Lets create a solution

Would you support a charity who promoted PTS as an option?


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Fides

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After receiving a lot of backlash from some people for this thread

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...f-rescuing-them-(a-diary)&highlight=Meat+colt

This thread was created

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?671177-Rescuers-create-horses-that-need-rescued

In it a lot of people said I did the wrong thing, but none of those people offered any real solution (only criticism).

There were a few - _GG_, Pennyturner and Alec in particular who offered ideas that could help solve the horse crisis, if we could only get it off the ground.

So I am starting this thread to put out feelers to see just how much support I would get if I seriously took this idea and ran with it...

The proposal:

If there was a charity set up specifically aimed at those horses who have no value as riding horses, with the aim being to humanely euthanise them to free up more space for those animals who are likely to be able to be rehomed. It is a sickening idea, but it needs doing. For the following reasons:

1) There are far too many horses/ponies in charities that are suitable only as companions - there are more companions than companion homes available
2) Horses with health issues (field sound on a Bute a day IMO is not sound) take up space for the abused to be rehabilitated.
3) There are colts that are sent for meat that are not bought due to being too weedy/infected to be of any value even as pet food. What is the future op for these? Being dumped?
4) Circumstances change and what happens to the horses that the owners can't afford to PTS due to the costs of the deed and also disposal. Charities sometimes take them but then that's taking up spaces and resources for 'true' rescues.

So what can we do?

- Can we set up a body offering help with disposal costs?
- Can this be linked to a hunt/zoo/pet food manufacturers to generate income to help with this
- Can we offer to help charities 'do the unpopular thing'? To free up space for others?
- Can we set this up to be means tested so that those in genuine need can get assistance, but others only a contribution?
- Can we stop abuse of the system? What is stopping someone 'getting rid' of a horse this way to make room for another?
- Can we set up a body that could lobby parliament/the queen for the Royal approval to gain powers of seizure and prosecution, currently only held by the RSPCA?
- Can we offer support to struggling charities/hoarders?
- Can we get vets on board to offer discount castration to charities and maybe even reputable breeders or individuals to increase the 'value' of the colts? And what about rigs and the cost in resolving this - should they be an automatic PTS?
- Can we apply for government grants for assistance?
- Can we apply for lottery funding?

More to the point - would this have the organisation vilified as 'pony killers'?

It would be a mammoth undertaking, but one which I would be happy to get involved with nor even lead.

I have helped rehabilitate rescues in the truest sense of the word - giving the horse a trust and purpose that allows a secure future. I have fostered. I have been refused a rescue due to my home being 'unsuitable'. I have homed a colt destined for meat. Can I now, with the support of other tackle the root cause of the problem? These low value animals who block up the market and generate so many cases of abuse.

So the question is a simple 'yay' or 'neigh' - would you honestly support a charity who supported, or even encouraged PTS of horses/ponies with no ridden future? This is very black and white - there is no maybe...
 
IMHO I wonder if the whole passport/microchip system needs a jolly good sort-out, i.e. it needs to be enforced properly & anything without a microchip & passport is PTS automatically? Then it wouldn't be worth anyone's while to mass-produce low value horses if the whole lot could be seized & shot? But this would require a proper joined-up system & proper enforcement. And an organisation happy to seize, PTS & not mess about so that people realise that it's no longer worth breeding indiscriminately.

T x
 
IMHO I wonder if the whole passport/microchip system needs a jolly good sort-out, i.e. it needs to be enforced properly & anything without a microchip & passport is PTS automatically? Then it wouldn't be worth anyone's while to mass-produce low value horses if the whole lot could be seized & shot? But this would require a proper joined-up system & proper enforcement. And an organisation happy to seize, PTS & not mess about so that people realise that it's no longer worth breeding indiscriminately.

T x

I think you are getting into very dodgy ground by wanting to set up a charity with the power to seize other peoples horses and shoot them no matter what the initial intentions are, I can forsee all kinds of problems with this let alone trying to get charitable status or anyone willing to donate to such a cause.
 
I'd support a charity that euthanases the owners rather than the horses.

It's about time that the purchase price of any horse included a pre purchase fee for euthanasia. Its about time that people were educated about the realities of horse ownership. If you buy a horse for pleasure, rather than your liveihood, then the owner should be responsible for ensuring its future as long as it is healthy and pain free.
Animals are living beings, not to be got rid of when the owner is bored or wants to spend their time and money on something else.

