Lets create a solution

[cbmcts]

I think this is a fantastic, very worthwhile idea but I agree that an actual physical standalone charity would be very difficult to set up and even harder to fund due to public perception of the 'brutality' of killing horses.

Working with an established charity that already is open to the idea of PTS would maybe educate the wider non horsey public that it is a valid option? Allowing them to actually show that there is real support for this option.

There is also a real need to campaign to force the authorities to actually apply the animal welfare laws that are in place - I know that it is a difficult economy at the moment and yes it will cost money but you know, there is a huge amount of tax money already wasted - and some things, like how we allow the vulnerable in society to be treated need to be prioritised.

This doesn't come naturally to me as by nature, I'm conservative with a small c but I really think it is time that horse owners are regulated and that these regulations are enforced...done properly I believe they could become cost neutral (sorry I hate that phrase) after the initial funding to set it up was applied.

THere's no easy answer to this problem and there will be pros and cons to any scheme (plus hard luck stories and the rest) but as a so called first world nation it isn't acceptable to carry on as is IMO.

 

[Dry Rot]

Possibly I am a hard hearted cynical farmer but I do not regard death with the horror that the general public obvious have for it. It is where all living things end up sooner or later and, provided the passing is humane, it makes no difference to the animal if it is sooner. For sure, it may have missed out on a very happy and contented life, but you can't miss what you've never had. I just wish there was a similar charity for humans as I would put my name down in an instants, I just don't want to go at the moment.D:

So, yes, I would contribute to a charity that offered cheap/subsidised euthanasia for horses -- dogs and cats too..

How this is to be done is a completely different matter. I did at one time believe that some sort of charity was needed for genuine working dogs (i.e. those contributing to the economy through their work) as not only the dogs were disappearing but the skills to train them. When I started to do something about it I realised that I could never deal with the nuts who emerge from the woodwork wanting to run this sort of thing! No reflection on people here (who I obviously don't know), but these sort of organisations do seem to attract the Captain Mannering type! Sorry!

As for the enforcers, all I can say is that it takes a lot of rude letters and the intervention of an MP or two to get DEFRA to do what they are required to do by law now, so how you get them to do a whole lot more is beyond me. Will they really be on their hands and knees wandering the hills and fells checking to see if semi feral ponies own an intact pair of testicles? Some how, I doubt it.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

a charity that would PTS any type of animal will any significant health issues would have my full support

Ditto....add to that unresolveable behavioural issues too...........also look at some that can be donated to the blood bank through the charity if the are suitable. I know one or two that would be good, feild sound on no meds but can't be ridden due to either freaking out with tack on or ligament damage but no pain.

 

[Alec Swan]

a charity that would PTS any type of animal will any significant health issues would have my full support

Ditto....add to that unresolveable behavioural issues too...........also look at some that can be donated to the blood bank through the charity if the are suitable. I know one or two that would be good, feild sound on no meds but can't be ridden due to either freaking out with tack on or ligament damage but no pain.

How would you feel about those horses which whilst sound, are of neither use nor ornament, and are simply unwanted. What would you suggest would be in store for them? When answering, please don't barrack the breeders, that's pointless as the horses are here and now, offer a sensible solution to these horse's futures.

Alec.

 

[JCW]

To me the root of the problem is indiscriminate breeding. If there is some kind of expensive registration charge that the breeder has to pay per foal bred eg £500 and this was strictly enforced, would this help? Therefore there will be no money to be made in breeding horses that could only be sold for £50. Does that make sense? Any reputable breeder would recoup the £500 when they sold their well bred horse on.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

Further to my earlier post ref DEFRA, could/should BHS members lobby the BHS to get DEFRA to enforce current regs?


This would help a great deal in the long term, then penalties could be applied swiftly and firmly

 

[Slightlyconfused]

How would you feel about those horses which whilst sound, are of neither use nor ornament, and are simply unwanted. What would you suggest would be in store for them? When answering, please don't barrack the breeders, that's pointless as the horses are here and now, offer a sensible solution to these horse's futures.

Alec.

If they can't be found a use, like the blood bank, even youngster babysitting as a friend did with her unwanted horse when she gave up. Though she went to a proper stud not a small breeder. I would pts. There are fates worse than that for them.


