a fairly pronounced and high maintenance case, it often takes vets a long time and umpteen other tests to rule out other possible causes before focusing on PSSM. Hope she gets things resolved.
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Thank you.
 
Tiddlypom said:
OP has already stated that there is no written proof that the horse was declared to have no medical issues.

So nothing to that effect either in the advert or the receipt?

Was it a verbal assurance?
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Yes. Verbal. Long conversation with vendor as explained about another horse with issues that were not disclosed
 
I'm not aware of any legal requirement to disclose specific conditions, but something that affects a horse's performance would surely be classed as a concealment if not disclosed, particularly when asked. Whether you count as an impartial witness is up to a judge, though. This is definitely a question for specialists in equine law, OP. As suggested, use the insurance/membership of BHS (does Harry Hall also offer legal advice?) to ask for advice. The lack of vetting may or may not count against, but as there's no requirement to vet any horse purchased (aside from for insurance purposes of high value horses), I would think it's irrelevant, particularly as PSSM1 wouldn't show up in the basic 2 stage and may not show in a 5 stage if the horse is having a good run. My cob is amazing when symptom free, which he was all this summer. We're back to sluggish, now that the grass is growing.
 
Mollysmum said:
Just purchaser and me.
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So you were a witness to the conversation.

I think you have a stronger case than many on here seem to think. You have proof that the seller knew of it, and if I were a judge, on balance of probabilities I would assume that the seller had not disclosed it when asked about medical issues...unless, say, the horse was sold at bargain basement price rather than at market value for a horse of the type without any issues. Do you have a copy of the advert, and what did it say?

HOWEVER I would get some actual advice, rather than from random people on a forum. If it needs to be free: perhaps a helpline, or any local organisations or charities who may advise, or help draft letters/small claims forms? Citizens advice?

If you go to small claims, and win, remember you still have to try to get the money out of the seller. But starting the legal process, including initial letters stating intent of legal action, might have a result.
 
Mollysmum said:
ut something that affects a horse's performance would surely be classed as a concealment if not disclosed, particularly when asked. Whether you count as an impartial witness is up to a judge, though. This is definitely a question for specialists in equine law, OP. As suggested, use the insurance/membership of BHS (does Harry Hall also offer legal advice?) to ask for advice. The lack of vetting may or may not count against, but as there's no requirement to vet any horse purchased (aside from for insurance purposes of high value horses), I would think it's irrelevant, particularly as PSSM1 wouldn't show up in the basic 2 stage and may not show in a 5 stage if the horse is having a good run. My cob is amazing when symptom free, which he was all this summer. We're back to sluggish, now that the grass is growing.
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are you related to the purchaser in any way other than as a friend? business interests? extended family?

I think she is going to have a very hard time proving that she asked the question which is going to be the main issue any judge will look at. If the horse fits the description and the description does not claim "fit and well" or some variation thereof then it will be up to your friend to prove she asked the question and that the seller didnt disclose when asked

Once you can prove she asked the question and that she didnt disclose then you have all the evidence needed that she lied.

If you are a credible unrelated witness to the statement then you are on a much better footing.


Its very much buyer beware with buying from a private seller and best to get everything in writing
 
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conniegirl said:
are you related to the purchaser in any way other than as a friend? business interests? extended family?

I think she is going to have a very hard time proving that she asked the question which is going to be the main issue any judge will look at. If the horse fits the description and the description does not claim "fit and well" or some variation thereof then it will be up to your friend to prove she asked the question and that the seller didnt disclose when asked

Once you can prove she asked the question and that she didnt disclose then you have all the evidence needed that she lied.

If you are a credible unrelated witness to the statement then you are on a much better footing.


Its very much buyer beware with buying from a private seller and
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I used to be in Employment tribunals all the time and employers used current employees of theirs to give evidence against the dismissed person all the time. Hardly independent evidence when your job may depend on it, you'd think, but the tribunal panel had no problem accepting it as good witness evidence, as a rule! ETA a witness in the form of a friend who came with you is still better than no witness at all.

I would say it is a normal question to ask a seller when viewing a horse - ie whether there are any medical or behavioural issues you should be aware of, so equally it might be the seller who would have a hard time arguing that the buyer didn't bother to ask any questions about health/behaviour.
 
teacups said:
I would say it is a normal question to ask a seller when viewing a horse - ie whether there are any medical or behavioural issues you should be aware of, so equally it might be the seller who would have a hard time arguing that the buyer didn't bother to ask any questions about health/behaviour.
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well they didnt get a vetting so you could argue pattern of behavior and that if they were that worried about it they should have had a vetting/asked for access to vet records.
 
In terms of value - was the horse impacted by their pssm at time of sale (were they sound and moving freely incl under saddle)? Have issues arisen in the current home or is the issue that the pssm exists at all? Given it was diagnosed in the home prior to the one you bought the horse from, did the horse compete successfully in the intermediate home?
 
But, blitznbobs, would you be convincing? Yes, people in court can lie, but it's not easy to lie and look like you're telling the truth. I have this conversation with my partner all the time when I'm boring him with yet another court case I saw online. (Or the tele.)
 
