Libya - is there a reason we are getting involved?

Oil? Really? How original.

Libya is what, 3% of oil supply? And um, the whole Iraq thing really brought down the price of oil didn't it...

And lets face it Gaddaffi was going to win, and we were "friends" and getting our oil so why would we back the other side?

And yeah, Kosovo was chock full of oil wasn't it...

For once we are being vaguely noble... not saying its 100% right what is happening but could you honestly stomach us standing back and watching those people get slaughtered?

If it was just us and the good old USA again then fair enough...but um. No. Get a new argument other than "OIL TROLOLOLOL!".

And my pet peeve of the month done. :D
 
tristar said:
i hope that one day there will be one world government who will act for the general good of everyone, we are are all interconnected whether we like it or not, and interdependant, we are one, also one worldwide currency to stabilise business financial projections and put an end to current frequent currency fluctuations, this would free up billions that could be used to create new jobs through confidence through stability and to develop alternative energie sources, we will then no longer be threatened by the likes of gadaffi offering his oil to china etc. there would be no place for dictators who massacre their own people, ethnic cleansing etc, we need to stand up now and support these brave people who are at the beginning of the wind of change, there is no place for these savages, for that is what they are.
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ARGH! Good GOD I hope not.

Not one for invoking end times usually, but ever read Revelations? :D

Doomsday aside, how on earth would that work out well?!
 
ever heard of the eurozone? a forunner of what could be possible, germany is the strongest economy in europe, property inflation almost zero, france has not suffered the economic, ups and downs due to their conservative attitudes towards money, older properties are now rising in value 6 per cent in one year,official source, notaires de france, a good indicator they are pulling out of recession, many houses in france are heated by wood and geothermie and renault have a new car not fueled by oil, things are changing, wind turbines are everywhere.
irelands problems were largely self induced and not the result of membership of the eu
it would save me personally a lot of time and effort to not have to figure out which currency to pay with when importing and exporting if there was one currency, a small example yes, but multiply this by all the others trying to do business worldwide and the financial benefits are enormous.
i think we are in libya now is because its happening now, not next year, or in the future, lessons have been learned in previous situations, when civilians have been slaughtered its too late.
the idea of world government may seem impossible to many new to the idea, but it is a conception which grows upon one as the potential benefits come to mind during reflection
 
tristar said:
i hope that one day there will be one world government who will act for the general good of everyone, we are are all interconnected whether we like it or not, and interdependant, we are one, also one worldwide currency to stabilise business financial projections and put an end to current frequent currency fluctuations, this would free up billions that could be used to create new jobs through confidence through stability and to develop alternative energie sources, we will then no longer be threatened by the likes of gadaffi offering his oil to china etc. there would be no place for dictators who massacre their own people, ethnic cleansing etc, we need to stand up now and support these brave people who are at the beginning of the wind of change, there is no place for these savages, for that is what they are.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with you more Tristar...... but the perverse nature of other folk being what it is - we will be seen as the loony minority for quite a while yet. All transigent people with shortsighted views should look at a picture of the Earth taken by Neil Armstrong from the Moon.

I used to be in big business and had to spend large amounts of frustration time getting people to talk to one another in setting up deals only to have it all dissolve over and over again - this kind of thing will go one happening - it's human; though the way we organise ourselves in future will be much different than done today.At the moment, we are basically tribal with countries being based on ethnic difference - this will either change, follow the old "Melting Pot" song the more people mix. The world will have to limit population and the only way you can do that properly is to have world authority.
 
tristar said:
ever heard of the eurozone? a forunner of what could be possible, germany is the strongest economy in europe, property inflation almost zero, france has not suffered the economic, ups and downs due to their conservative attitudes towards money, older properties are now rising in value 6 per cent in one year,official source, notaires de france, a good indicator they are pulling out of recession, many houses in france are heated by wood and geothermie and renault have a new car not fueled by oil, things are changing, wind turbines are everywhere.
irelands problems were largely self induced and not the result of membership of the eu
it would save me personally a lot of time and effort to not have to figure out which currency to pay with when importing and exporting if there was one currency, a small example yes, but multiply this by all the others trying to do business worldwide and the financial benefits are enormous.
i think we are in libya now is because its happening now, not next year, or in the future, lessons have been learned in previous situations, when civilians have been slaughtered its too late.
the idea of world government may seem impossible to many new to the idea, but it is a conception which grows upon one as the potential benefits come to mind during reflection
Click to expand...


I used to live in the Irish republic so yes I have ;)

Things like the CAP are atrocious so I can't see world wide policy making going any better...
I'm not exactly some old codger set in their ways, I'm 21 and fairly open to such things but I cannot imagine how it could work...
 
I think we'll never know the true answer. Politicians are very good at putting on the noble act, so lets not be fooled eh?

I know people are arguing that Libya doesn't export as much oil as say Saudi Arabia etc, but the point is that it still brings in a lot of oil, I for one believe a lot of it is oil for several reasons.

They say they are intervening for humanitarian reasons, correct? So if this is the case, instead of spending $50 million PER missile and shooting them at Libya, yet there are starving children in Africa. There are lots of charities based in the U.K who support Africans, but I don't see the PM going out to Africa and funding for education systems, or health care, malaria testing kits? Do you? There is inhumane treatment going on in Africa (I know Libya is part of Africa, but I'm talking about the more Southern countries), children are forced to go out and fight in wars, to kill people randomly, the cycle is endless because children are becoming orphans, having to raise their siblings and trying to get money and surviving, if malaria doesn't catch them first.