I have no problem with breeders, I have brought my last three from a small local breeder. What I have a problem with is breeding from unsuitable horses. But that's another thread and can of worms.

 

[Flame_]

They could ban riding. No riding, no disappointed people when horse fails to live up to the dream and turns out a useless money pit that's going to live for another 20 years.

Its a very unhappy solution for those of us that have horses because we want to ride them, but it is the solution.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Ditto....add to that unresolveable behavioural issues too...........also look at some that can be donated to the blood bank through the charity if the are suitable. I know one or two that would be good, feild sound on no meds but can't be ridden due to either freaking out with tack on or ligament damage but no pain.

and then where would private owners, wanting to pass on their unsuitable horses pass them on to? bloodbanks are not charities, they are businesses and their business is farming horses for blood. There is a finite market for horse blood and one can only assume they have enough horses for that market-they won't be paying for a horse to have ad lib haylage in the winter if they aren't required.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

and then where would private owners, wanting to pass on their unsuitable horses pass them on to? bloodbanks are not charities, they are businesses and their business is farming horses for blood. There is a finite market for horse blood and one can only assume they have enough horses for that market-they won't be paying for a horse to have ad lib haylage in the winter if they aren't required.

If you saw I said if they are suitable, at some point the bold bank will need to replace older horses that can no longer do there job and are pts......so then my suggestion has merit. I didn't even know the blood back existed until I read a thread in here a few years ago.

I have no problem pts a fit heathly horse if their future suddenly became uncertain.

 

[MerrySherryRider]

A charity that gets rid of 'useless' horses for free would be a godsend to people who should never own horses. Get rid of any horse you don't want to feed over winter for free and then start again in the spring. Wonderful.

The reason the RSPCA has to pick up the pieces for horses and prosecute the feckless owners is because the CPS and government has no interest in animal welfare. It'd be great if charity funds could be used for rehoming horses who's owners genuinely fall on hard times, but until animal welfare is taken seriously in this country, which rates as one of the wealthiest in the world, horses will continue to suffer.
If charities get rid of the unwanted surplus, it will just continue the cycle for more irresponsible breeding and ownership. The problem can only be tackled at the point of breeding. There is no instant solution.

 

[Goldenstar]

They could ban riding. No riding, no disappointed people when horse fails to live up to the dream and turns out a useless money pit that's going to live for another 20 years.

Its a very unhappy solution for those of us that have horses because we want to ride them, but it is the solution.

This is a fair point .
It's like the road safety issue - want no horse related RTAs simple ban them from the roads job done .

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

I would like to be involved in such a charity in principal. However I think it's down to education more than anything else. If we could do a serious education campaign to get joe public to truly understand the importance of a cull etc then I feel this could be the way to go.
It's a shame our charities don't have the same prosecution powers etc that they do in America x

 

[Goldenstar]

I would like to be involved in such a charity in principal. However I think it's down to education more than anything else. If we could do a serious education campaign to get joe public to truly understand the importance of a cull etc then I feel this could be the way to go.
It's a shame our charities don't have the same prosecution powers etc that they do in America x

I think charities prosecuting is a huge part of the issue .
We don't expect the NSPCC to prosecute child abusers .
America is no example to follow in this area IME their welfare issues are mega.

 

[Clare85]

If charities get rid of the unwanted surplus, it will just continue the cycle for more irresponsible breeding and ownership. The problem can only be tackled at the point of breeding. There is no instant solution.

The huge amount of indiscriminately bred horses are here because the people who breed them can make money. £50 per animal may not sound like much, but when they have hundreds to get rid of, whilst incurring little if any costs, they can make decent money.

If these animals were seized and the owners could make no profit from them, they would be discouraged from allowing such large numbers to multiply.

 

[Cherryade]

The huge amount of indiscriminately bred horses are here because the people who breed them can make money. £50 per animal may not sound like much, but when they have hundreds to get rid of, whilst incurring little if any costs, they can make decent money.

If these animals were seized and the owners could make no profit from them, they would be discouraged from allowing such large numbers to multiply.