No I would not support a charity that encourages irresponsible people.
 
Yeah, maybe you're right. But while people can happily ignore the 'regime' currently in place, without any consequences whatsoever, then it's going to be hard to do much about the over-supply. And does something with no passport or chip really have an owner?

(And I s'pose it's all well & good me being brave from behind my keyboard about PTS low end, when I'm in possession of 2 field ornaments, including an ex-racer...)

T x

(ETA... in reply to Bonny)
 
If some of the established charities would consider PTS as an option, as opposed to letting an animal live in pain and with no real hope of a proper life, then so many more could be helped. Realistically there are simply too many horses and ponies in the UK at the moment and radical measures need to be taken to solve this dilemma.

I believe many people confuse euthanasia with the happenings at the Red Lion 12 months ago and this has geatly coloured their judgement on the issue. So, education is needed on that score.

I still think though that a real lasting solution has to begn at source, ie the indiscriminate breeding of scrub ponies.
 
I think you are getting into very dodgy ground by wanting to set up a charity with the power to seize other peoples horses and shoot them no matter what the initial intentions are, I can forsee all kinds of problems with this let alone trying to get charitable status or anyone willing to donate to such a cause.

True. It's easy and fully understandable to have those thoughts as the mind can wander to all sorts of places when thinking of these things.

The truth is, any charity set up in this vein would need extensive and serious thought and consideration. I would advise at least a 6 month pre-planning period where any trustees would meet once a month for a round table discussion and at each, it would be beneficial to have people from various external groups.

The biggest key would be to involve executives from pro life charities. They will never support PTS as an option, but if handled correctly, statements could be gained from them publicly acknowledging the need for such work to be undertaken and that would be half of the battle won in terms of public perception.

It's all about education, so I would suggest voluntary associates in each area, willing to run information evenings in order to advise the local community on the true face of the welfare crisis in order to further gain the understanding of the public. It almost has to happen before any work could be undertaken.

I would suggest here that you'd be looking at 2-3 years of foundation work before it could be up and running, such would be the need for proper understanding and support.

I'm in...but it would need to be done in the right way from the start.
 
If the fully funded authorities actually carried out the LAW regarding equines, in respect of passports, chipping - and welfare, then part of this currrent crisis could ebb quite swiftly.

Courts & Councils applying law to those who fly-graze (what a ridiculous term, why not call it squatting, as thats what it is) with given timescales & definate 'lift and destroy' terms would show over-zealous prolific owners what regulations would mean.

A cull of equines for those 'owners' who did not confirm within xyz time, would cap a lot of welfare off.

So, perhaps DEFRA and then the local council with their animal welfare officers should be lobbied?
 
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I'd support a charity that euthanases the owners rather than the horses.

It's about time that the purchase price of any horse included a pre purchase fee for euthanasia. Its about time that people were educated about the realities of horse ownership. If you buy a horse for pleasure, rather than your liveihood, then the owner should be responsible for ensuring its future as long as it is healthy and pain free.
Animals are living beings, not to be got rid of when the owner is bored or wants to spend their time and money on something else.

No I would not support a charity that encourages irresponsible people.

It's not just pleasure buyers, it's breeders too. Also, not every horse needing to be rehomed or put to sleep is in that position because a person is bored or wants to spend their time and money on something else.

Do I want to see horses put to sleep, no. I've seen enough for a lifetime, but I am fully aware that it is better fate than abandonment.

If some of the established charities would consider PTS as an option, as opposed to letting an animal live in pain and with no real hope of a proper life, then so many more could be helped. Realistically there are simply too many horses and ponies in the UK at the moment and radical measures need to be taken to solve this dilemma.

I believe many people confuse euthanasia with the happenings at the Red Lion 12 months ago and this has geatly coloured their judgement on the issue. So, education is needed on that score.

I still think though that a real lasting solution has to begn at source, ie the indiscriminate breeding of scrub ponies.


Many charities do put to sleep. It's just not an often used option as it would damage the reputation and fundraising potential. That's not a criticism of the charities by the way. I applaud most of the work they do.
 
For me, education needs to play a big part. Lots and lots of people just don't realise or understand the crisis we are in the middle of right now.

