Level of Service - Barefoot Trimmers V Farriers

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As for the foal question, yes and no. hardness of feet is not what dictates the need for shoes. It is the speed of growth versus the wear done during work. as long as you have an equlibrium you can go shoeless.

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Ah! That makes sense!

Does anyone know then if owners (and the EPs) continue to trim horses such as this? I presume if so they must be leisure horses rather than competition ones? In which case it would suggest to me that it is not a suitable way to manage your horses welfare?!

As I've said before this trend hasn't really reached Northern Ireland yet so it is a bit of a mystery to me still!
 
Yes sorry- i should have explained- when I bought him he had really long, untrimmed feet- ie never ever had his feet looked at so the angles of growth were starting to become incorrect. Our farrier- who does the loan horse is just qualified and super hes a bit brash and I felt this attitude was not suitable with a horse who was wild- but I didnt want to wait for howie to be fully tame before getting the trim done- he needed urgent attention hence the trimmer- since she been the angles are more appropriate and although barely noticeable to my boyfiend when you line the pictures up you can see the better quality of horn, and the hoof just starting to become more upright, as I said its not a huge change but over time the pictures will help me guage the difference and I can keep the pics for life- I have a book I keep with all info on Howie - so if I ever sell him next owners will know everything about him possible!
 
I use a farrier. £15 a trim and does a great job. Kao seems to like him too
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2 people at my yard use a BF trimmer. £55 for a trim
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I'll stick with my farrier thanks
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As for the photos etc, I wouldn't pay extra for that, nor want it.
Kao's only 2 so not shod yet
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but i do feel the barefoot trimmer trend is almost cultish & not always benifiting the horse all i tend to hear about is boots,pads & footsore horses
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Absolutely!! I said this on the other thread, I do believe its a cult phenomena, often correlating with certain 'natural horsemanship' techniques...
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I'm by no means from the 'beat it til it stands still' brigade, but am going to find something to hide behind to await the flames
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but i do feel the barefoot trimmer trend is almost cultish & not always benifiting the horse all i tend to hear about is boots,pads & footsore horses
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Absolutely!! I said this on the other thread, I do believe its a cult phenomena, often correlating with certain 'natural horsemanship' techniques...
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I'm by no means from the 'beat it til it stands still' brigade, but am going to find something to hide behind to await the flames
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this made me laugh
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As for the foal question, yes and no. hardness of feet is not what dictates the need for shoes. It is the speed of growth versus the wear done during work. as long as you have an equlibrium you can go shoeless.

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Ah! That makes sense!

Does anyone know then if owners (and the EPs) continue to trim horses such as this? I presume if so they must be leisure horses rather than competition ones? In which case it would suggest to me that it is not a suitable way to manage your horses welfare?!

As I've said before this trend hasn't really reached Northern Ireland yet so it is a bit of a mystery to me still!

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My mare has got to a stage where all she now needs is a tidy up most of the time. We generally do more work over the summer months and she wears her feet down a fair amount herself so doesn't need much doing. In the winter we don't do as much roadwork so the trimmer needs to take a bit more off.

I would have to be out on the roads day in day out for her feet to be worn down enough to make her sore though. The only time she's ever been sore is when she's got a bruised sole from being a twat on stony ground - but she got that with shoes on as well so it doesn't make a difference.

I don't pay extra for the photos and notes - I pay for the level of attention and care. I pay for a reliable service. I pay for someoen who arrives on the dot, never cancels and always returns my calls. I pay for advice and education.

We have about 12 horses on my yard and my horse has the best feet by a long shot. The farrier used by some people to trim is awful and every single one of them have cracks and are sore after their trims. The reason the clients stay with the farrier is because he is only £20 - that to me is cruelty
 
Yes I would have gone with our farrier yes, but as it stands I am happy with the job of the EP so will stick with her for now. Loan horse is shod by farrier- I am flexible to the horses needs- as ultimately their helth and welfare is the most important and I will not push my ethics upon them. But I do have to say that I feel I have to defend my EP- because shes done a bloody good job and I feel that she should loose business because of a general bad press. She has never slated farriers- she occasionally is present when the big fella is done and they work and chat alongside each other. Afterall they are both being employed and I respect the advice of both!
 
Wouldn't pay for that
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The farrier you have will always tell you the old balance is wrong, and they have no got it far better. Pip was lucky enough to get X-rayed when their was a debate about his feet, but TBH you can see the correct line, and if the farrier isn't doing it, ask why, if they genuinely feel there is a reason for this ask around people, if they so OK I'll change it make sure they don't revert back to their old style later. It is so easy to take photos and draw the lines yourself these days, and I think I'd do a better job of actually evaluting that than a farrier who needs you to think his job is great.
 
