LEGAL MATTERS!

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sarah&max

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The people who took my horse on loan decided he was not suitable for them anymore, but instead of giving me a months notice stated in the signed contract, they brought a new pony straight away, and contacted me to suggest max went to a college to be used by students. as i did not have sufficient notice i was not able to find anywhere to put him and so i said he could go, and we will see how he gets on. iv been to visit him several times, and he is miserable! visably depressed and not happy at all! i have not signed any contracts, and would like to pick my horse up on saturday. i have informed the college of this, thinking it would be simple, but they are now saying i can not pick up MY HORSE until i have paid a ludacris bill for livery since he has been there, fuel costs for when they picked him up from his loan owners, and cost of time for them when they came out to ride him to see if he was suitable! can they do this? as i said i have not signed a thing, but the contract that they emailed me to have a look at and discuss only states that the college has the right to charge livery for any horses that can not be picked up by the owner by an agreed time, but i can pick him up, but they still want to charge me? any info would be greatly appreciated. i just want to get my boy back and cheer him up and get him back to his happy self.
 
The agreement must contain some information about term and notice periods etc? If it doesnt then they are on a much stickier wicket asking you for any notice period/making any charges. But there must be something - ask them for a copy of the signed agreement that the loanee signed with them.

If they can produce it then I think you would be in difficulty should the agreement be for a fixed period or subject to x amount of notice, to breach this and take the horse back straight away since you agreed he could go and at that point you could/should have made enquiries about the colleges terms of acceptance.

You havent signed any contracts but you gave permission to the loanee (who would then be acting as your agent legally) for him to go, which might give them the power to sign the college agreement.

The fact that you gave verbal and not written permission doesnt mean you can get out of it any easier.

If you have actual welfare concerns (as in RSPCA/WHW type level) then that would be a different matter as the college would be in breach of the agreement.

If the college cant produce any agreement signed by the horse keeper (loanee) and themselves on the terms on which the horse is to be kept then I would inform them in writing that you will be collecting the horse and that no fees are payable since they have had use of the horse during the period they have kept it.
 
Assuming the loaner did not sign anything either I would send them a letter recorded delivery advising that you will be picking up on a set date. State that you did not sign any agreement for him to be there and that had they required you to do so they should not have accepted him untill you had done so, any resulting issues are down to their negligence in not doing. Quote the part of the sample contract that you have mentioned to us and advise that you are able and willing to collect so this would not apply and although you did not sign a contract with them, you are aware that their standard process does not allow for what they are attempting. As your horse is clearly not happy you consider it a welfare issue and wish to remove him as soon as practical. Provide name and address of loaner, remind them that the arrangement was made through loaner and suggest that they direct any bills there.

Good luck.

If all else fails, go get him and then fight it. For them to succeed in Court I believe they would need a signed agreement or proof that they had not been able to use him for the time they have had him (and that you know they would not be able to) or that they had invested significantly in making him useable and could not recoup their expenses (ie not just buying tack which they could use on another horse or sell on). They have provided the livery services etc in excange for having the use of him, which assuming he is sound and healthy, they have had. What they have chosen to do with him in that time is irrelevant, if he is fit for work they have had the use of him.
 
no parties have signed anything at all. the loanee simply asked me if i wanted to try it, and i said i would be willing to try, but we will see how it goes, and after i have seen the contract etc we will discuss.

there are no harmful welfare issues, he has feed and water, but it is just not suited to him. he is stabled 6 1/2 hours a day and he is used to living out. I thought they went out every day for a short period of time, but i was wrong.

he has been there for 3 weeks, no students have ridden him, as they do not start until next week, but the staff have ridden him to prepare him for the 3 times a day work load.

it states on the contract they gave me, that the agreement would start when i have given them a signed copy, which i have not.

livery ok, fair enough, they have have fed and watered him for 3 weeks, but have also used him in that time. but fuel and time costs? surley not.

i don't like to make things difficult, but money is tight for everyone at the moment, and i just want to make sure i am not being ripped off.
 
i had to pester them for 2 weeks after he had been picked up and taken there for a copy of the contract! so yes, they took him without getting any signed permission from me. it was only becasue his previous owner brought a new pony, and could not afford to pay maxs livery that she got him shipped off asap! :(
 
Pay the livery and pick up the horse.

They can't charge for things that you hadn't agreed on previously, like time and fuel. They are trying it on.