We need to deal with the thousands of equines currently suffering at the hands of unscrupulous 'breeders'. Unfortunately, I believe the best way would be a cull. This would need to be government led and I would support an organisation who lobbied government to achieve this and any organisation(s) which carried out the thankless task.

Also, for the long term, I feel an organisation which holds and manages a centralised database of all equines is imperative. There should be one passport issuing office. Owners should be able to produce documentation as proof of ownership.

People should be educated about the problems caused by over breeding their equines and be held fully accountable. There should be consequences for treating animals in the way many are currently being treated. People also need to understand the true costs involved in purchasing a horse from an unscrupulous breeder, not only from a monetary perspective for them but also from the pov of encouraging the breeder to continue.

Not concrete solutions atm but certainly aims of where we should be headed.
 
I've been following on both of the other threads. I do agree with subsidised euthanasia where owners cannot fund the cost of a vet and/or slaughterman and disposal, and also a lot of what the OP has said; but I'm not sure that setting up another charity would work, it could well, as OP pointed out be seen as a load of 'pony killers' and could lead to repurcussions of a nasty nature.

The lobbying of existing charities and government might be the way to go, to persuade the existing charities to offer this option, so that people don't just dump their oldies or unrideables, and to get the government to sit up and make those who should enforce the law do so with regard to fly grazing, microchipping and passports. Would an online petition be any use, addressed to charities and the government or would that be considered too wishy washy and ineffective?
 
I'm game but the last time I got involved (in the Franch days) it didn't make me think too highly of the group involved.

I think you/we need to think of the following:
1. What is your aim?
2. How will you achieve this aim - your objectives?
3. What resources, financial, human or other do you envisage needing.
4. Are there any established bodies/charities/groups with similar aims? If so would it be better to add support to them, or go it alone?
5. What timescale would be required?
6. What would 'success' look like?

Apologies for typos - my iPad is possessed by the Devil.
S :)
 
Don't people have horses as pets anymore, a horse that's on bute and in a field can still be ridden it doesn't have to be pts. Medication is available for a reason. Even if it can't be ridden where's the emotion gone in horse ownership. Riding is just a small part of daily life with horses.
 
Don't people have horses as pets anymore, a horse that's on bute and in a field can still be ridden it doesn't have to be pts. Medication is available for a reason. Even if it can't be ridden where's the emotion gone in horse ownership. Riding is just a small part of daily life with horses.

Yes people do with their much loved horses - but these horses in a charity, who is going to take these on when there are sound healthy horses, equally as able to be a companion/pet.

Eta - let's not get into the ethics of Bute to ride and Bute to be field sound, that's a whole other issue and not necessarily something I agree with.
 
This would create a problem IMO. The very people who are 'rescuing'/funding the breeders would be in uproar at a charity 'killing healthy horses' thus more rescuing.
It has to be tackled at some point although the government is oblivious, the thought of a bad winter fills me with fear! Fly grazing needs tackling-If they had to pay rent for land, maintain it and could be traced a few might drop out of the game.

Eduction is key in all of this.
 
Shils - what is Franch? It's before my day ;)

Hmmm. It was to do with the import of French meat horses which were being 'rescued' for vast amounts of cash by novice numpties whose kindness overcame their common-sense, encouraged by a group of savvy dealers (sorry, rescue charities) and of course the French farmers who were delighted to find a new and more lucrative market for the meat-bred horses, and gleefully invested the profits into increased production.
Sound familiar? ;)
S :)
 
I think that the BHS could be very influential here, they already have the 'friends at the end' scheme and that could possibly be extended to fund those who are struggling. It would have to be strictly monitored though and possibly only allowed once per owner to prevent people pts and then going straight out and replacing the horse on a regular basis. There are free castration and vaccination clinics held for some in my area, so it could possibly be an extension of this?
I do think that there would be an outcry from some of the public, so as others have said, education is imperative. I'd also like to see it tackled from the opposite end and licensing brought in for stallions.
 
........

I think you/we need to think of the following:
1. What is your aim?
2. How will you achieve this aim - your objectives?
3. What resources, financial, human or other do you envisage needing.
4. Are there any established bodies/charities/groups with similar aims? If so would it be better to add support to them, or go it alone?
5. What timescale would be required?
6. What would 'success' look like?