Lois Lame said:
But, blitznbobs, would you be convincing? Yes, people in court can lie, but it's not easy to lie and look like you're telling the truth. I have this conversation with my partner all the time when I'm boring him with yet another court case I saw online. (Or the tele.)
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Oh it is … and I work in the courts - people tell whoppers all the time and get away with it… and people do really stupid things all the time too …

The research on lying is fascinating and very few people can spot a lie on a statistically significant basis even if they are trained to do so.

The average human lies daily in to the double digits and the more intelligent you are the more you lie… not necessarily significant stuff but lying is a necessary human trait
 
Is there any written response from the seller after your friend contacted to return the horse. Anything at all that implies she told your friend she "didn't know" of any medical conditions. A surprised reaction to "learning" about the PSSM, for example ... when you now have evidence she definitely did not about it. Court is balance of probability; in the end, it's how buyer + seller + witness all come across and which story matches the evidence best. In ANY case, she concealed a performance-limiting condition.
 
MissTyc said:
Is there any written response from the seller after your friend contacted to return the horse. Anything at all that implies she told your friend she "didn't know" of any medical conditions. A surprised reaction to "learning" about the PSSM, for example ... when you now have evidence she definitely did not about it. Court is balance of probability; in the end, it's how buyer + seller + witness all come across and which story matches the evidence best. In ANY case, she concealed a performance-limiting condition.
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no she didn't conceal it. She is in court, she has her story well rehearsed in her mind, she explains to the judge that she did include it in the very long discussion. It is possible the buyer didn't remember perhaps or indeed understand the condition but it was certainly mentioned. She was very surprised that the buyer didn't get a vetting, although the opportunity was offered, nor did they ask for previous vet records which is very much the normal practice when buying a horse to save oneself the agonies of buying a medically problematical horse. That does suggest that perhaps they were not that concerned about the horse's medical situation and were quite happy after their own viewing of the horse to decide it was fit for their purposes and to purchase it

You may have the evidence from the earlier owner but the vendor is not saying they didn't know, they are saying they did know and told the purchaser but perhaps the message either didn't get through or was misunderstood.

You are the judge who knows nothing about horses. You have 2 versions of events. You consider the evidence that not only was the condition mentioned but they were also offered the chance of vetting and they didn't take that up nor ask for vet records. Surely a prudent buyer would have done. The purchaser doesn't seem to have taken much care about the medical state of the horse and later found something they missed and now wants to return it. They should perhaps have paid a vet to check it out at the time (the judge doesn't know if PSSM1 would be done thro a vet and therefore on the records)

Lying well is easy. You just make sure you have all the facts and are well prepared to be questioned about your story..

Just a different view. .
 
paddy555 said:
no she didn't conceal it. She is in court, she has her story well rehearsed in her mind, she explains to the judge that she did include it in the very long discussion. It is possible the buyer didn't remember perhaps or indeed understand the condition but it was certainly mentioned. She was very surprised that the buyer didn't get a vetting, although the opportunity was offered, nor did they ask for previous vet records which is very much the normal practice when buying a horse to save oneself the agonies of buying a medically problematical horse. That does suggest that perhaps they were not that concerned about the horse's medical situation and were quite happy after their own viewing of the horse to decide it was fit for their purposes and to purchase it

You may have the evidence from the earlier owner but the vendor is not saying they didn't know, they are saying they did know and told the purchaser but perhaps the message either didn't get through or was misunderstood.

You are the judge who knows nothing about horses. You have 2 versions of events. You consider the evidence that not only was the condition mentioned but they were also offered the chance of vetting and they didn't take that up nor ask for vet records. Surely a prudent buyer would have done. The purchaser doesn't seem to have taken much care about the medical state of the horse and later found something they missed and now wants to return it. They should perhaps have paid a vet to check it out at the time (the judge doesn't know if PSSM1 would be done thro a vet and therefore on the records)

Lying well is easy. You just make sure you have all the facts and are well prepared to be questioned about your story..

Just a different view. .
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I think this quite likely.
OP’s friend’s communications with previous owner / evidence and back up from OP as witness, will need to be very clear.
 
blitznbobs said:
Oh it is … and I work in the courts - people tell whoppers all the time and get away with it… and people do really stupid things all the time too …

The research on lying is fascinating and very few people can spot a lie on a statistically significant basis even if they are trained to do so.

The average human lies daily in to the double digits and the more intelligent you are the more you lie… not necessarily significant stuff but lying is a necessary human trait
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That's quite fascinating because I know a woman who is very intelligent and she admits she lies a lot. To anyone. Her daughter, husband, me (I have no doubt) anyone at all. I had no idea at all that 'the more intelligent you are the more you lie' but it's true in her case I think.
 
Lois Lame said:
That's quite fascinating because I know a woman who is very intelligent and she admits she lies a lot. To anyone. Her daughter, husband, me (I have no doubt) anyone at all. I had no idea at all that 'the more intelligent you are the more you lie' but it's true in her case I think.
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I must be fik then, I’m hopeless at lying and hate doing it.
 
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