Is that fair? Is that right? You could argue, well it's expensive funding all those things, but if each missile costs roughly $50 million, and they've fired hundreds already, we're well into $500 million, just on artillery, let alone paying all the soldiers, fuel etc. I'm not suggesting that we should ignore everywhere else except Africa, of course I'm not; but to me it sounds a little bit fishy?


I'm sure there is a little voice in David Cameron's head which is probably thinking about the humanitarian rights of these people and the unmoral practice of Gaddafi- any idiot can see that.

I think the world is a confusing place, one which I don't know if I would want to grow up in. Inequality, discrimination, wars, cruelty and just general nastiness.

I know that eventually Gaddafi's resources WILL be low, and the manpower of the US, France and UK, is twice of the Libyan, however I do fear that all these protests in Africa and the Middle East are going to spiral out of control.

If Britain and the US intervene with Libya, then they'll be expected to intervene in Bahrain, the Yemen and so on, I think the last thing us Western countries want to be doing is creating more enemies. If Gaddafi holds on and wins this fight, he's going to be pretty p*ssed. I think we have to tread carefully.


Personally, I believe the MAJORITY of the reason why we're intervening is because of oil.
 
Let's get a few facts straight - a Tomahawk Cruise missile costs $500,000 and an Earth Shadow European missile 600,000 euros - a lot of money but nowhere near the inflated prices quoted above. Much of the costs bandied about by the anti-war lobby would have been spent anyway because you can't keep an aircraft carrier or loads of servicemen in a cupboard for free - they have to kept on readiness and they use stuff every day training.

So on to the "why aren't we helping elsewhere" - Libya is not only a practical target for live action but also practical and possible in the present political and tactical military sense - other regimes are supposed to get the hint without the need for hot intervention and as for Qu'addaffi once being a friend - that's often the case in all politics from small offices up to international situations - make friends with one's enemies and screw your friends, history is full of examples.

Most international affairs are dominated by one thought - "you've got what I want" and this can be anything - commodities or a helpful government - anything else doesn't matter that much. At present world markets provide a framework of money which makes the whole thing just about tick along.

Remember, Africa together with most of the world is perfectly capable of feeding itself - it's only when large numbers are uprooted by civil war that disasters occur and they are manmade.
 
if we were more intregrated politically and organised as in world centralisation we would'nt need to have all these different armies and expensive warheads and maintaining aircraft carriers in all the individual countries as at present, which, i could wrong but i think can take up to 5,000 personnel, a sort of larger version of nato could be formed, comprising all nationalities on standby to take action as and where needed, and in this case to protect civilians, the money saved would be phenomenal and could be used research oil energy substitutes , just as an example.
all this unrest in arab oil producing nations is contributing to rocketing oil prices, the price of domestic electricity and gas is resulting in many people not able to afford sufficient heating another reason to pool our resources and energies and work together for the greater good to reduce our oil dependence by developing renewable energy and evolving house structures which consume minimal energy.
as seen in the last two weeks nuclear energy has proved once again to me its a frightening prospect, although aknowledging that the reactors in japan are of a forty year old design, one has to question the sanity of building nuclear reactors in an earthquake zone, and then there is always the question of disposing of the waste safely, it it really possible?
on another subject relevant to the world goverment issue, while eurozone is still in the early days, for the first time there is talk of political integration, without which in its present form it's really a halfway house
 
It is not in the best interests of the rest of the world, that there should be unrest in the lands of the major oil producers. Our wish for stability in the Middle East, must be obvious. The problem arises, when we "assist", and when in the past, we have influenced the installation of a change of regime, then with little thought but our own ends, the results can be disaster.

Whilst the oil reserves of Libya, in themselves, are probably not going to influence the supplies to the rest of the world, major Middle Eastern unrest, most certainly will. So yes, I think that oil is the basis for our intervention. A genuine, and wide spread Middle Eastern war would be disastrous.

Arabs are still tribal people, and as such, they tend to be area based. It makes for difficulties when democracy is installed. Gaddafi has, and will defend, his own home area, and the current rather ramshackle revolutionaries are going to have their work cut out, without major assistance, and without it, they will eventually, give up. The current shoot and scoot policy which they have in place, is little more than an irritation to the Libyan Government forces, I suspect. Those who are bent on revolution may just as well have bows and arrows.

The time will arrive, if it hasn't already when we will send in "advisors". The problem is that you can't train an army which is already at war, and has no concept of the word, discipline.

I also think, that the current Nato policy is bound for failure, without amendment, though this may well have been the plan from the outset. Without such an amendment there is the risk that the whole debacle will end up as a stale mate. We'll see what happens.

Alec.
 
Libya produces very little in terms of world oil production (about 2.5%), although as mentioned, unrest in an oil producing region does have a knock-on effect.

The really strange thing is that there is and has been unrest with some apparent attrocities in other countries, Bahrain, Tunisia, etc, yet no action agianst these, is it then because Gaddafi, just maybe supports terrorism?

IMHO it's not just about oil!
 
Following on from the latest Libyan defection......

There's a Moussa Koussa loussa aboot this housa, and possible replacements are being considered from, Squiddly Diddly, Augie Doggie, and Jaberjaw.

Chicken Licken, Gossey Loosey and Foxy Loxy, are also thought to have put in for the job!! :D

Alec.
 
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