.........
S :)

Fides et al, address the questions above, and your plans 'may' be given a degree of credence. As I see it, your planned for group would need to give serious thought to the realities, and initially, I'd suggest that you consider the possibly three diverging and separate directions for your Charity to follow;

1. That your aims would be achieved by legislation.
2. That a charitable welfare trust would be set up which supported, financially, the humane destruction of horses.
3. That with an end carcass use, be it for human consumption, or pet food, then there will be a commercial aspect.

I'm tempted to continue but would prefer to hear of the views of you all, before doing so.

Alec.

ps, I currently have an open mind, and obviously(!), have clear thoughts, but again, would prefer to read firstly, what others think.

Those amongst us who would prefer to euthanase those owners who are irresponsible breeders, really wont have much of any value to contribute, I fear! a.
 
Perhaps I'm not really understanding the concept here with my comments below?

To PTS the masses of horses that serve no purpose you would need to be able to seize these horses from their owner by law, then by law have them destroyed. BIG can of worms.

Alternatively you need the owners consent. I would imagine the number of people who genuinely wanted their animal destroyed but did not have the financial means to do it would actually be comparatively small.

Why would the low life dealers/breeders want to euthanise their animals? Their stock would then be worth zero rather than £50/100/200 or whatever as meat or flogged to some do-good'r

What you are proposing is so vast and integrates so many parties that a small, newly formed charity isn't going to have an impact on the problem.

Certainly a service to the minority, regarding straightforward euthanasia network for owners in financial trouble, but for the bigger vision you would need to really work under the umberella of BHS welfare (or similar ) and we are talking years of work/planning.
 
ihatework,

paras;

1. Legislation isn't a consideration (I hope)!

2. There would be an offer, an alternative which would be placed before owners.

3. A valid point.

4. Accepted.

5. None of the established equine welfare charities want an end to the problem. No horses in need, so no charities! Stands to reason, when you think about it!

You seem to have grasped the concept, but only in part!

Alec.
 
Just need to say the police have the seizure powers the RSPCA has no more right to seize a horse than I do .

This is how I would set about alleviating some of the issues we face.
1 . The prosecution of animal welfare cases to be done by the CPS and investigated by the police the RSPCA could assist if they chose and provide expert support for the police if they wished .
2 . Robust and I mean robust powers for local authorities to deal with fly grazing this is a biggy get this under control and it will make a difference .
3. I live a long way from Wales and the other places where there are problems with semi feral hill ponies so can't offer insights on that but breeding needs to restricted it would be interesting to see the insights of members in these areas .
4. Bludgeon into out brains at every level everyone does not have the right to own a horse if you can't afford to care for and pay to euthanise your own horse you ought not have one .
We are too shy at saying this we don't think everyone has the right to a speedboat so why are shy about saying the same about horses .
5. Sort and enforce the licensing of livery yards this will raise costs of running yards but it needs doing .I think that three liverys without license ( similar to a B and B ) more than that licence and I would include the offering of grazing only in this .
That's a few thoughts of the top of my head .
 
Im sick of seeing charities exploit the poor animals for their gain (publicity) spend thousands on care, then cry poverty come winter, something needs to be done!
If more of the sick and injured were destroyed, healthy, safe animals would be in, and out of rescues, solving part of the problem.
 
6. Oh yes the charity commission to tighten up on the charitable status of animal charities , more priority in dealing with under the counter pseudo charities .
 
I just can't see that this will help the big problem of indiscriminate breeding of poor quality horses. It might help individual owners who have a lame or ill horse and don't have the money to PTS or who simply can't afford to keep it any longer but it would seem to be that these numbers would be a drop in the ocean against the 'breeders' churning out gypsy cobs in the thousands.

I voted no to the poll as for me a horse which cannot be ridden (but which is not in pain) has as much worth as any other horse in terms of being alive and I don't believe we have the right to end that life just because the horse can't be ridden.

The problem needs to be tackled at the root i.e. the breeders to stop them breeding so many horses but how this is achieved I have no idea I'm afraid.
 
The poll says do would you support a charity who supported PTS as an option.
I am pretty sure every uk charity I ever worked along side support PTS in certain circumstances .
You really need to define it a bit more .
There's very few people in the UK who would never support PTS as an option .
 
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