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trotter259

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I have recently bought a new horse. When I bought him home he had a very sore back, thought to be from a very badly fitting saddle that the old owner was riding him in.

I have recently got into contact with his first owner and it's not good news.

My horse had an operation last year to treat osteochondrosis (OCD) and his arthritis. Apparently his old owner, N, knew all about this, but failed to mention it to me, even though I asked about his health history, must have slipped her mind obviously.

This is the email sent to me by his previous owner (the one before N):

Where do I start? I bought him from a guy that had bred him in stoke rivers north Devon a few miles from where I live, he had been weaned at 3 months old, and left in a field totally in the middle of nowhere with not even so much as a sheep to look at, he was riddled in lice and worms and was very very scared of everyone and everything. I did loads of groundwork with him and got him very well handled working with him every day until he was 3 I even clicker trained him to fetch! At the age of 3 I started long reigning and lungeing, without tack, he was brill but as soon as you put a roller or girth on him he would bronk like nothing I have ever seen, I actually work backing and schooling horses and I had never seen one bronk like him!!! I stuck with it for 6 months but realized I was finally out of my depth, the first time ever. I rang a friend of mine that works with eventers at upton Pyne equestrian centre (google it) nr exeter, who took him there for 6 weeks, he was backed lightly and came home for 6 weeks rest and then went back to be brought on further, but it was evident after 12 weeks that there was a problem .

I had his back teeth everything checked but we were aware he wasn't using his back properly so I had the vet do a load of checks he was diagnosed with Ocd I was gutted, so I brought him home and he had 12 months turnout rest to see how he grew it was touch and go of do we pts or put through ops and see how he goes, I opted for the ops, so in march 2009 he had both his stifles operated on to remove as much as we could of the floating fragments and the arthritis in his joints he was at the vets for 5 weeks. He returned home to 12 weeks box rest followed by 6 weeks of leading out he was a head case lol but always kept his absolute gentleman gentle personality in the stable. He was my absolute baby and I couldnt wait to start him off again thinking all would be ok. When I started to bring him into work he was great on the ground brill on the lunge but as soon as you put any weight on him he went into bronk BIG time we worked through that, he threw many peeps off so I looked at my friends for more help I rang Lucy Weigersma ( rated no 3 in uk for 3 day eventing) do a search...... She agreed to have him at her yard for a while to see what they could do with him. He was there for 12 weeks and he came back the same as he went they said he was cold backed and if you could ride him through that he would be fine but very unpredictable.

We tried again and he was great, we jumped him very small jumps and he seemed to enjoy his life just throwing in the odd buck here and there , we just tacked him up for an hour before we mounted, but 3 weeks later it all started again, I had the vet re check him and there was no reason for his brhaviour except....he had learnt he could bronk when he was in pain and it disjointed his rider so why couldn't he do it for fun? He had turned into a dangerous horse, very very unpredictable. My friend took him on at her yard where she teaches, backs and schools and she fell in love with him. I offered him to her for nothing as she seemed to connect with him and they worked very well together but she couldn't afford to keep him as she has 2 of her own already so that is when N bought him I told her all of his history and she was adamant she could cope with him she bought him for 400 on the condition he came back to menif she ever moved him on because it broke my heart and I didn't want him passed around all over the place, she promised, and a month later told me her boyfriends sister had bought him so I knew things wernt right. Anyway, hope I have covered all but if you need to know anything else let me know the vets are willing to tell you all too but please be careful Seamus is a gorgeous gorgeous boy but very very unpredictable and dangerous .. Please keep in touch xx

So, basically I have bought a dangerous horse, with arthritis, who may or may not be able to be ridden for a load of money more than what N paid for, and what she told me she paid for him, which was £2k! I have been royally done over and I can't stop crying. I have no clue what I am going to do. I can't keep a horse that I can't ride, but I don't want to let him go, he's my boy!

Please help, what are my rights? Where do I stand with this?

I had a 2 Stage vetting done before I bought him and it bought nothing up, other than his sore back.
 
Afraid I think it is a case of "caveat emptor" (buyer beware).

If this was a private sale you have far less comeback than if you bought this horse through a dealer.

It doesn't sound as though you had him vetted as his problems should have been picked up - at a minimum the scars from his OCD operation. If you did have him vetted you may have come comeback aganinst the vet.

The original owner sold the horse and can't legally require the purchaser to sell him back to her. Your best chance of rescuing anything from this is to see if the original owner is prepared to buy him back from you.
 
