Lessons with professionals

[pistolpete]

In light of the CDJ video I’m left wondering if anyone has had a lesson with her or any other higher profile professionals that felt a bit too violent? I really think it’s about coming clean now. What do we really think of medal chasing methods of training?

 

[U.N.Owen]

I have had lessons with quite a few top level riders and while none have been "violent" most have been rubbish, some don't know what to do if the horse isn't just naturally able to do it, and others that have pushed way too hard I guess in some effort to show the moneys worth .

I don't bother anymore.

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

I'm going to say that IF this kind of abuse is more common than we are comfortable with; then we have to tackle it at grass-roots level. Right from the start. I'm talking about the kiddie that's doing well, moving up the levels, and starts having lessons with a Pro somewhere along the line. This is where attitudes and habits are formed. And unless we are all prepared to speak up and say how outrageous it is when we see spoilt brats whipping their poor ponies around the ring at the local show (and giving them a good hiding outside the ring if they don't do well) then things are not going to change. There's sadly too much pot-hunting going on - aided and abetted by proud mummies standing by who have spent a lot of money on the right pony and later on the right horse, the right kit, and the right instructor, and they expect their kid to win. End of.

This is what needs to be tackled. Sorry to be blunt.

 

[humblepie]

I worked on a free of charge in return for lessons basis with an Olympic eventer as I was on gardening leave after being made redundant so was able to "play ponies" for a summer. He was fab. Kind to people and horses. Never saw anything that would give cause for concern. Had various over the years (though we are looking 1990s/2000s) and can't recall any issues.

 

[pistolpete]

I worked on a free of charge in return for lessons basis with an Olympic eventer as I was on gardening leave after being made redundant so was able to "play ponies" for a summer. He was fab. Kind to people and horses. Never saw anything that would give cause for concern. Had various over the years (though we are looking 1990s/2000s) and can't recall any issues.

That’s lovely to read. Thank you.

 

[SEL]

It's not just higher level professionals. I'm going to be careful on SM but "get after him with your whip" isn't an instruction I expected when having a lesson. Didn't have another.

Not hard to understand why kids end up whacking their ponies if that's the instructor's attitude.

 

[Surbie]

I've watched 2 friends in a group lesson with an Olympian. Their instruction was fine for the unproblematic combinations but both my friends were on tricky horses. I wasn't impressed with their teaching, which resulted in confused horses and frustrated riders. It wasn't violent, but it lacked patience and understanding. They told one of my friends to sell their horse as they weren't going to succeed together - a somewhat surprising conclusion to draw on the basis of just 40 minutes contact in a group situation, as well as being unwanted and unasked for.

The individual might be able to ride very effectively and has medals to show for it, but that doesn't translate to being able to teach well, which I think is a massive skill in itself.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Nicola Wilson and Gemma Tattersall were both fantastic. Nicola is kind, constructive, with an incredible eye.

My girls had a lesson with a different Olympian who was an ar$e. And very hard on horses as well as scared kids!

Outside of the elites, the pro who had Amber on schooling livery while I was recovering from a broken ankle rode her way too hard and she fought back (thatta girl!) leaving him to conclude I should sell her to him as she was 'a pros horse'. When I refused he got the hump and said she'd seriously hurt me or worse. But she was never unsafe for me to ride. She was super forward and enthusiastic but willing, calm and forgiving of my mistakes and misses. She just did not tolerate mistreatment.

I can't tell you how many instructors I have heard say 'leather him' after -say - a refusal. Or 'they need to be more scared of you than the fence'. Joe Midgley says the exact opposite: he says 'training with force works until there is something that scares the horse more than you do. When that happens you are in trouble'.

Most instructors do not train sympathetically and kindly when the chips are down ime. By that I mean they are fine when all is well, but when the horse runs into difficulties and starts not doing what is wanted/expected, almost all default to escalation of some kind, in a way that is reactive and adversarial. And I have tried A LOT. Which is why I now just use the same few all the time. In particular, Joe.

 

[pistolpete]

Even Steve Young who I’m not a fan of says pain is the worst motivation for a horse.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

A couple of weeks ago the trainer who comes to train my daughter and youngster said she had returned to coach a rider she taught to ride whilst a youngster at school and now at 18 with a show jumper , needed help. Trainer asked her to ride the horse and young person couldn’t get it to go forward so promptly went to hit it. Trainer (who hasn’t carried a whip on my youngster at all) was appalled, took whip off her (admitted to being a bit shouty) and is taking horse and rider back to basics.

