License to compete - your views?

RobinHood

RobinHood

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As part of my degree I have to discuss the implementation of an aspect of the US or German/French equine industry into the UK. When we visited Germany I was intruiged by their system of training and examinations which make it virtually impossible to do anything without a license, so I thought it would be interesting to apply parts of their system to the UK.

I'm considering the following for affiliated competition only:
standard license (horse and rider combination)
professional license
approved test centres/examiners

Following an assessment you'd be issued with a license to compete up to a certain level eg Elem dressage, 1.10 bsja and PN. Licenses could be downgraded if there are safety concerns.

There would be clear guidelines drawn up of what the assessment involves for each level of compeition. The assessor would have to be independent ie not your regular instructor/horse's owner.

benefits
- safety (is there any evidence that amateurs have more accidents?)
- increased professionalism within horse sports
- ability to remove license for all disciplines following abuse of horse

drawbacks
- red tape
- nanny state
- yet another cost for riders
- cost for organisational body, probably BEF
- resistance amongst riders
- reduction in number of affiliated competitiors?

I know you all have views on this so I'd like to hear them
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, preferably how you think this would affect horse sport as a whole rather than the initial negative reaction of all riders in the UK!
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Whilst I think there is a lot to be said for the approach, and I can seen numerous benefits in bringing it in, a few points spring to mind:

1. Someone may be perfectly capable and safe on a schoolmaster type and get licenced on such a horse, and be a complete liability on a youngster.

2. You'd need to look at your groupings carefully - you don't need to be able to ride to elementary standard or jump round a newcomers to be safe at PN for example - and you may not have a horse capable of doing so either - what about all the dressage riders whose horses can't jump (through injury etc) - where do they find a horse to take the test on?

3. It flies in the face of the way affiliated competition in this country is going so to my mind is a bit of a non-starter. On the continent (judging from Tigers_Eye's posts), you can do Riding Club eventing up to (IIRC) the rough equivalent of 2* level - that's unaffiliated (I assume). In this country we now have affiliated walk and trot tests for BD, BSJA starts at 85cm (I think) and BE have introduced 80cm classes. Frankly the sort of people who are going out aff at those kinds of levels and don't want to start at 3ft/cantering in the arena etc (people on baby horses for the first jumping outing notwithstanding) are probably not going to pass a licence in which they have to jump a Newcomers, perform a decent counter-canter, rein-back, simple change and jump a 3ft3 XC course. So what would be the benefit for the governing bodies and why would they want to bring this in? It would only serve to put off the very people they are trying to get to join - the myriads who compete at the lowest levels and provide the biggest income stream.
 
We're about to move to France, so I have been looking into the french system.

What worries me the most is having to jump for the Galop 7 (still haven't figured out if you can do a flatwork only test). I am happy to ride on the flat and compete up to Medium, but I just don't like jumping as I find it too scary. A 3.3" x-country fence is massive to my eyes!

I think with respect to dressage there are more limited safety considerations as there are fewer things that can go wrong and although accidents do happen, they tend to be less serious.
 
that would be imho..awful :O
because
a) would each horse need a license as every horse is different?
b) more cost
c) too much stress!



and
in your 'amateurs more accidents' bit..
i sometimes feel that the pro's are more likeley to have an accident as they are riding more horses then a amateur..and there reaction times slow as they get more tired...so i think it's a bit of a mixed bag in that sense...
 
It's a tricky one. To compete at any level of affiliated competition here you need to have passed an exam of some kind. This was introduced just before I left Belgium in 2001 as far as I can remember, however if you had been a memeber prior to this you were exempt, as were people over the age of 45 I believe
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. There was not a huge amount of uproar as far as I remember.

The lowest test, which allows you to compete at a very low level (max 80cm jumping, prelim dr, no eventing afaik), involves a nice easy dressage test which is judged mostly on your riding, not the horse, followed by two goes round a standardised course of jumps about 60cms high. There is also a multiple choice theory test. This is the "golden stirrup".

The next test, which is the highest you ever have to pass to compete at any level, follows a very similar format but with a tougher dressage test and a course of about 80 - 90cms. The examiners are a bit tougher here and you get feedback. This is the "1st degree".