Seems to me the lady you bought him from has lied to you bigtime as 1st owner said she knew about his condition, have a word with 1st owner and see if she would back you in legal case.
 
Have you got any witnesses to when she said he had no medical history? I think this would be your only come back.


Other than that you did buy him knowing he had a sore back.... So she could say that you accepted him in that condition. Did you receive a receipt of sale? Did it say sold as seen?

Did you see him being ridden in his old home?
 
I cant belive this is exactly what happend to me! i know exactly how you are feeling.

I bought my horse Archie last year and the first week i had him at home new something was not right ! Finally almost 10months later he was diganosed with OCD in both stifles and arthritis in his hock. He has had surgery now and is recovering well.

However the legal side of things. I contacted lots of solicitors and they were all unwilling take my case on as he was below 5k. I decided to take it though the small claims court. First of all you need to try and resolve the issue in writing - write to his last owners asking for a full refund or to try and sort something out give them 14days to reply. I can give you a copy of all my letters if you like as i got a friend (solicitor) to type some up for me. IF they refuse or do not reply then write to them telling them you will take them to the small claims court.

Can you get hold of his advert if he was advertised ? This can be used as FALSE ADVERTISING - AND NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.

It all got so stressfull for me and because i had no professional legal back up to go to court (nor the funds to do so - having to pay for vet feesi gave up.. as the other previous owners had good solicitors.

Please give it a go ! you do have rights whether it be a private sale or not! PM if you would like a copy of letters that i have.. Best of Luck ..x
 
pollypock1211 said:
I cant belive this is exactly what happend to me! i know exactly how you are feeling.

I bought my horse Archie last year and the first week i had him at home new something was not right ! Finally almost 10months later he was diganosed with OCD in both stifles and arthritis in his hock. He has had surgery now and is recovering well.

However the legal side of things. I contacted lots of solicitors and they were all unwilling take my case on as he was below 5k. I decided to take it though the small claims court. First of all you need to try and resolve the issue in writing - write to his last owners asking for a full refund or to try and sort something out give them 14days to reply. I can give you a copy of all my letters if you like as i got a friend (solicitor) to type some up for me. IF they refuse or do not reply then write to them telling them you will take them to the small claims court.

Can you get hold of his advert if he was advertised ? This can be used as FALSE ADVERTISING - AND NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.

It all got so stressfull for me and because i had no professional legal back up to go to court (nor the funds to do so - having to pay for vet feesi gave up.. as the other previous owners had good solicitors.

Please give it a go ! you do have rights whether it be a private sale or not! PM if you would like a copy of letters that i have.. Best of Luck ..x
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Agree with this I think the amount you can go to small claims court is maximum £2500 as I would definately say UNFIT FOR PURPOSE and they knew about it. Get the info from the girl or her vets. Also a statement from the girl who had the operation stating that they knew everything.
 
Firstly, sorry to hear this - it's really shitty.

On a practical point of you, have you got any evidence of the fact that the Seller said that there was no medical issues that the horse had had in the past? This could be through the advert, or on a receipt for the horse for example. Although the evidence doesn't need to be written, this is what is really going to be most persuasive to a court. If the Seller just didn't say anything and you didn't ask the right question, this is where buyer beware would come in.

For this amount of money you could take the case through the small claims track of the county court (often referred to by people as the small claims court). The system is designed for people to be able to do the claim themselves without solicitors and the defendant wouldn't normally be able to claim their costs if you lose. Also however remember how draining emotionally it is to go through court and there is no certainty you will win even if you have what you feel to be is strong evidence. Sorry if this sounds stupid but have you been in contact with the seller? I'm guessing from the fact that they sound very dishonest that this might be a no go, but you need to ask them to explain themselves. At the very least the court would want to see that you have made an effort to deal with the matter out of court. Send them a letter if you can't get in contact with them and tell them that they have misrepresented the horse that they sold you and you would never have bought it if you had have known about its conditions and therefore you want your money back (of course, you also need to think about the horse and what his future will be).

Also, should the vetting have picked this up?

Sorry for the waffle. Hope something within it is helpful.
 