 

[lottiepony]

I've been lucky in that I've never had a lesson which has left me feeling uncomfortable about training methods etc.

I do feel though that even at lower levels there is this 'need' that progress or a wow moment has to be achieved in every session which puts pressure on coaches. It is also tragic how many lame/in pain horses are out there - more often than not - at much lower levels and if you have a coach who points this out/puts the horse first then the client will either take it or more commonly move onto another coach.
I personally moved away from teaching years ago and I don't think I'd want to be doing it now. People are appallingly ignorant.

 

[poacher82]

Do you think this (below - sorry, apparently am too inept to be able to type underneath the quote?!) is why (it appears) that harsh training is more prevalent in dressage than jumping? Because dressage horses that spend their lives in an arena or stable never come across anything scarier, so the rider can get away without ever running into this trouble and they don't really need the partnership/trust? Or are we just hearing more about dressage at the moment (I really hope not)?

I can't tell you how many instructors I have heard say 'leather him' after -say - a refusal. Or 'they need to be more scared of you than the fence'. Joe Midgley says the exact opposite: he says 'training with force works until there is something that scares the horse more than you do. When that happens you are in trouble'.

 

[millitiger]

I've never had a lesson where someone has been rough with my horse or where I was made to be rough with my horse- I've been asked to do more with whip and spur than I've felt comfortable with but I will say 'no I don't think that will work'

I have worked on an eventing yard where the male pro rider was far too hard on the horses- I left after witnessing a particularly upsetting incident.
I was rung and screamed at down the phone about quitting and told this was why my riding was sh1t, because I let the horses get away with too much.
This rider is very popular and at the Olympics at the moment.

I also worked on another yard where the owner was very kind and let me have time off to go and watch the local pro eventer school his horses as she thought it would be a good experience.
It was until he leathered a horse so much that it fell over in a panic and when it got up (with him still on board) he just carried on hitting it.
It made me feel ill, I got up and walked back to our yard in the middle of the session. That pro rider came and found me and tried to explain all the reasons why he did that but it didn't wash.
That person is now involved in training youth riders.

ETA- neither are GB riders!

Both incidents happened 20 years ago when I was a teenager- I had no proof as we didn't have camera phones etc. and tbh, I was too scared to say anything to anyone official!
I also wouldn't have known who to speak to and it seemed quite normal- I felt like the odd one out for removing myself from the yards.

 

[Fieldlife]

A couple of weeks ago the trainer who comes to train my daughter and youngster said she had returned to coach a rider she taught to ride whilst a youngster at school and now at 18 with a show jumper , needed help. Trainer asked her to ride the horse and young person couldn’t get it to go forward so promptly went to hit it. Trainer (who hasn’t carried a whip on my youngster at all) was appalled, took whip off her (admitted to being a bit shouty) and is taking horse and rider back to basics.

I am going to show my ignorance. . . . The above can re read in several ways IMO.

But if I asked my (educated adult) horse** to go forwards in an arena, from a gentle leg aid and didnt get a forwards response, I would expect to need to repeat the request and then escalate, and support with a light tap with my schooling whip and potentially escalate the stick aid until I got a forward response. That said I have not known this escalate into using a stick with any force, a light reinforcing tap works, or there is something else going on.

** assuming there is no fear / pain / confusion preventing a response

 

[Fieldlife]

Do you think this (below - sorry, apparently am too inept to be able to type underneath the quote?!) is why (it appears) that harsh training is more prevalent in dressage than jumping? Because dressage horses that spend their lives in an arena or stable never come across anything scarier, so the rider can get away without ever running into this trouble and they don't really need the partnership/trust? Or are we just hearing more about dressage at the moment (I really hope not)?

No, having seen various Pros leathering green horses that are refusing new XC fences - e.g. water / ditch etc. I think it applies across all disciplines that there can be violent physical abuse.

 

[MidChristmasCrisis]

Fieldlife I agree…education and appropriate use. The trainer wouldn’t have been appalled if an appropriate response had been elicited but the young adult went to smack the horse inappropriately with a jumping crop not encourage it with a schooling whip.

 

[palo1]

I'm very out of touch generally but I do have 1-1 lessons with a pro dressage rider and stud owner. I have known her for years and she has been nothing but a kind and helpful advocate for the two horses she has helped me with. On our very first meeting she reminded me of what a privilege it was to work with a horse and how we needed to leave some expectations outside the arena.