I can see how having photos taken you can see the changes in the hoof but surely if you did the same after having a farrier trim you would also see a difference.
I would only use a farrier, i can't see how anyone can gain the amount of knowledge that a farrier will have after 5 yrs of training by 'training' for a couple of weeks and doing 1 exam.
 
ive read both posts regarding this, to be quite honest im amazed, people actually let someone who has done a couple of days/week training anywhere near their horses feet, what the old saying no feet no horse! and to pay for it, well thats beggers belief in my eyes
whats going to be next do a weeks training and youre more qualified than a vet, farriers EDT's and vets all study hard over a number of years to be able to go out and do the job they do, they have to gain experience before theyre allowed near animals and they are monitored, to be honest in my opinion these are the ones who'd never make it through to being a farrier or are to lazy too and take the easy way
 
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Prompted by the TheFarrier post below and some of the responses below on the justification of using an EP which is more expensive.

Would you pay extra for your Farrier to take photo's of your horses feet and write a report for you?

This is a genuine question as my Brother in Law is a Farrier and if this was a service people wanted, and a reason that people will use an EP over a farrier for trims, maybe it is something that he should be offering.

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Why would I need photos of my horses' feet? I see them every day anyway
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As to a written report... hmmm, I'm not sure how it would work, would I be able to read what he has written? I can barely make out what he is saying at the best of times
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But seriously, no I wouldn't pay extra, I have no need or desire for such a service, I have a 5 mins conversation with my farrier when he arrives, that covers all my wishes and his recommendations. Then I leave him and the groom to it and go off to earn the money to pay him
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What many of you seem to forget is that people often turn to a EP as a last resort, when the "trained" farrier can no longer help the horse. The shoes won't stay on, there are serious cracks in the hoof, serious unbalances, actual foot problems leading to lameness, etc. etc. and in that case as a very last resort before the horse is, in some cases PTS or retired as chronically lame they try the barefoot route.

Surprise, surprise, many, many, many get sound, return to work. It is not true that the EPs do a "6 week training" they do a lot more than that and are mentored. Farriers spend a lot of time learning how to trim a foot to fit a shoe and how to make a shoe. An EP spends time to learn how to trim a foot to work without shoes. None of the EPs I have come across are rude about farriers, they understand how much skill is required and nor do they say that every horse can work without shoes. All of them are horse owners and have had shod horses.

I have personal knowledge of a horse that had 12 months remedial farriery work, spent £5000 on vets fees and at the end of that time the vet more or less said shoot it. As it was a young horse the owner didn't want to to that, so sent it to a barefoot trimmer and in a matter of weeks it was sound and working and is back doing endurance. It is shod for competitions and has shoes off in the winter.

I am sure my own horse would be lame with foot problems had he not been trimmed by an EP for quite a long time. His feet improved wonderfully. I now have him shod in the summer for competitions (and his feet don't look as good now as when barefoot). My farrier is very happy for him to have his shoes off in the winter and I put him in hoof boots for riding if I think he needs it.

If he retires from competitions I think I will revert to barefoot as he moves much better and looked more comfortable without shoes, in which case I will probably go back to using an EP even though it is more expensive because, frankly, they seem to do a better job for trimming a hoof to work.
 
No. My farrier reports as he is working, and I can take my own photos for records if I want.

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Farriers spend a lot of time learning how to trim a foot to fit a shoe and how to make a shoe.

[/ QUOTE ] Sorry, but this statement pisses me off. Farriers train to trim, not to just trim to fit a shoe.
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An EP to come to me would charge £45 per trim (X that by 5) plus £100 travelling. (that is the most local trimmer) My farrier, who does a perfectly good trim, charges £10 per trim. Full stop.
 
The EPs charge more as they spend a LOT more time trimming. A farrier usually wizzes round in minutes. Also my trimmer hardly used a knife, it was mostly done with the rasp and hardly touched the sole.

The trimmer also wants to see the horse walk and trot before and after the trim, to look at footfall. How many farriers do that? A few, but not many.
 
My farrier and I discussed this the other day, I have two - one is unshod as shes only 14 months old, and one is shod, and has been for the last 11-12 years, bar a 5 month period when she had a baby.

When I called my farrier to say she was footsore, and could he come see her please, he came the next day. She couldn't cope - her feet are very tough, very hard, but I think almost too hard, there doesn't seem to be much cushioning effect.

