Legal people, please deny or confirm my thoughts.

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Goldbar

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a. Sold a horse.
b. Sold said horse early July, after 2 week trial period.
c. New owners contacted and confirmed they were delighted.
d. 3 weeks later, more contact and handed over passport. Met in person, saw horse in new home.
e. Another week, phone call, horse has been kicking.
f. Today, more news, horse has been kicking out, naughty to ride, the works. Now they want refund in full and their livery bill paid for as 'horse not as discribed'.

Where do I stand? I loved the horse, but can't take back due to personal situations. I also liked the new owners very much, and am deeply sad they have said what they have said.
HELP
 
I'm not a legal person but Sold as seen in my book.

I think it depends if you are in any kind of equine related business in which case the legal situation might be different. If you are just a private seller I think the law is on your side.

Have you tried speaking to them to see if you can help resolve the issues? If the horse was not a kicker before, and is exhibiting different behaviours there is normally a reason whether it be that he is just testing them out, a different feed or whatever.
 
Why was the passport handed over after three weeks of ownership, and was the horse vetted?

This may be a situation where it depends how much hassle you are prepared to take - if it were me, and my circumstances prevented me from having the horse back, I wouldn't. From what you have said, you have done nothing wrong.

I'm not a legal expert though.
 
Horse has been sold and paid for, unless you are a dealer they have no come back.

I would suggest that the horses routine (diet to exercise ratio) has been changed and the horses is acting out. I would advise new owner you can't have him back but would advise them of his previous routine and see how they have varied from it.
 
If you are a horse dealer I think you are legally obliged to take the horse back as it is not as described. Also it would not be good for reputation either. However it is my understanding that there is no come back on privately sold horses i.e. I often hear the phrase "buyer beware". I am not a legal person though. Also the person who bought your horse has lost all credibility in my opinion by asking you to pay the livery bill too. That just seems ridiculous!!! Not sure where you would stand if they could prove that you had deliberately mislead them though.

I
 
They had a 2 week trial, if not longer, they were happy for at least 5 weeks, something has probably changed to cause him to become difficult, unless he has had a known history that you have failed to declare, either physical or behavioural, then you are not to blame, if they were reasonable they should be asking you to help advise them not expecting to return him.
It is such a shame when things go wrong, it sounds as if you were very fair by giving them a trial period, they probably need to get a vet involved to make sure he is not reacting to pain, look at what may have changed in the management after having him going well for the first 5 weeks and see if they can find out why he is behaving this way, it could be so many things to be blaming you is such a shame.
 
You can be sued as a private owner .
And if you lose you be made to pay thing like livery costs and vets fees .
I think some who posted on here went through it .
You need proper experienced advice now from a equine specialist solicitor if you are aBHS member that's a good start point ,their legal helpline .
Come hell or high water I would have my horse back I would not leave one in trouble
I would tell them to sue me if they wanted the livery costs though .
 
Goldbar said:
a. Sold a horse.
b. Sold said horse early July, after 2 week trial period.
c. New owners contacted and confirmed they were delighted.
d. 3 weeks later, more contact and handed over passport. Met in person, saw horse in new home.
e. Another week, phone call, horse has been kicking.
f. Today, more news, horse has been kicking out, naughty to ride, the works. Now they want refund in full and their livery bill paid for as 'horse not as discribed'.

Where do I stand? I loved the horse, but can't take back due to personal situations. I also liked the new owners very much, and am deeply sad they have said what they have said.
HELP
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Tell them to go to hell, they've had it on a trail fgs! Those sort will always, always be a pia - no matter how good the horse. If you're emotionally attached to the horse you could refund, I absolutely wouldn't refund livery fees though :0
 
If this is a private sale rather than business then the law that covers the buyer for being fit for purpose, the sale of goods act, is not applicable to this sale and therefore the buyers right of a refund if deemed not fit for purpose is not there. However the buyer could take u through the small claims court but would have to prove that you as the seller knew or ought to have known about the horses behaviour that they are now saying renders the horse not fit for purpose, if they could prove this then yes they may have a case to claim full refund and any expenses incurred. It's the proving that is the difficult bit for private sales and given you allowed a trial first would go in your favour. I'd say get some advice from Bhs helpline but don't agree to anything with these buyers. Outline you are not in a position to provide a refund and that the horse did not display any behaviour with you similar to that they gave decribed and see where they go.
 