There are higher exams within the same system, these have to be passed to get your teaching brevets. The "2nd degree" involves the equivalent of a BD Novice test, still judged with the emphasis more on the rider than in a standard test (if your sitting trot ain't up to scratch you won't pass
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), a show-jumping round at about 105cm, and a short cross country round of about 80cms. There is also the theory too. The judging is much much tougher at this level, people rarely pass first time. To be allowed to sit the exam you have to demonstrate competition results at a certain level too.

There is also a 3rd degree, which is an even tougher version of the above.

These exams are held at approved riding schools/equestrian centres, with 2 examiners from a panel. The two lowest exams are held very frequently, all over the place, so it is pretty easy to get into one. There is no jumping-free exam for dressage riders.

For more information see here

At RC level, which is only in the flemish half of the country, there is a jumping exam pony riders (up to 15) have to pass in 3 stages before they can compete in sj competitions, but this doesn't exist at adult level.
 
QR: Forgot to say, another big difference is that the unaffiliated scene is virtually non-existent (ie. outside the goverance of the NF or the RC). During the "summer" months, I think the beginning of April to the end of October, centres are not allowed to run unaffiliated competitions, if they do they face sanctions. So it's not like people have an alternative to passing these exams.
 
In Germany after the bronze test (which entails an 'easy' Novice dressage test and jumping which is supposed to be up to 1m -but there was only 1 fence on our course which you could say was up to that) you can take seperate disciplines... for the Silver, if you want to only take the Dressage then you do a M dressage test - normal silver with jumping would be L (elementary).. and the same for jumping only .. you jump an M course instead of L.


In theory it all seems to be a great idea... however what Spotted Cat says is absolutely true regarding the horse you have, lots of people borrow absolute 'schoolmasters' for both disciplines and do extremely well in the test... but on their own horse or a youngster they are a disaster !

Having had to take part in the German system as well as the UK system I would say both have their merits... but there is definately a middle ground.... There are alot more style competitions in Germany for jumping which on one hand is good in that someone scraping round and getting a clear is not able to get placed.... but then you get the same scenario as the dressage sometimes..... biased strange marks... based on who the rider is , or one week you get brillant marks from one judge.. do the same thing the next week and get slated...
As said, both systems have good and bad points ...
 
I think its a good idea. Saying that though, in Germany - do they not just have to pay one fee and then they're a member of all three disiplines (ie. our versions of BSJA, BE and BD)? Which I think we should do.

The main issue Id have with a license would be the cost. Its expensive to compete affiliated already!
 
I've long been in favour of having some sort of license scheme. It might help to reduce some of the awful riding seen at public events. The late great Pat Smythe certainly advocated introducing a scheme similar to that used in Switzerland. Being cynical I doubt our ruling bodies would welcome the likely loss of membership fees.
 
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QR: Forgot to say, another big difference is that the unaffiliated scene is virtually non-existent (ie. outside the goverance of the NF or the RC). During the "summer" months, I think the beginning of April to the end of October, centres are not allowed to run unaffiliated competitions, if they do they face sanctions. So it's not like people have an alternative to passing these exams.

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Thats shocking. What about people who are just starting out and want to get a taster of clear rounds etc?
 
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QR: Forgot to say, another big difference is that the unaffiliated scene is virtually non-existent (ie. outside the goverance of the NF or the RC). During the "summer" months, I think the beginning of April to the end of October, centres are not allowed to run unaffiliated competitions, if they do they face sanctions. So it's not like people have an alternative to passing these exams.

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Thats shocking. What about people who are just starting out and want to get a taster of clear rounds etc?

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Or people who can't or don't want to affiliate!
 
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Thats shocking. What about people who are just starting out and want to get a taster of clear rounds etc?

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It doesn't seem like France, Belgium, Germany etc. have any problem filling their horse shows or producing riders at all levels so obviously it's not a problem for the sport in general.
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I can't speak from personal experience but it's my understanding that the vast majority (all?) riders in Germany at least start out riding in "Clubs", usually connected to a facility as a physical base, not just encompassing a group of riders. So there is much more structure and supervision from the get go and this would be the route into the sport for most people. In effect it would operate somewhat like a riding school show situation or Pony Club tests (a staple of my youth, they seem to have become a far less important marker these days) - the expectation is that people would only start competing when the reached a certain level and then progress on their accomplishments, not merely when they wanted to upgrade.

That said, it's not like every one is a star on the Continent.
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We're not so much talking of raising everyone to a high level, we're talking about making people aware and responsible for their standard before they start. As said, good and bad aspects . . .
 
