Licensed breeders.......

who exactly are the inspectors the council sends out though? If its anything like the inspector sent out to inspect the local riding school then they won't have a clue. they complained to my friend that she might lose her licence because two of the horses were in a paddock with very little grass. They're both prone to laminatis which she just couldn't understand.

Plus inspections happen once a year so its only a snap shot of what's happening. The proprietors of a breeding business just need to have a good tidy round and get a couple of family members to hang around looking like they know what they're doing and bingo licence granted.

We accidentally ended up at a dog show last year. Went to a county show and didn't realise they had a show on. Spend ages talking to people and cuddling dogs. I think you'd still have to do a lot of research before buying.
 
In the ideal world we would not be granting a licence to make puppy farming appear respectable or even acceptable.
But in a less than ideal world I do not think there is an easy answer at all.
 
ester said:
did anyone else see the 'we are making another your new puppy program' advert posted yesterday. It was one of those I think where they were giving people advice, and despite all of that one of them still got a cockerpoo from someone who was at least a very commercial breeder. So I'm not sure how that gap gets bridged or what fills the gap for 'puppy supply' for those people. Especially those who have decided they will have one and therefore want one fairly quickly.
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But people can merrily talk about it then obtain a pup from whatever source on the same day, as we’ve seen recently. I’m pretty sure I could do the same despite the hike in prices. Must have a look at some ads.

smolmaus said:
I honestly dont know what I would do, the concept of paying that much for any dog has broken my brain.
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£5K?! Holy crap, I’m gobsmacked.
 
Parrotperson said:
who exactly are the inspectors the council sends out though? If its anything like the inspector sent out to inspect the local riding school then they won't have a clue. they complained to my friend that she might lose her licence because two of the horses were in a paddock with very little grass. They're both prone to laminatis which she just couldn't understand.

Plus inspections happen once a year so its only a snap shot of what's happening. The proprietors of a breeding business just need to have a good tidy round and get a couple of family members to hang around looking like they know what they're doing and bingo licence granted.

We accidentally ended up at a dog show last year. Went to a county show and didn't realise they had a show on. Spend ages talking to people and cuddling dogs. I think you'd still have to do a lot of research before buying.
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I am afraid you are wrong with a number of points and your friends comment is questionable.

For a riding school to be granted a licence under both the old legislation (now repealed) and under the 2018 Act the school MUST be inspected by a highly experienced equine vet who will also have been accredited to a list of inspectors through BEVA. The inspecting vet is capable of inspecting alone however, most prefer an experienced Council Licensing Officer or EHO to also be present at the inspection. Sadly few authorities have suitably experienced officers but training is on going. Schools in middle England have a very highly experienced licensing officer who is also hired out to other areas.

You are incorrect in the assumption of inspections happening once a year. At initial application an inspection is done and by no means is a general tidy up going to help the cause. The licence if granted will be for 1, 2 or 3 years depending on standards. Regardless of the length of licence an annual horse health inspection will be done and in addition to this the licencing officer must randomly and un announced inspect the premises at given intervals depending on the length of licence, complaints received, covert and overt intelligence.
 
ester said:
yup that's what I was saying re. wanting one quickly?
you missed the 9k one :p
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Hard as it is to believe I guess if you buy a puppy for thousands there is a market for them at that price and there is nothing to stop you breeding your expensive pooch and making a lot of money for yourself. Then it starts making sense, potentially you could do very nicely especially if you buy one that’s a sort after colour. People aren’t really wanting a dog, they are looking for a fashion accessory.
 
AdorableAlice said:
I am afraid you are wrong with a number of points and your friends comment is questionable.

For a riding school to be granted a licence under both the old legislation (now repealed) and under the 2018 Act the school MUST be inspected by a highly experienced equine vet who will also have been accredited to a list of inspectors through BEVA. The inspecting vet is capable of inspecting alone however, most prefer an experienced Council Licensing Officer or EHO to also be present at the inspection. Sadly few authorities have suitably experienced officers but training is on going. Schools in middle England have a very highly experienced licensing officer who is also hired out to other areas.

You are incorrect in the assumption of inspections happening once a year. At initial application an inspection is done and by no means is a general tidy up going to help the cause. The licence if granted will be for 1, 2 or 3 years depending on standards. Regardless of the length of licence an annual horse health inspection will be done and in addition to this the licencing officer must randomly and un announced inspect the premises at given intervals depending on the length of licence, complaints received, covert and overt intelligence.
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thanks AA. I apologise. I will say however that when the vet visited said riding school he did not do so with the council inspector (Correct term?) who went separately, hence the misunderstanding re the poor paddock. Is the vet supposed to check for soundness or just "wellbeing" ?(whatever that is). Do they check tack etc?

I remember now that her licence does indeed run for three years. In the previous years the council/vet attended yearly but never has she had an interim inspection. The vet who comes is an highly experienced equine vet but tends to simply turn up have a conversation and go. I know this vet personally (I cannot say how as I may lose my job) and he is happy to just 'Sign it off'.

Anyway it's not how its supposed to work which is frustrating.
 
CorvusCorax said:
AA can you explain for a numpty, under the legislation or otherwise, what the tax implications would be, for someone selling multiple dogs at four figure sums each?
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You are not a numpty !