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Haha said:
Agree with this I think the amount you can go to small claims court is maximum £2500 as I would definately say UNFIT FOR PURPOSE and they knew about it. Get the info from the girl or her vets. Also a statement from the girl who had the operation stating that they knew everything.
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I only have your side to go on, but let's assume that what you say is correct. It's £5000.00 in the Small Claims Track. The good thing is that if you lose you would almost certainly not be required to pay the other side's costs even though they "win". Equally, they would not be ordered to pay yours if you win, except for the issue fee and possibly the cost of any expert reports you obtained, so if you did use a solicitor, then you would still be liable for the solicitors costs yourself. That's why solicitors won't take your case, as it may be uneconomic for you to use their services. Even if the horse cost over £5k, you can limit your claim to a total of £5k to avoid costs. A claim was successfully made for 6 figures against I think Paul Schockemohle some years ago even where the horse was vetted, as the buyers sucessfully argued they had relied on him rather than the vet as he assured him after the vetting that the vet was "wrong".

The claim is in misrepresentation. It is a difficult and complex area of law. It would be worth your while spending some money with a specialist equine solicitor for a short appointment to try to gauge your prospects of success. If you are on certain benefits or are on a low income you may be entitled to Legal Help for this. If they say you have not got a better than 50% chance of winning, then either take a deep breath and mark it down to experience or decide to take a chance in the Small Claims Track yourself.

As someone else has said, check your household insurance/credit cards/trailer/horsebox insurance/AA/ memeberships for legal expenses insurance. I put my farrier on to this when he had a claim against him after selling his horsebox. He had insurance through his horsebox insurance, was allocated a solicitor and successfully defended the claim. I don't know how old you are, but if you are young, any of the above belonging to your parents may cover you or if you have a husband, the same thing applies.

Judges in the Small Claims Track are used to dealing with non legal people and do their best to help both sides and to make it as non scary as possible. The court staff can help you with filling in the forms, but cannot give you legal advice. The key is to be focused,thorough and organised and do everything on time. It is possible to enter judgment against someone if they miss a legal deadline for doing something, but they often apply to have that set aside, which of course delays things.

Even if you are successful, you have to enforce the judgment, which is often the hardest part. The seller may have no money or assets, or will apply to pay judgment at £2 a week (a £1 is not unheard of!) and then won't pay, so you have to chase and then they move house etc etc. Even if they look as though they have money, they will swear blind that the Range Rover is their son's, the house belongs to the family business etc and you will end up with nothing. But sometimes they do pay up promptly, you may be surprised.

Hope that's some help on the practicalities if not the whole thing.
 
Thanks for all your help.

I did get him vetted, and nothing was shown up, apart from his bad back and the fact that he is pigeon toed at the front. Nothing about his hocks, there are no scars, that I can see. The vet was very thorough so I am really surprised nothing was picked up.

I have a receipt for him, will check it as I don't think it says sold as seen. I stupidly had a clear out of all my emails a couple of weeks back and got rid of any emails that were not important, some being ones from the owner I bought him from! IDIOT!

His first owner, who has given me all this information, is willing to back me if this goes any further, she is disgusted with the girl I bought him from. It makes matters worse that the friend she had with her each time I rode, or had the vetting, is a blooming police officer!!!

I have started drafting her an email to send. I want to make sure it is word perfect and has all the correct facts within it, so that I cover myself from all angles.

I cannot believe someone of 20 years old can be so horrible. I just feel sorry for my poor boy, he is the innocent party in all of this and it sounds like he has had a horrid life, he's only 6.

I have asked his first owner if she would consider taking him back, if that's what I decided to do, as a companion. I don't feel a ridden career is right for him, and he could end up seriously injuring someone, he's a big lad.

I am absolutely gutted. This month has been a rather **** one.
 
I did get him vetted, and nothing was shown up, apart from his bad back and the fact that he is pigeon toed at the front. Nothing about his hocks, there are no scars, that I can see. The vet was very thorough so I am really surprised nothing was picked up.
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Only a two stage though - so pretty minimal vetting.

It's a really sh&tty thing that's happened to you - I can understand how gutted you must be.

What conversations have you had subsequent to purchase with the person you bought him from???
 
OMG I got offered this horse for very little money but wouldn't touch him. If I remember he was a bay tb gelding? They tried homing him through project horses. Pm me for more info but I might have e mails pouring their heart and his problems out to me.
 
Might be a stupid question but is he sound ? Is it just a behaviour issue you are dealing with now ? - My horse has had OCD surgery and has OA in one hock but is fine to ride (so far) however its only been 5 month since his surgery but it still doesent make things any better as she lied to you in the first place. Just dont give up on him so soon. xxx
 
Firstly you need proper legal advise, so get onto your insurers/BHS helpline pronto.