I have had a xc lesson with an Olympian - that was ok but not terribly useful as he just laughed at my wicked little horse and told me to enjoy the rather wild ride...I have also had a disastrous lesson with a listed dressage judge and trainer that was frankly very dangerous - they did, in fact, apologies but the lack of insight or strategies to deal with the situation that occurred was shocking! They are still a popular trainer on the circuit. I have been chased round with a lunging whip too, at a xc clinic, which I very quickly removed myself from!

There are clearly no common standards really. I think, on the whole I've been quite lucky...I would not ever tolerate instructions to whip a horse to 'make' it do something.

 

[teapot]

It's not just higher level professionals. I'm going to be careful on SM but "get after him with your whip" isn't an instruction I expected when having a lesson. Didn't have another.

Not hard to understand why kids end up whacking their ponies if that's the instructor's attitude.

Agreed, some videos you see go past from tweens innocently posting on social media leave little to be desired.

 

[MagicMelon]

Not had any issues being taught by the odd well known "pro". However after I got eliminated yet again due to my horse napping in the SJ ring at a show, I stupidly let a person ride my horse in the next class - this person was an instructor herself. My horse reared a little, she pelted him so hard with a whip round the side of the head and caught him in the eye. His eye clouded over and I had to get vet treatment. He was permanently injured after that, she literally damaged his sight when in a rage that my horse had reared up on her (only a bunny hop, nothing dangerous and even if it was, you still do not hit a horse round the side of the head). This was in front of plenty of spectators. Nobody said a thing. I told her we were done and took my horse away. I was a teenager at the time, I wish Id gone mental at her and totally let my horse down.

 

[LEC]

No, the absolute cream of the crop are absolute horse people and I have had lessons with some of the best.

I think pros now are much better at having other tools to solve issues whereas in the past bullying worked fine as strong riders, but you can only bully so far and it doesn’t make a top horse in eventing or sjing.

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Ellen Whittaker posted a video on insta of her child jumping their pony. Ellen was repeatedly shouting to, "kick him in the ribs". I politely challenged her choice of words and we had an exchange about it being common parlance and not meant to convey violence but she was really nice and said she totally understood how it could come across.

 

[onemoretime]

I've never had a lesson where someone has been rough with my horse or where I was made to be rough with my horse- I've been asked to do more with whip and spur than I've felt comfortable with but I will say 'no I don't think that will work'

I have worked on an eventing yard where the male pro rider was far too hard on the horses- I left after witnessing a particularly upsetting incident.
I was rung and screamed at down the phone about quitting and told this was why my riding was sh1t, because I let the horses get away with too much.
This rider is very popular and at the Olympics at the moment.

I also worked on another yard where the owner was very kind and let me have time off to go and watch the local pro eventer school his horses as she thought it would be a good experience.
It was until he leathered a horse so much that it fell over in a panic and when it got up (with him still on board) he just carried on hitting it.
It made me feel ill, I got up and walked back to our yard in the middle of the session. That pro rider came and found me and tried to explain all the reasons why he did that but it didn't wash.
That person is now involved in training youth riders.

ETA- neither are GB riders!

Both incidents happened 20 years ago when I was a teenager- I had no proof as we didn't have camera phones etc. and tbh, I was too scared to say anything to anyone official!
I also wouldn't have known who to speak to and it seemed quite normal- I felt like the odd one out for removing myself from the yards.

Christ that sounds dreadful especially for a young person to witness but Im not surprised. Did you tell the lady you were working for?

 

[millitiger]

@onemoretime yes I did.
It meant I didn't go and watch him 'school' anymore but she didn't bring it up directly with him.

 

[JGC]

I saw awful riding by a "high-level" trainer once - I complained to his employer, a horse charity and tried to get the police interested, but it was before the days of mobile phones with cameras, so basically my word against his. He got his comeuppance eventually, fortunately, and no longer works with horses.

I had a lot of clinics and lessons over the years with a rider who had finished top 10 in the World Cup. She is the most sympathetic and kind trainer I've ever been to. She was absolutely on saddle fit, health of horse, taking lots of breaks and never pressured the horses. Hands were forward and light never ever pulling. Never anything like draw reins - at her home stables, I never even saw anything but snaffles and doubles in the tack room (which were used on the horses who were at the level it was mandatory). She took all horses as they came - she taught riders on ponies, warmbloods, PRE the same. My horse at the time was an absolute cut-and-shut model and she never said a word about her physical attributes and was as enthusiastic about her progress as any of her couples competing advanced. So positive and encouraging with riders and would teach anyone who truly wanted to learn.