If you have any relationship with the horse and care about it's welfare then take it back and find a more suitable new home. I couldn't tell from your first post if you had been to see them and tried to ride the horse / sort out the problems with them. Possibly the horse may be better off in a totally new home.

Legally, which for me is secondary - If this is the only horse you have sold recently and you didn't sell horses on a regular basis prior (say last 2 - 3 years) to that then it's probably safe to say it's a private sale. The classification for a dealer is quite easy to fall into if you buy bring on and sell and most people don't realise that.
 
What is he kicking suddenly after a month?
I suspect they are novice owners and just discovered they can't afford a horse, this idea that you have to provide a horse for them to ride/ruin then they demand refund of expenses is ridiculous.
Suggest they ask an equine vet to examine the horse, and if it is OK then they pay for a good BHSII instructor to come and help them out.
Something has gone wrong, probably they have just "changed their mind".
 
Twinkley Lights said:
If you have any relationship with the horse and care about it's welfare then take it back and find a more suitable new home. I couldn't tell from your first post if you had been to see them and tried to ride the horse / sort out the problems with them. Possibly the horse may be better of in a totally new home.

Legally, which for me is secondary - If this is the only horse you have sold recently and you didn't sell horses on a regular basis prior (say last 2 - 3 years) to that then it's probably safe to say it's a private sale. The classification for a dealer is quite easy to fall into if you buy bring on and sell and most people don't realise that.
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I thought you had to sell maybe three per annum, I mean I used to "bring ponies on" but I did not do it as a business, it was a hobby, and was not profitable. In fact I made a loss, even discounting my labour.
 
It is very rare to be able to sue a private seller. There will always be exceptions but the general rule in private sales only is buyer beware. If you are a dealer - or if you sell horses often enough to be argued to be dealing, or of you sold the horse on behalf of a third party, then you are covered by the Trade Descriptions Act and be sued.
 
JCW said:
If you are a horse dealer I think you are legally obliged to take the horse back as it is not as described. Also it would not be good for reputation either. However it is my understanding that there is no come back on privately sold horses i.e. I often hear the phrase "buyer beware". I am not a legal person though. Also the person who bought your horse has lost all credibility in my opinion by asking you to pay the livery bill too. That just seems ridiculous!!! Not sure where you would stand if they could prove that you had deliberately mislead them though.

I
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They may have had legal advice in an attempt to recover all losses inc livery fees etc.
 
Bonkers2 said:
I thought you had to sell maybe three per annum, I mean I used to "bring ponies on" but I did not do it as a business, it was a hobby, and was not profitable. In fact I made a loss, even discounting my labour.
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No longer the case even selling one or two over a long time frame where you have sold on can be used to prove dealer status. If you sell them / multiples it's not a hobby you are dealing and many people don't realise that.
 
Selling a horse is a complete minefield because horses can change and become difficult when they move homes. Often it's because the new owners are inexperienced, change the routine, feed too much or ride too little or completely over horsed themselves. Unfortunately, instead of getting help, new owners are too quick too blame the horse when sometimes the fault lies with them. I think the fact they have had a trial and been happy with the horse puts them in a difficult place with regard to getting a refund from you but if they are not too far from them, I'd offer to go over and give them a bit of advice and help. When all said and done you must want the horse to have a good home and it can take several months for a horse to settle with new owners.
 
I think the fact that they had a trial period and at the end of the trial period stated that they were happy and went ahead with the purchase means that it's highly unlikely they'd be successful in any court action.

You don't need to have any equine knowledge to see that any change to the horse occurred after the trial period when the horse had been in there care for 5 weeks. I think they've got a damn cheek if I'm honest.

Just to cover yourself, get some expert legal advice.