Then, in my non-qualified opinion, you need to start collecting as much evidence as possible.
Get a statement from previous owner giving full details of horses history
Get copies of adverts that describe what horse is being sold as
Do you have any witnesses from when purchasing animal?
Contact the vet, and discuss with them
Write a letter to the seller (recorded delivery) detailing all the above and state that you intend to take them to small claims court

TBH, my ultimate aim out of all of this would be to get a refund (maybe minus £400) keep horse and have him PTS (assuming he is either still unsound or dangerous) as the original owner so fooloishly did not do to start with.

What a horrible situation for you.
 
I'm very confused here - the vet picked up the horse had a bad back ? Can I just ask why you went ahead and bought him anyway ? Surely you would not have a claim if you already knew about the back ??? Sorry to sound a bit thick, have I missed the point ? sm x
 
shysmum said:
I'm very confused here - the vet picked up the horse had a bad back ? Can I just ask why you went ahead and bought him anyway ? Surely you would not have a claim if you already knew about the back ??? Sorry to sound a bit thick, have I missed the point ? sm x
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Sorry Ignore me SM if you read previous reply which I have now deleted
 
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trotter259 said:
I have recently bought a new horse. When I bought him home he had a very sore back, thought to be from a very badly fitting saddle that the old owner was riding him in.


I had a 2 Stage vetting done before I bought him and it bought nothing up, other than his sore back.
Click to expand...


Who told you it was down to the badly fitting saddle?

what is exactly the horse doing now as you say that you saw him being ridden in his old home? Is he actually unrideable?
 
QR - Poor you :¬(

Having looked into this for a friend in a similar situation recently, I believe that the sale of horses privately is covered by the Sales of Goods Act. You'd need to look at the Act to get the exact wording, but there is a provision covering private sales which says that the goods must be 'as described'. So, if you are to be successful in the small claims court (definitely the way to go) then you will need cold hard evidence that N presented the horse as having no soundness problems. If you don't have this evidence then I really do think you are in an impossible situation I'm afraid.

If you decide to go down the small claims route then you will need to show that you have tried to resolve matters outside the courts. So you need to first send N a 'letter before action' explaining your complaint and giving her a reasonable period to put things right by taking back the horse and giving you a full refund (or whatever terms you like). I would mention the relevant part of the Sales of Goods Act that you think she has offended, and try to make the letter as legal and imposing as possible in the hope that she caves.

I do wonder whether you have any comeback against the vet... Did the horse actually pass the 2 stage? If it was passed and the vet recommended purchase then you may have something there, but it is a long shot as I expect you will have had to sign something to say that you are aware that a 2 stage is not a full vetting and has limited value etc.

Good luck.
 
Im in the EXACT same position, my boy was sold to me with the old owners full knowledge (and forgetting to tell me) that he has kissing spine and a collaped hock! And he passed a 5 stage vetting With Xrays (dealers vet!!). Its a cut and dry case for Trading standards, legally you can return the horse and get a full refund. I have got all of my vets fees back to with the promise to not slander the vet clinic!!

P.S. I would take that letter off the internet in case you need to use it in court ;).

Also I havnt given my boy back as its more complicated than that, the old owners returned him for no refund (payed 10K) as he was so dangerous with the promise that he would go out on loan to someone who knows his full medical history. Of course that didnt happen - he got sold on to me almost as soon as he was given back as a safe, sane confidence giver (which he really is not!!). If I give him back I fear he will be sold on, so hopefully with the collabiration of the old old people that gave him back we can go in for a joint case for all her money refunded and all of ours (court case). Good luck to the A******** that sold him to me in the first place ;)!!
 
I do wonder whether you have any comeback against the vet... Did the horse actually pass the 2 stage? If it was passed and the vet recommended purchase then you may have something there, but it is a long shot as I expect you will have had to sign something to say that you are aware that a 2 stage is not a full vetting and has limited value etc. Quote.



I was under the impression that vets don't give a recommendation to buy, just a snapshot in time assessment of the horses physical condition.

If asked they will say whether that physical condition is likely to help or hinder the persons goal ie if someone is looking to do advanced dressage but the horse has weak hocks for example the vet will state the horse has weak hocks and unlikely to excel at high level dressage but they don't say ' no I don't recommend or yes I do recommend you buy it.

On that basis I'm not sure the OP has much comeback. The vet could argue he stated the horse had a weak back but it was the buyers decision to purchase.