You cannot legally seize someone else's horses unless of course theirs a welfare issue or grazing illegally. If people stopped buying them they would soon stop breeding and move onto the next money making scheme. How long is it before enough is enough and everyone is full, theres only a certain number of horses people can accommodate

 

[_GG_]

There's a reason I said in the other thread that whilst I would like to and intend to do something, I expect I will take 2 years or so to do enough research and gain enough knowledge and that is despite many years working in welfare.

If an onion has layers, then this issue is comparable to a hundred onions on a genetically modified giant onion trial!!!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I haven't read all the replies but I would certainly support the existing charities if they decided to instigate a policy of PTS all the equines that they have who are only suitable as companions. I have kept 'field ornaments' myself and think that it is up to individual owners what they do with their own animals as they come to the end of their working lives but don't see how charities can justify keeping/
rehoming companion only animals when there are animals capable of being ridden/driven which are having to be pts because their owners can no longer keep them, or find a charity to take them.
I think the first step to eradicating the over-population of poorly bred horses is for EVERY entire male horse over the age of 2 to have to be licensed. There are far too many poorly bred males with poor conformation being allowed to breed and far too many numpties keeping males entire without being able to deal with them properly.
There should certainly be one passport-issuing office, with a system which is monitored .properly and where the passport is proof of ownership

 

[Marydoll]

Perhaps I'm not really understanding the concept here with my comments below?

To PTS the masses of horses that serve no purpose you would need to be able to seize these horses from their owner by law, then by law have them destroyed. BIG can of worms.

Alternatively you need the owners consent. I would imagine the number of people who genuinely wanted their animal destroyed but did not have the financial means to do it would actually be comparatively small.

Why would the low life dealers/breeders want to euthanise their animals? Their stock would then be worth zero rather than £50/100/200 or whatever as meat or flogged to some do-good'r

What you are proposing is so vast and integrates so many parties that a small, newly formed charity isn't going to have an impact on the problem.

Certainly a service to the minority, regarding straightforward euthanasia network for owners in financial trouble, but for the bigger vision you would need to really work under the umberella of BHS welfare (or similar ) and we are talking years of work/planning.

Ive got 2 field ornaments who are retired, i choose to keep them in their retirement, they are well cared fir and loved, what gives anyone the right to think they should be able to seize and destroy mine or anyone elses horses, not a "charity" i'd be supporting ..... Id be waiting with a baseball bat for them !

 

[siennamum]

Further to my earlier post ref DEFRA, could/should BHS members lobby the BHS to get DEFRA to enforce current regs?


This would help a great deal in the long term, then penalties could be applied swiftly and firmly

this is in line with my thinking. I get very frustrated at the impact on law abiding horse owners of schemes like these BUT I think the answer is for the authorities that have the power to do something about this issue to act.

My farmer friends can track the location/status of hundreds of cattle. We need horses to have the same protection - even to the point of ear tagging so that unregistered animals are immediately identifiable and can be simply confiscated on the spot & the owner prosecuted.

 

[snowstormII]

I just can't see that this will help the big problem of indiscriminate breeding of poor quality horses. It might help individual owners who have a lame or ill horse and don't have the money to PTS or who simply can't afford to keep it any longer but it would seem to be that these numbers would be a drop in the ocean against the 'breeders' churning out gypsy cobs in the thousands.

I voted no to the poll as for me a horse which cannot be ridden (but which is not in pain) has as much worth as any other horse in terms of being alive and I don't believe we have the right to end that life just because the horse can't be ridden.

The problem needs to be tackled at the root i.e. the breeders to stop them breeding so many horses but how this is achieved I have no idea I'm afraid.

I agree with above. How about coming at it from a slightly other angle? The worthless scrub-bred colts come out of the mares these people have. If we could somehow cut off the supply of rough bred equine wombs, we would surely restrict the supply of said unwanted £50 colts.

How do other countries manage their over breeding? I genuinely need to be educated on this. Do they insist on all breeding mares being licenced with the power to seize and destroy those that are not. I suspect in our country it would need to be so tight and specific a law, as the people it will mostly be aimed at know how to manipulate our laws and may just shift their huge operations to another country, possibly.

or how about campaigning for horse meat farms to be set up here but that they must be deadstock before they are shipped abroad.

I still can't quite grasp why a single agency issuing passports and listing all the horses in Britain can't be set up and empowered. I believe there is such a thing for cloven hooved creatures (I remember it feeling like I had an authority breathing down my neck all the time I had goats!) Any transgressions and your horse automatically gets seized and destroyed. That should focus the minds a bit!!