The livery is perfectly fair but if they wanted to be paid for time and fuel they should have made this clear before they went to look/get him. If they've lost out it's their own fault for not being clearer about costs.

If it was mine, I'd go get him, but turn up much earlier than you say, and take someone else with you. Take the livery money with you and give it to them with your thanks for them looking after him, then load him up and drive away.

If they are charging for things they haven't agreed on, it's their fault if they are out of pocket, tbh.

Plus, you IMO you shouldnt have agreed to him going in the first place, and should have insisted the loaners stuck to the contract, new pony or not. Again, it was their fault if it cost them!

Remember, people will only walk all over you if you let them :)
 
Dont think you have much of a leg to stand on sorry. If hes only been there three weeks, the livery shouldnt be too much.

Pay the bill and take him home.
 
sarah&max said:
i had to pester them for 2 weeks after he had been picked up and taken there for a copy of the contract! so yes, they took him without getting any signed permission from me. it was only becasue his previous owner brought a new pony, and could not afford to pay maxs livery that she got him shipped off asap! :(
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I think to be fair, you've made a complete mess of this. And had you taken control of the situation from the start, you wouldn't be where you are now.

Pay the bill, collect the horse, learn the lesson.
 
I agree with Patterdale, pay the livery, but tell them they will have to go after the other loanees if they want the additional costs, etc that you weren't aware of.

I would be tempted to put it in a (very polite) email that is what you are planning to do ...... they can't refuse you having your horse back, but best to have something in writing that is traceable if no one sensible is on the yard at the time you turn up. If anyone is difficult, make sure you take a note of their name, time, etc!

Good luck, loaning horses can be miserable and expensive - I know only too well!!!
 
thank you all... just waiting for BHS to get back to me, but yes i think i will pay the livery amount, and just get him home. thing is i think they are going to make it difficult and maybe not return his passport, in which case i cant legally travel him... and the longer they keep him there for, the bigger the livery bill will be.. from what seemed like such a good idea, has now turned into an expensive nightmare :(

Lesson learnt.
 
I have already sent them a very polite email, informing them that i want to pick him up saturday, and this is when they stated i could not pick him up until the bill was paid. i have asked them to send me the bill asap, but no reply. again another days livery they can add to the bill. its not like they have to find a replacememnt horse, they have over 30 horses!
 
agreed! hash blooming brown! lol top priority is my boy, so i will go along saturday with some money if they ever tell me how much they want, and collect him. i will have a few people with me, and will make note of anyone being difficult.
 
Yes BIG lesson to be learnt here sarah&max I'm not going to tell you what you should have done, as his owner I assume you know...

BUT that said, this is a college they own the yard and it is probably a box that would have been empty... Go above and beyond, it is a college at the end of the day, take it higher.. I wouldnt put it passed them to be trying to pull a fast one...
 
sarah&max said:
agreed! hash blooming brown! lol top priority is my boy, so i will go along saturday with some money if they ever tell me how much they want, and collect him. i will have a few people with me, and will make note of anyone being difficult.
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I'd pick up the phone and ask them what the bill will be. That way you'll have the right amount of cash with you.
 
sarah&max said:
its not like they have to find a replacememnt horse, they have over 30 horses!
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They would have the number of horses they needed.
You used them as an easy get out of the situation you found yourself in.
They incurred costs assesing and collecting the horse.
It has been on FULL RIDDEN livery for the entire time it has been there.
They have not had a single hours use from it.
They will now have to incurr more expense finding a replacement for your horse.
Pay up, collect horse and in future take proper responsibility for YOUR horse.
 
woah PaddyMonty! excuse me! it was not an easy get out clause at all! not for me anyway. i was not given a months notice from his loan home that they could not have him anymore, and i did not have the space or the money to have him home! hence why he went out on loan in the first place!

i came on here for some helpful advice, not to be intimidated and made to feel bad for trying to do whats best for my horse. save your bad mouthing for people who genuinely abuse horses.

thank you to all others who have POLITELY helped me.
 
sarah&max said:
i came on here for some helpful advice, not to be intimidated and made to feel bad for trying to do whats best for my horse. save your bad mouthing for people who genuinely abuse horses.
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You really expect people to believe you haven't used the college as a get out?
Simple fact is if you place a horse on loan it is still your responsibility.
I'm sure I could find grass livery within 24 hours if I needed to.
You took the simple convenient cheap option and now complain when the college want to be compensated for the fuel and time they have invested in a horse they will now not get any use from.