While I totally understand what other posters are saying about taking the horse back and securing it's future, I do find it annoying that buyers these days don't seem to be willing to take things easy in the early weeks and give the horse time to settle. I once knew someone who went through horses like a hot knife through butter because within weeks each horse would start to push a little to see where the boundaries were and rather than deal with it she'd sell the horse on.
 
oldie48 said:
Selling a horse is a complete minefield because horses can change and become difficult when they move homes. Often it's because the new owners are inexperienced, change the routine, feed too much or ride too little or completely over horsed themselves. Unfortunately, instead of getting help, new owners are too quick too blame the horse when sometimes the fault lies with them. I think the fact they have had a trial and been happy with the horse puts them in a difficult place with regard to getting a refund from you but if they are not too far from them, I'd offer to go over and give them a bit of advice and help. When all said and done you must want the horse to have a good home and it can take several months for a horse to settle with new owners.
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I agree with the above. When I bought my horse I had unwittingly over horsed myself however instead of blaming the seller, I blamed myself. It was my fault for overestimating my ability. Not the sellers nor the horse's fault. It annoys me how some people just try and blame others rather than taking responsibility!
 
Twinkley Lights said:
No longer the case even selling one or two over a long time frame where you have sold on can be used to prove dealer status. If you sell them / multiples it's not a hobby you are dealing and many people don't realise that.
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Ii would dispute that, I mean it is quite unreasonable to say that just because one has a hobby that one becomes a dealer. A dealer is in business and does it to make money, they may not make money, but it is still their intention.
 
JCW said:
I agree with the above. When I bought my horse I had unwittingly over horsed myself however instead of blaming the seller, I blamed myself. It was my fault for overestimating my ability. Not the sellers nor the horse's fault. It annoys me how some people just try and blame others rather than taking responsibility!
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Some sellers though are less than honest (and I am NOT referring to the OP here). I remember trying a pony out as a young child who the owner assured us was viceless and completely bombproof in traffic. My sister, also a child of about 10, was trying him and was just about to leave the yard to try him on the road, with the owner smiling and saying he was perfectly safe when the owners husband drove into the yard upon which said pony reared, bucked and bolted with my sister who came off head first onto concrete.
No apologies from the owner at all, didn't even bother to ask if my sister was okay, just a diatribe against the husband for bringing the car on the yard when she was trying to sell the pony!
 
Bonkers2 said:
Ii would dispute that, I mean it is quite unreasonable to say that just because one has a hobby that one becomes a dealer. A dealer is in business and does it to make money, they may not make money, but it is still their intention.
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Happy for you to dispute bonkers2 I'm not offering legal advice just opinion. However if you are still pursuing this hobby it may be worth checking case law as it is not a test of reason in this instance merely actions and resulting status. For example a loss making sale would merely be a potential mitigating factor for any damages awarded against a "dealer" not proof of amateur / hobbyist status.
 
Seek professional legal advice however as you are a private seller their comeback on you is very limited, Additionally they had the horse on trial, then they bought the horse & all was fine the eventually the horse allegedly started playing up. I would imagine something they are doing/have done has upset the horse however that aside I doubt if they have any redress on you. They have had the horse for a lengthy period, how long do they expect to be able to have a horse & then decide they want to return it.

I believe they can threaten as much as they want there is little they can do legally, however I am not a solicitor so seek profesional advice.
 
Toby_Zaphod said:
Seek professional legal advice however as you are a private seller their comeback on you is very limited, Additionally they had the horse on trial, then they bought the horse & all was fine the eventually the horse allegedly started playing up. I would imagine something they are doing/have done has upset the horse however that aside I doubt if they have any redress on you. They have had the horse for a lengthy period, how long do they expect to be able to have a horse & then decide they want to return it.

I believe they can threaten as much as they want there is little they can do legally, however I am not a solicitor so seek profesional advice.
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It really depends how deep their pockets are they can take OP to court if they have the resource and once a case gets to court anything can happen on the day in a civil case.
 
Sorry to hear this Goldenstar - horse is no longer your responsibility and I humbly suggest the new owners haven't given horse time to settle and become used to new routine/handlers - correct me if Im wrong but this often happens with change of ownership doesn't it. Caveat emptor.
 
