Legal Sale

[marillier]

I bought a horse from a dealer in Ireland which turned out to be a nutter. He had had the horse for six months before selling it to me and had never registered the horse in his name. By all accounts it is illegal to own a horse and not register it. Does this void the contract?

 

[spacefaer]

It's may be illegal but it's not uncommon, both in the UK and Ireland. I can't see how it would void the contract though. He offered the horse for sale and you bought it - that's the contract, surely?

(advisory.... not a lawyer!)

 

[marillier]

I am inclined to agree but he sold the horse without legally registering it in his name. Therefore the contract is possibly illegal. I brought a case against the guy in Ireland and the court threw it out saying there was no contract between us although I have a signed and receipted bill of sale. They didnt give a reason but i thought it might be because he hadn't registered the horse in his name.

 

[Polos Mum]

Registered with the passport issuing authority?
As passports have nothing to do with ownership (search on here for 150 examples of why) then no I can't imagine anything on a passport impacting the validity of a sale contract

 

[marillier]

So what is the reason for registering a horse within thirty days of buying it if it has no consequence. This horse has the registered owner of the person who sold it in 2016. I have found three other people who owned since then, none of whom registered it their names, and you can be heavily fined in Ireland if you do not do so but it seems that dealers do not bother. In this instance i guess they were only to happy to be not associated with the horse as it was a nutter.

 

[Goldenstar]

You decided to buy the horse with the passport details out of date that was your choice of course it does not void the contract .
I have never bought a horse from a dealer with the passport in the correct name .

 

[shortstuff99]

You should have recourse to return the horse as not fit for purpose/sales of goods act as it was from a dealer.

 

[doodle]

I have never bought a horse with the correct (or any) name on the passport. Yes it is not correct but it means nothing. And certainly didn’t mean the sale was invalid. The name in the passport does nothing to prove the ownership of the horse. I have just changed it into my name in the required time. It sounds like you don’t have a way forward and are clutching at straws.

 

[marillier]

Golden Star. I did not decide to buy a horse with out of date passport details. it just arrived that way, i think you are being a bit hard. Maybe you are a dealer. It would be much better if the passport actually meant something and if needed the horse could be traced back through previous owners. Why bother to have passports if they mean nothing. As for the courts, yes I have I know I have a valid claim as the vendor agreed in writing that he sold me the horse and had provided me with a signed receipt. The horse went back but he won't repay me. The court said there was no contract of sale between us and I wondered whether the passport had something to do with it. From the reaction on the forum, obviously not !!

 

[Goldenstar]

You chose to buy a horse without seeing the passport .
no body forced you .
and it seems perhaps you where foolish enough to buy the horse without seeing it
It’s your fault you did not take the time to protect yourself .

I have just bought a horse it’s passport has not been updated since it was done as a foal he is ten now and several homes on it’s extremely common .

 

[Equi]

Passports are identification for the meat trade. They have nothing to do with legal ownership of the horse.

 

[Widgeon]

https://www.horsepassportagency.co.uk/forms/horse_passport_law_guide_2019-a.pdf

"The passport is evidence of the equines identity but not proof of ownership and so buyers are advised to get a receipt from the seller to include a minimum of the Life Number from the passport, the seller and buyers name and address with the amount and date paid."

This is from the Horse Passport Agency, so I would assume / hope it is correct. So I can't see that the fact that the dealer had failed to update the passport actually has any bearing on his ownership of it. I can't understand why the passport is an issue in this case, unless of course there is some dispute over whether the horse is the same one as in the passport, or a third party is claiming that they actually own the horse - but neither seems to be the case.

Surely this is one for the Sale of Goods Act, as shortstuff99 says?

 

[Leandy]

No I don't think it voids the the contract. The passport is not a legal document of title and passing of title does not depend on change of ownership in the passport. That is not what it is for. As others have said it is very common not to bother changing ownership in a passport. Many people don't bother, rightly or wrongly, especially dealers. Given you can't sell the horse, transport it, compete it whatever without the passport, it isn't necessarily sensible to part with it if you are a dealer wanting a quick sale at any minute. You would definitely not buy if he couldn't produce a passport at all because he sent it off and hasn't got it back. I think if someone really wishes to hide a horse's past they conveniently lose the passport and get a new one issued. Voila, no history at all!

 

[Polos Mum]

OP I wonder if it is the sale of the horse back to the dealer sale that the court has deemed void.

There are two sales here and two contracts. Your purchase sounds like it has some sensible documents. But if you didn't get a signed sale contract when you sold it back to the dealer, perhaps he has claimed you gifted the 'nutter' back to him and hence he doesn't owe you anything?

Best next step sounds like getting in contact with the court and finding out which of the two sales they are talking about/

 

[PeterNatt]

Was it Northern or Southern Ireland?

 

[AmyMay]

All you need to do is ask the court for an explanation on their decision.

 

[laura_nash]

So what is the reason for registering a horse within thirty days of buying it if it has no consequence.

There are consequences in theory though very rarely in practice. As others have said the passport is for traceability for the meat trade, like the cattle passport, and since Ireland doesn't have much of an equine meat trade they are rarely properly enforced. In theory if the dealer were inspected and found to have a horse without a passport or with the wrong details in the passport they might get a warning, more likely to happen if they are also farming cattle / sheep from the same premises. In theory I think a vet should refuse to give certain drugs etc which shouldn't be fed to a horse that might be eaten without seeing the passport, but that is also rare especially since the vet is likely to know the dealer and its pretty unlikely an Irish horse would end up being eaten.

It has nothing to do with ownership or sale contracts and would have nothing to do with the courts decision (I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty confident this is correct). Did you not get any explanation of the court's decision?

 

[blitznbobs]

If it was in Ireland then you are into international law and things get complicated but seeing a passport is not proof of ownership and no one is disputing that the dealer owned the horse the contract remains valid... tbh if the horse did not belong to the dealer you are on a very sticky wicket because the horse now does not belong to you or the dealer but an unknown third party who could swoop in and take it back... and then you are in a whole heap of pain trying to get your money back ... unless the horse was extremely expensive it’s probably cheaper not to enter the international legal arena.

 

[MissDean]

Passport is just for the identity of the horse, not an ownership document. The reason dealers don’t change is probably two reasons. Time constraints and cost. I doubt buyers would be too happy if an extra ‘£££’ went onto the sale price of a horse to allow for the cost of changing it and also for the extra time the horse would have to be in the yard to allow for it to be done and returned. Wouldn’t make business sense as it isn’t a legal requirement

 

[Shay]

It is really common for dealers not to change the ownership of a horse. Yes it is technically a trading standards viloation but does not impact the contract between you and the dealer. But the vet conducting the vetting would have seen the passport - and really you should have asked. Did neither of you spot it?