The advert is on preloved, one of the platforms that has worked (slightly) with the regulators to try to improve welfare standards, they agreed to include the question 'is the breeder licensed' on their adverts and if the vendor does not answer the question the ad is blocked. Other advertising platforms are being pushed to include this question in the hope the purchasing public will have their attention drawn to buying from regulated breeders. I would like to see law passed to stop live animal internet advertising from unregulated breeders.

A licensed breeder can and many do breed a lot of puppies, it is a very lucrative profession and the governments view, when rewriting the legislation was to 'catch' more breeders and force them into regulation. This is where it became important to stop online platforms allowing advertising of live animals for sale and to try to regulate how advertising can take place, to protect both the public and the animal, in a more transparent way. Since the law changed in Oct 2018 the number of dog breeders becoming regulated has shot up across England. (Wales and Scotland are yet to adopt the legislation and Wales remains a real hotspot for puppy farming) Trading Standards deals with many instances of Welsh puppies coming into England for sale and the Border Force see a huge amount of puppies coming in the ferries, usually hidden in huges amounts of Vodka !

If a breeder is licensed they become visable and regulators would sooner know where the breeders are and work with them to bring standards up than not know and have to deal with the fall out. Even with all the efforts being made under the new legislation may calls are still received from purchasers who have bought a puppy for vast sums that has subsequently died or created a massive vet bill. Without fail the purchaser will have felt sorry for the pup and seen nothing wrong in 'rescuing' it from the shed or coal house they viewed it in without its mother. Then they want to know what the council is going to do about their stupidity.

Going back to our advert, the first step a purchaser should do is ask why there is no licence. Then decide not to part with a small mortgage to buy from the unlicensed breeder, then bring the advert to the attention of the Council where the breeder is selling from. The Licensing Officer will then investigate, aim to licence if possible or commence prosecution. Intelligence will be shared with partner authorities (HMRC and the DWP). The fine for illegal breeding and selling is unlimited and a 12 month prison sentence is also possible.

Whilst the public buy without thought the bin end breeders both dog and horse will continue to thrive and bring animals into the world with uncertain futures. It is all very sad and frustrating.
 
bonny said:
Hard as it is to believe I guess if you buy a puppy for thousands there is a market for them at that price and there is nothing to stop you breeding your expensive pooch and making a lot of money for yourself. Then it starts making sense, potentially you could do very nicely especially if you buy one that’s a sort after colour. People aren’t really wanting a dog, they are looking for a fashion accessory.
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**hums Taxman by The Beatles**
 
Parrotperson said:
thanks AA. I apologise. I will say however that when the vet visited said riding school he did not do so with the council inspector (Correct term?) who went separately, hence the misunderstanding re the poor paddock. Is the vet supposed to check for soundness or just "wellbeing" ?(whatever that is). Do they check tack etc?

I remember now that her licence does indeed run for three years. In the previous years the council/vet attended yearly but never has she had an interim inspection. The vet who comes is an highly experienced equine vet but tends to simply turn up have a conversation and go. I know this vet personally (I cannot say how as I may lose my job) and he is happy to just 'Sign it off'.

Anyway it's not how its supposed to work which is frustrating.
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That is worrying. A full inspection at first application or full renewal is a very lengthy process. Here is a link to the law -https://assets.publishing.service.g...nimal-welfare-licensing-hiring-out-horses.pdf

All horses used for hire must be health checked, that is eyes, heart and soundness (trot up) suitability is also a factor so for instance, if a horse appears to be difficult to handle or with conformation that presents a problem questions would be asked.

All tack is inspected for wear/stitching gone etc. Girth straps and horses checked for tack rubs/marks.

The new legislation has given premises an absolute ton of paperwork to complete, record keeping has tripled. Have a look at the legislation, it is an eye opener, if a boring read !
 
Levrier said:
You are a numpty if you believe that CC, everyone knows the main motivation for the government regulating dog breeding was to ensure that breeders paid tax on puppy sales ???
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And your ignorance knows no bounds. I was asked a sensible question and my reply is factual and correct.

if anyone else wants correct guidance on the law surrounding dog breeding be it from a purchaser or breeder point of view, ask me privately.
 
AdorableAlice said:
And your ignorance knows no bounds. I was asked a sensible question and my reply is factual and correct.

if anyone else wants correct guidance on the law surrounding dog breeding be it from a purchaser or breeder point of view, ask me privately.
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Maybe if you weren’t so incredibly patronising and arrogant in tone with every answer you give I might be more willing to listen, but sadly you always lose me after the first sentence. I’m absolutely sure you won’t be losing any sleep over that, in the same way as I’m not losing any sleep over your lack of recognition and acceptance that the law is imperfect and needs improving, which is most definitely the case.
 
AdorableAlice said:
And your ignorance knows no bounds. I was asked a sensible question and my reply is factual and correct.

if anyone else wants correct guidance on the law surrounding dog breeding be it from a purchaser or breeder point of view, ask me privately.
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In fairness to Levrier and while I appreciate you writing out a reply, I am still a little confused :o
So when the licence is granted, that brings them to the attention of HMRC? Or is it only if things go wrong after a purchase?
 
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