Not sure but these cases of horses knowingly being sold with health problems seem to be becoming more frequent and its awful for the purchases who build up a bond with the animal knowing it can't fulfill what they originally bought it for.
 
Not legal advice at all but if his original owner would be willing and able to offer him a home for life (which it sounds as if she may do) why don't you offer him back to her for £1. I know you are £1999 short but it is costing you to keep him, potentially will cost a lot of money to go to court and you will have a horse on your hands fit for nothing purposeful unless you love him enough to keep forever and love from the ground.

With money saved in the long run go buy something cheap or get one on loan or from a rescue centre and put this episode behind you.

I do feel so sorry for you but can invisage things dragging on for so long and making your life hell in the meantime.

Good luck xxx
 
If you contact the seller then send them the letter by Royal Mail Signed For or Special Delivery so that there is no doubt that your letter has been received on a specific date. Do not send my E-mail.

The fact that you asked for a medical history and the seller failed to disclose the horses full medical history means that you can take action against the seller as they have not been honest and truthfull.

I would simply send the seller a letter asking for a full refund stating that from the date of the letter the seller will be resposible for all your expenses in keeping the horse. Give them 14 days to provide the refund in cash and also collect the horse.

Failing that simply take them to the small claims court which you can do easily online.

Here is the link:
https://www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/web/mcol/welcome
 
Trotter, this must be so awful for you, and I feel very sorry for you as been there, done that. There is in fact very little you can do unfortunately. Cariad is correct in her legal analysis - any claim against your seller would be for misrepresentation, but the difficulty is that you have to convince a small claims court judge that you relied on what the seller told you, the extent that it induced you to buy the horse - ie it was the main reason you bought him. As you tried him and vetted him, including the vetting showing up a sore back, it is highly likely that the judge will not be at all convinced that any representation (which could helpfully be on an advert) or oral induced you buy him. In my opinion you are therefore unlikley to win in court. It can be an incredibly awful experience, even though it is not supposed to be scary as people can lie under pressure and make false accusations against you in front of the judge.

The law does not protect private purchasers very well at all in these circumstances which is why sales fall through when the vetting reveals something. Caveat emptor is the way it is and not the "fit for purpose" trading standards route, which only applies to dealers. The judges in small claims courts are very used to disputes about purchasing dodgy cars and know the law very well so they are very diffiult to persuade on misrep cases.

I helped my friend bring a claim (on an unpaid basis) earlier this year in very similar circumstances. The poor pony had such bad arthritis in a fetlock that it was in terrible pain and in the end we had to put her down before the court heard the case. We believe she had been given large doses of bute before being tried as later the xrays showed many years of damage. We couldnt persuade the judge that she had relied on the seller's representations that she was a suitable pony club pony as my friend had tried her 3 times and the judge decided that the trial was the basis on which she made the decision to purchase (which was of course true). She did not have the pony vetted which would have shown up the problem, and if she had, she would not have got through with the purchase. For my friend, the whole court thing was an emotional nightmare and many tears were shed. Only if you have a very good case would I recommend this, sadly.

I am feeling so so sorry for you and your horse. I hope you make the right choice for him.
 
I've just read the receipt that we did (which neither of us have signed!), and it says sold as seen!

I have no comeback do I now?! This stupid little girl needs slapping. My poor, poor boy.
 
Not sure how correct this is and im sure someone will tell me if im right or wrong, but im sure i read on here somewhere that a receipt with 'sold as seen' on does'nt mean anything.
 
If the seller sells more than 2 horses a year, she is be considered to be a dealer in the civil claims court. A friend argued this in the small claims court last year and won. I'd find out if she has sold more than 2 in the past year and use that as leverage for a refund as she will be subject to trading standards.
 
Originally Posted by trotter259
I have recently bought a new horse. When I bought him home he had a very sore back, thought to be from a very badly fitting saddle that the old owner was riding him in.


I had a 2 Stage vetting done before I bought him and it bought nothing up, other than his sore back.



Who told you it was down to the badly fitting saddle?

what is exactly the horse doing now as you say that you saw him being ridden in his old home? Is he actually unrideable?

Not sure about the "2 horse sold in a year" dealer thing... There was a post about this the other day and people were saying that it wasn't true..... Worth checking though.
 
Actually it was true about the 2 horses a year because my next door neighbour (professor of law at Cambridge) was the one who did the research and argued it successfully!
 
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