Yes TarrSteps, that's true.

I am used to licences, grew up in Italy where you need to pass exams to compete -- a bit like in Germany, the easiest and lowest exam involves a jumping course and a dressage test, but as you go on you can focus on one discipline only (I, for instance, have got the highest licence you can get through exams, but that allows me to compete at the highest level in dressage only, as I chose to do the dressage-only licence; if I ever wanted to do a showjumping competition, I would only be allowed to jump at the level permitted for my 'general' licence).

In Germany the principle is the same (though I didn't have to pass any exams to compete, as they have special 'guest licences' for foreign riders based on their previous competition experience, so I got one of those).

I am so used to a licence-based system, that to me it seems very odd that in the UK absolutely anybody could just trailer their horse to a show and compete there and then, without any sort of formal evaluation beforehand. I understand your point about passing the exam with an easy schoolmaster and then making a mess with any other horse, but surely that's an extreme situation -- generally speaking, whoever judges the exam should be able to decide whether your horse has studied the test by heart in his stable and is carrying you around the arena by himself, or whether you are a decent rider. I do believe that if you are good enough to compete, then you are also good enough to pass an exam!
Having said that, I agree that we are not all geniuses in Europe, so it's not that creating an exam-based system is the panacea for all evils.
 
Well you can go jumping in the winter, or you can start out at affiliated shows round as small as 60cms. At least doing it that way you know there will be minimum standards of course design and facilities (and prizes!). It is not very expensive to compete, your horse has to be registered for a one off fee of 150 euros, which gives it a lifetime registration across all disciplines, then there are different levels of rider licences the starter one at 75 euros (per year). Class entries are 8 euros I seem to remember, that's up to 125 classes at regional level.
 
As far as I know they do have drag hunts in Italy, but it's very elitist and incredibly expensive (hundreds of euros to take part with your own horse). Also, you would have to have a licence for that as well, as the few hunts are normally organised by clubs which are affiliated to the Italian Federation and the Italian Federation requires at least a basic licence for any kind of event/show on horseback.

No idea about Germany.
 
There are some hunts in Germany, but only draghunting - (although they do hunt foxes, just not with hounds and horses) . Having spent alot of years in England working at hunt kennels, and hunting 'properly'.. not sure I could 'do' the German version - would be spending the whole time telling them they were wearing the wrong stuff etc.. :-)

Forgot to say earlier re the exams....after you have passed the various exams... this does not immediately mean you can move up a Leistungsklasse and therefore compete at the next level... you need to get this confirmed at competition.. so in each disipline you enter a class and you need to get over a certain mark - then your exam can be confirmed and you get the higher LK -

Magic Magpie... yes you are right... it is much much cheaper here... I was thinking that this month when I was paying my stuff to the FN... and suddenly realised I should stop whinging about the lack of hunter trials etc.. .. you pay once a year for the horse registration (for all disciplines) and once a year for the rider (again .. for all disciplines) ... and that is that. The only extra is that you need to be a member of a riding club in order to compete.. but that is normally between 35-60 Euro's a year so not too bad.
 
Sorry but I think a liscence to compete is a bad idea. It is a beautiful way to make the sport look even more elitest then we already look.
Oh and how about our young leadrein children who toddle round the tiny jumps, kiddy and pony having fun (leader dieing cos they are unfit). What about showing? what about those who cant jump at all to pass that basic exam. I dont jump full stop, I am capable of it but I dont because I have had a very bad accident jumping and have no intention of doing it again.

what about us adult pony riders? 1m may not seem that big when you are on a 16hh horse but I ride a 14hh connie who is inclined to put in filthy stops when presented with a jump, so heck 60cm's seems massive on him.

I'm half belgian, we have a house in belgium with land but I wouldnt want to attempt to compete a horse over there. Its all so serious, you very very rarely see a child on a pony having FUN and surely with a child that is what it is all about its all so serious and boring.

Yes having a liscence system improves the quality of rider around but it doesnt half remove the fun side of it. The majority of the competitions I do over here are unaffiliated normaly because they are showing comps or local riding club comps where we go to have a good day out, meet friends, have a laugh and have FUN.

Sorry but it is just an added expense, that will make the sport look even more elitest, that removes the fun from competing and discourages people to have a go at the lowest levels.
 
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