LessThanPerfect said:
Some sellers though are less than honest (and I am NOT referring to the OP here). I remember trying a pony out as a young child who the owner assured us was viceless and completely bombproof in traffic. My sister, also a child of about 10, was trying him and was just about to leave the yard to try him on the road, with the owner smiling and saying he was perfectly safe when the owners husband drove into the yard upon which said pony reared, bucked and bolted with my sister who came off head first onto concrete.
No apologies from the owner at all, didn't even bother to ask if my sister was okay, just a diatribe against the husband for bringing the car on the yard when she was trying to sell the pony!
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How awful! Was your sister hurt? I agree that there are also dishonest sellers out there, it's just from the sound of the OPs post, the buyers are looking to blame Op for there own shortcomings.
 
Thanks all for replying. I feel very hurt to have been 'used' like this. This was my very first sale of a horse, and at only 4 years old I had hoped, and honestly thought I'd found the perfect family home for all to grow up and enjoy over many years. I had had the horse since 6 months old, and always knew it was a project to bring on, back, do the basics and sell. Horse was very sweet natured, playful but sweet. I'd put a lot of my time, energy commitment and love into doing it all, and now I fear it has all been ruined. I can't have the horse back, my situation has changed, I've moved, given up horses of my own, and used the sale money on fixing my very broken car. Wish I had waited mind.
For those that have asked;
I had the passport while moving, but they had a full copy.
Horse was bought for under £1k
Horse was blood tested 'as deemed quiet'
Horse was given a very basic MOT, (eyes, heart and soundness) - all at the request of the buyer.
Horse was ridden several times before trial period started by buyer, in several situations, like in the open field, and down country lanes.
Horse was bought outright before the trial period was up, due to 'being perfect'.

I have spoken to several of my 'in the know' friends, and they are saying I shouldn't be worrying. Can't help it, I hate it when it all goes tits up and I feel I'm involved.
 
Goldbar said:
Thanks all for replying. I feel very hurt to have been 'used' like this. This was my very first sale of a horse, and at only 4 years old I had hoped, and honestly thought I'd found the perfect family home for all to grow up and enjoy over many years. I had had the horse since 6 months old, and always knew it was a project to bring on, back, do the basics and sell. Horse was very sweet natured, playful but sweet. I'd put a lot of my time, energy commitment and love into doing it all, and now I fear it has all been ruined. I can't have the horse back, my situation has changed, I've moved, given up horses of my own, and used the sale money on fixing my very broken car. Wish I had waited mind.
For those that have asked;
I had the passport while moving, but they had a full copy.
Horse was bought for under £1k
Horse was blood tested 'as deemed quiet'
Horse was given a very basic MOT, (eyes, heart and soundness) - all at the request of the buyer.
Horse was ridden several times before trial period started by buyer, in several situations, like in the open field, and down country lanes.
Horse was bought outright before the trial period was up, due to 'being perfect'.

I have spoken to several of my 'in the know' friends, and they are saying I shouldn't be worrying. Can't help it, I hate it when it all goes tits up and I feel I'm involved.
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Gutted for you OP, but I would be telling them to jog on. Was the blood that was taken actually tested or just stored? If they're that concerned you could suggest they have it tested.
 
As he is so young it is likely they have been doing too much, not enough or just taken on more than they are able to cope with, not everyone can bring on a youngster correctly and he may just have been a little too green or challenging for them.
It is a shame that they are being aggressive in their attitude, if they came back and asked for help admitting their inexperience is mainly to blame then it would be easier for you to get involved with helping them, it may only require a sensible approach to get them back on track, it is sad for the young horse that you owned from 6 months to be in the middle of this, is there anyway you could have him back to get him going again to sell on their behalf, or has it gone beyond the reasoning stage.
 
As this was private sale the buyer is not protected by the sale of goods act. The buyer would have to prove that the horse was misrepresented in the sales particulars. Misrepresentation is difficult to prove and the buyer would have to PROVE that the horse displayed this behaviour prior to sale and that the vendor was aware of it. I am not a legal advisor but have studied this scenario. I would speak to BHS legal helpline or similar for confirmation but from what you've said I don't think you have anything to worry about. Feel sorry for the horse though.
 
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