The lady who has the stables next to me uses a barefoot trimmer, and kept saying "no leave her longer, she will get used to it". My farrier & I decided that was borderline cruelty to leave the poor girl hobbling around.

My farrier does a fantastic job, calls to say he will be late, is quiet and understanding with my filly and I can't criticise the job he does. I do know he gets very pissed off with owners who don't follow his reccomendations, who try to cut corners and blame him for the problems they are having (i.e. He reccomends a horse should go 6 weeks - the owner makes it go 10, and it looses a shoe - to my mind that isn't the farriers fault!!!)

We need to do just as much work as our farriers ensuring correct nutrition, that we take note of the weather (this wet/dry weather isn't good!!!), that we pick out our horses feet and treat conditions such as thrush promptly and not place the blame solely on the farriers shoulders.
 
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Prompted by the TheFarrier post below and some of the responses below on the justification of using an EP which is more expensive.

Would you pay extra for your Farrier to take photo's of your horses feet and write a report for you?

This is a genuine question as my Brother in Law is a Farrier and if this was a service people wanted, and a reason that people will use an EP over a farrier for trims, maybe it is something that he should be offering.

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Only one of the Trimmers I've used took photos and that was only because the feet were so horrendous! Is that all the difference is then? Mmmmm some misunderstanding going on here I think. There are good and bad Trimmers and Farriers ime. I wonder why some Farriers are undertaking Trimming training then?
http://www.uknhcp.org/ukpractitioners.html There are Farriers on this list and they run courses for Farrriers... there must be something useful to Farrriers.
 
It's a sad fact of life that there will be some not so good Farriers, but I am sure that these are in the minority.
Equally, there are also some not so good trimmers.
How a trimmer can learn how to balance the horse dynamically and align levers in 15 days is beyond me.
How do they learn to differentiate the needs of all four feet? do they treat both ends of the horse equally, even though the primary functions differ. How about ground reaction forces, how do they manipulate these to improve the task of the equine athlete? Again this takes longer than 15 days to learn.
 
I have had the same barefoot trimmer for nearly five years now, in that time my horse has had one week off due to an abcess otherwise I have been able to ride my horse constantly with no lameness. He has had another performance related issue but that was not foot related.

She has also kept five years of photos of my horse's feet - for her personal record. But if i want them I can have them. Horse number two had pretty crap feet due to a different trimmer and circumstances beyond my control. However, they have improved 100% in the last 12 months since my long standing trimmer took over.

She did offer to send me pics that she had taken as we were discussing it at the last trim and she did point out how much his feet had changed and that I had forgotten how bad they were. I will take her up on that as it is a very useful reminder. I see my boys' feet everyday and do forget how they have changed.

I have two sound horses that are eventing (that shouldn't be on paper). If I had found a farrier that would've kept them sound I wouldn't have turned to barefoot.

Yes there are good farriers and trimmers and equally, as I have found to my own cost, bad trimmers and farriers.
 
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A farrier usually wizzes round in minutes.

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Yes, because mine knows what he's doing.
 
I have only recently joined this forum so was a little sceptical about adding a response to this thread......... but here goes
There are a fair few different 'bodies' for barefoot trimming... some atrocious, some okay and some who really understand the horses foot and way of going.
To give my history, my first mare was barefoot but i ended up having no choice but to have shoes applied due to losing too much heel ( 8 years ago)..... the cause? a farrier trim. Farriers are trained only to trim a foot to apply a shoe and that indeed is a fact. i never felt comfortable seeing the infections caused by the nails etc etc., so........
Many years later, after a lot of studying and research i came across the EP method of the high performance trim by KC Pierre. Was recommended a EP within my area and have never looked back.
All infection gone. no WLD, just good solid hoof ( yes i have gradual pics of the improvement).
one of my mares is advanced endurance and the other is beginning novice. their paces are to die for and they are very footsure.
i can turn out on when its icey, snowing etc etc., as they feel their feet (the other neddies are usually stabled to prevent slipping).
i personally would never let a farrier anywhere near my horses feet again...
i have seen so many horses with laminitis, navicular over the years totally ruined further by preventing the foot from working further by farriers. i say this with total honesty.
please don't slate something that you have never tried. i can because i have been there over many years.
 
Quote: Farriers are trained only to trim a foot to apply a shoe and that indeed is a fact. Quote
This might be so in your neck of the woods but not so here.
 
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A farrier usually wizzes round in minutes.

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Yes, because mine knows what he's doing.

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if i were to trim a hoof, it'd take me HOURS (cos i've never done it before)... does that mean i'm even better than a farrier AND an EP?

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