 

[snowstormII]

A charity that gets rid of 'useless' horses for free would be a godsend to people who should never own horses. Get rid of any horse you don't want to feed over winter for free and then start again in the spring. Wonderful.

The reason the RSPCA has to pick up the pieces for horses and prosecute the feckless owners is because the CPS and government has no interest in animal welfare. It'd be great if charity funds could be used for rehoming horses who's owners genuinely fall on hard times, but until animal welfare is taken seriously in this country, which rates as one of the wealthiest in the world, horses will continue to suffer.
If charities get rid of the unwanted surplus, it will just continue the cycle for more irresponsible breeding and ownership. The problem can only be tackled at the point of breeding. There is no instant solution.

I agree.

 

[Alec Swan]

........ The problem can only be tackled at the point of breeding. ........

And just how would you propose doing that?

.......

It's a shame our charities don't have the same prosecution powers etc that they do in America x

The one small and niggling point which you appear to have overlooked, is that the charities have no interest in Justice, and justice is the very reson-detre of our Courts.

Alec.

 

[NZJenny]

Have been reading this thread with interest, because we really don't have this problem (or at least to this extent) in NZ, and then SnowstormII asked the question.

Am not sure I have the complete answer, but there are a couple of things I can pick up on. The first is "fly grazing", this just doesn't exist here. Any land that is not privately owned and being farmed, is pretty much National Park and horses are banned from them.

The second thing is that there is no meat market here. We are too far from Europe and quite keen on people buying lamb and beef instead. Cull horses are used for pet food only. I only know of one abattoir that ever processed horse meat for human consumption (and export), but it was only around for a couple of years.

Maybe it's a culture thing, certainly sounds like it's a money thing.

As for a charity that PTS - yes. There have been a couple of major welfare cases here, and I was appalled at the amount of money that was spent on saving horses that were never going to be anything but paddock ornaments. We then here from said organisations, that they can't prosecute every case because they don't have enough money to follow up. Hmmm.

 

[Fides]

Ive got 2 field ornaments who are retired, i choose to keep them in their retirement, they are well cared fir and loved, what gives anyone the right to think they should be able to seize and destroy mine or anyone elses horses, not a "charity" i'd be supporting ..... Id be waiting with a baseball bat for them !

No one has suggested seizing companion animals

 

[Alec Swan]

No one has suggested seizing companion animals

Indeed, what's being proposed is a facility which is on offer to those with horses which for what ever reason, they need to but are unable, to dispose of humanely.

Alec.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

My farmer friends can track the location/status of hundreds of cattle. We need horses to have the same protection - even to the point of ear tagging so that unregistered animals are immediately identifiable and can be simply confiscated on the spot & the owner prosecuted.

I would fight ear tagging in horses and I work with sheep, so not unfamiliar with them. Tagging was considered for Exmoor ponies when people were wanting branding banned and it was disregarded by the panel of vets etc as a welfare issue for horses. Their behaviour (mutual grooming etc) is very different to sheep and cattle.

 

[Dry Rot]

If you want to limit something, tax it.

The Kennel Club effectively does that with pedigree dogs by charging excessive fees for things like registration.

Of course, breeders then think up ways of tax avoidance, like promoting crossbreeds.

 

[AmyMay]

Deleted

 

[Goldenstar]

It is not the british way to impose the weight of the state on those quietly enjoying a harmless pastime.
It is not the british way to frame a law in such a way that it might be used to interfere with the quiet enjoyment of an individual keeping a small group of companion equines .
It's difficult to frame a law tightly in our common law system it's difficult to forsee where case law can take things .
The cost of the onerous regulation that would have to considered to control the breeding problem from a passporting regulation side of things will simply never be considered by any colour of government in the present situation.
The first and quickest place to attack this problem is to deal firmly with where problem breeders keep their horses .
Very often, mostly probably these people do not own their own land it's leased rented sometimes council owned the animal are fly grazed on brown field and common land I don't think it beyond us to take firm action at this end at some cost to the taxpayer / council tax payer but without setting huge administrations .
We don't need many stallions in this country so it is worth think about something from this end as well.