Sorry but we obviously see this situation very differently.
 
PaddyMonty said:
You really expect people to believe you haven't used the college as a get out?
Simple fact is if you place a horse on loan it is still your responsibility.
I'm sure I could find grass livery within 24 hours if I needed to.
You took the simple convenient cheap option and now complain when the college want to be compensated for the fuel and time they have invested in a horse they will now not get any use from.

Sorry but we obviously see this situation very differently.
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Erm "PaddyMonty" Pipe down. As Mentioned OP came on here for ADVICE not a Roll88ing. I think op is aware this is a hard lesson. Dont you??????????
 
I think you should pay the bill in order to get your horse home asp. However, I think the former loaners should contribute for the month's notice period as they failed to comply with the terms of the loan contract.
 
We see so many loan agreements go wrong I have to wonder why people bother tbh.

If you are going to loan its always advisable to have a contingency plan for when it goes wrong.

Poor Max.
 
KierelyMiss said:
Erm "PaddyMonty" Pipe down. As Mentioned OP came on here for ADVICE not a Roll88ing. I think op is aware this is a hard lesson. Dont you??????????
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Urm no, the OP came on here moaning about a college trying to rip her off.
I just happen to think the college is the one being treated unfairly and if the OP does not want to loose out then she should be going after the loanee for the additional cost. They are the ones who broke the contract.

So no, I wont 'pipe down'
 
amymay said:
I think to be fair, you've made a complete mess of this. And had you taken control of the situation from the start, you wouldn't be where you are now.

Pay the bill, collect the horse, learn the lesson.
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OP it depends who the college has the contract with hopefully the legal helpline will explain this in the meantime Are you right to go and get your horse they can't stop you unless you signed something that allows them to hold it.
 
sarah&max said:
The people who took my horse on loan decided he was not suitable for them anymore, but instead of giving me a months notice stated in the signed contract, they brought a new pony straight away, and contacted me to suggest max went to a college to be used by students. as i did not have sufficient notice i was not able to find anywhere to put him and so i said he could go, and we will see how he gets on. iv been to visit him several times, and he is miserable! visably depressed and not happy at all! i have not signed any contracts, and would like to pick my horse up on saturday. i have informed the college of this, thinking it would be simple, but they are now saying i can not pick up MY HORSE until i have paid a ludacris bill for livery since he has been there, fuel costs for when they picked him up from his loan owners, and cost of time for them when they came out to ride him to see if he was suitable! can they do this? as i said i have not signed a thing, but the contract that they emailed me to have a look at and discuss only states that the college has the right to charge livery for any horses that can not be picked up by the owner by an agreed time, but i can pick him up, but they still want to charge me? any info would be greatly appreciated. i just want to get my boy back and cheer him up and get him back to his happy self.
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Yep defo came looking for info/advice. Doh... :rolleyes:
 
All colleges charge for full livery in the holidays. This is what you've had for the past 3wks, the chances are you'd have been billed for this at some point anyway, so I'd pay it. Though since you had no contract for this period (written or verbal) stating that he was on livery, it could be argued that the only contract you had with them at this time is a verbal contract stating that he was on loan to them and as such you could argue they are responsible for all costs.

I wouldn't pay the other charges. They chose to come out to assess him for suitability as a college horse so I don't see why you should pay for that. If they wanted payment they should have told you in advance. I disagree with whoever said the horse was at the college for assessment, he was assessed as suitable before he was collected. I can see that they'd want to charge for collecting him, its fair enough, but since they didn't agree a price with you before collection I'd tell them to get lost on that score.

He is your horse and you have, in the absence of any agreement, the right to take him whenever you like. I'd turn up unannounced and take him, rather than give them the option of making your life difficult by moving him or blocking you in etc to try to prevent you taking him.

The issue of monies owed is separate to the issue of you removing the horse. I'd argue about the money later, pay what I thought was fair and let them chase through the court if they like. The college carry an equal responsibility for this mess IMO, because they didn't get either you or the loaner to sign a livery or loan agreement before they collected the horse.
 
sarah&max said:
but they are now saying i can not pick up MY HORSE until i have paid a ludacris bill for livery since he has been there, fuel costs for when they picked him up from his loan owners, and cost of time for them when they came out to ride him to see if he was suitable! .
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Yep def moaning about being ripped off. :rolleyes:
 
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