I am clinging on to this experience at the moment. There was a point last week when I thought, I can't even condone riding at all anymore, let alone competing dressage, but that seems to have passed again for the moment.

 

[barefootbeginner]

Whilst not a higher profile rider being violent per se, I have watched a lesson after mine with an extremely high profile event rider (let's call them A) teaching a more advanced group including a local trainer who holds clinics (I'd say mostly for grassroots level riders) at many local venues (let's call them B). Their (B's) horse started refusing and they were, after building in severity up to this point, truly beating their horse with a whip, time and again, with the horse getting ever more distressed - without a doubt "violent". Whilst the coach (A) didn't encourage it, and took the fence down to tiny to give the horse a better experience, which worked, it made me think of the politics at this level - they also didn't challenge the rider (B), ask them to stop hitting the horse oe. The rider (B) would come across as lovely, and I'm sure their own students would think it impossible for such behaviour to be shown by this trainer. The coach that day (A) from everything I've understood of them (extensive) would not have this method of training in their own system, and in no way "participated" in this happening in their lesson, but ultimately had I been videoing, it would likely have shown a rider (B) for all intents and purposes beating up their scared horse with them (A) in the shot clearly as the coach - certainly interesting territory we're in with regards to "all that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing" (Edmund Burke).

 

[Maddie Moo]

As a 16 year old working pupil at a well known riding school and competition yard, the pony I was riding was napping. I was told to smack him. As this was unusual for him (he’d never done it before when I’d ridden him…), As I meekly suggested he might be in pain, I was told to “not be so stupid”. I was told to dismount, the next thing I know, the instructor starts beating the pony was a lunge whip. I was so shocked, I didn’t say anything! Then I was told to remount and “hit him until he moves”. I declined and another WP was sourced to take over.

Another time, I walked past the indoor arena in the evening after lessons had completed and saw one of the staff members repeatedly whipping a horse (using proper back handers), as the horse reared near the edge of the school boards.

I was too scared to report them and I didn’t have any evidence, but I’ve always regretted it. Especially as this was a well respected, BHS approved training centre. I only last a couple of months, initially I never saw anything like that put it started to become apparent after a few weeks how the horses were really treated.

 

[Barklands]

I have had coaching from various top professionals in dressage and eventing.

All bar have been super, really sympathetic and understanding of the horses. Nothing untoward, in fact I had a horse who was a little backwards from previous training, trainer followed with lunge whip and was quite the opposite to the CDJ video. Just trailed the whip behind for a little encouragement as just wasn’t quite responded to the leg aid. Only required a couple of times and he got the idea.

I was based with an eventer for a while who rides at the top level - horses treated like kings, never pushed beyond their limits, I would trust them with any of mine.

Maybe I have just been lucky but I would like to think that the vast majority of professionals treat their horses with the respect and care they deserve.

 

[DressageCob]

I ride regularly with an Olympic dressage rider (he's not in Paris but is GB). Not once has he been harsh towards my horse, nor encouraged me to be harsh. In fact, he's never blamed my horse for anything not quite coming off; it's always clear that I need to be better so my horse can do it, which I think is right. He's a really nice guy and the lessons are fun. I have no complaints.

I've also had a few lessons with another Olympic dressage rider. He was also very kind and understanding, didn't say or do anything which anyone could complain about as being too harsh, violent etc.

I had an XC lesson with an Olympic eventer once as well, a few years ago now. He wasn't too tough either, he was just completely disinterested. the lesson consisted of him pointing out jumps and saying "do that one" Blooming expensive lesson it was too. Still, we got a nice photo of him towering above my little horse afterwards.

 

[Pointless1]

No, the absolute cream of the crop are absolute horse people and I have had lessons with some of the best.

I think pros now are much better at having other tools to solve issues whereas in the past bullying worked fine as strong riders, but you can only bully so far and it doesn’t make a top horse in eventing or sjing.

Sadly, it seems in the case we are all talking about now, it seems the cream of the crop ie CD does not have other tools!

 

[j1ffy]

I commented on the other thread about this. I had lessons with Becky Moody at a BD camp a couple of years ago and she was excellent - very horse friendly, very skilled with all levels of rider / type of horse and also good fun. She really simplified dressage. I watched her lessons with lots of the other campers and the experience was consistent (whereas the Paralympian teaching at the other end of the school seemed mostly disinterested unless she was teaching para-dressage riders with team potential!).