Licensing ?? What are your views

[emilymai]

'Will the issue of overproduction be eliminated if breeders had to be licensed?'

Recently at uni we have been debating the issue of overproduction, too many poorly bred horses, unwanted and abandoned etc and have had to have teams of for and against to give reasoning as part of a module... It has been a very interesting area of discussion.
There were only 10 of us and some of the views and ideas were brilliant but it would be great to see the views on a larger scale!

What do you think ? Would licensing help eliminate over production and indiscriminate breeding ? Would it cause more problems? Would you be for or against if this was ever to be proposed?

Personally i dont think it would eliminate problems initially but could be a step to improving the initial problem we have in the UK.

Before anyone comments, this will in no way shape or form benefit our debate as it has already been and gone ! It is purely out of interest to see if anyone has any particularly interesting views or ideas! Im sure everyone can agree something needs to be done but what?!

Happy debating !

 

[Spring Feather]

I only breed to inspected and licensed WB stallions and all of my mares are registry inspected and have full breeding approvals which I pay handsomely for each year, along with paying to have each foal inspected/branded and given their passports.

Stallions with the majority of the western breeds over here must be licensed for the foal to get registry papers.

However, there are still plenty of backyard breeders here and plenty of unwanted horses; some registered and some not.

 

[Rollin]

I don't think the UK has an organisation in place which could control licensing in the UK. The NED never lived up to its potential and DEFRA still haven't got control of passports.

France does control horse breeding to some extend but there are still plenyt of poor quality horses and ponies.

In France ALL horses have to be registered on the national database, SIRE. All covering certificates are issued by the National stud through an on line service. Mares and stallions MUST be swabbed and lab tests always demand the SIRE number.

All births must be notified to the National Stud within 15 days. I obtain my CB passports in the UK but I am emailed to remind me to obtain a passport if I have not applied to the National Stud - which is the ONLY PIO in France.

Horses who compete in France MUST be correctly registered with SIRE. Even for endurance my horses must have to have Cheval de Sport registration. Non-pedigree horses are excluded from top class dressage, sj etc.

If I wish to compete I must also have a license issued by the French Equestrian Federation.

So there is some control of the competition breeding sector but still poor quality horses just for hacking.

 

[Dry Rot]

It's the plonkers who would be issuing the licences I'd be worrying about! The ones I have to deal with (DEFRA, etc) seem to be highly trained in stupidity and not at all in common sense. Assuming we follow schemes which already recommend what should/shouldn't be bred from in the dog world, we'd end up with something like The Kennel Club and the film makers would be making a horsey version of Pedigree Dogs Exposed. (If you haven't seen it, do a search of YouTube. It should be compulsory viewing for anyone even remotely involved in breeding pedigree animals!).

The current system may be chaotic but it is what has created the breeds we have. When someone can write a "standard" for a glorious sunset or a pretty girl, I'll be all for regulation.

 

[Lgd]

Same old problem as with passports - nobody is organised enough or has the will to police it properly.
The law abiding would do it and the ones that really need targetting by such a scheme would continue doing what they do.
The former will already pretty much be breeding from graded/licensed stock.

 

[sywell]

The system works in the main continetal breed societies and the way forward is linear scoreing which has been proved in Holland and now is used in Germany. A detailed explanation can be found on the WBFSH website under Annual Meetings/Warsaw and is very detailed. I would never use an ulicensed stallion.

 

[BethanT]

I think it is a good idea actually, but perhaps the licencing of all mares and stallions should be implemented also. This could be backed up in a way so that in order for a foal to gain a passport both parents must be licenced/registered.

After talking to a woman who has a fairly elite stallion (but novice herself in genreal knowledge of horses let alot breeding) told me the other day she plans to cover as many mares with her stallion as possible regardless of breed or quality - it strengthened my idea for a need for something like this.

But that said it means some sort of organisation needs to be in control of passports etc which as of yet, none are. Something does need to be done though.

 

[Equi]

All for it. Anything to help the problem. If i have to pay more to pay for a stud, so be it. I would not breed to an unknown stallion anyway.

 

[popsdosh]

All for it. Anything to help the problem. If i have to pay more to pay for a stud, so be it. I would not breed to an unknown stallion anyway.

That is your choice but what right does anybody have to say I cannot breed whatever I like! I am experienced at breeding over many years but would never dream to dictate. you all seem to think it is the answer to unwanted equiines well I am afraid it is not and never will be. Economics will ultimately dictate the numbers bred.
I do not grade any of my mares as I dont need to whats the point the foals are worth no more.I have seen many mares graded that never should have but the right face presented it. I know my mares and they are chosen for what I am aiming to breed and that is top end event horses .All my horses carry my prefix and my reputation as a breeder relies on their performance which is really all that counts.However I would never feel I had the right to tell somebody else they cannot do the same but they will soon learn not to when they cannot sell what they are producing.

 

[popsdosh]

I think it is a good idea actually, but perhaps the licencing of all mares and stallions should be implemented also. This could be backed up in a way so that in order for a foal to gain a passport both parents must be licenced/registered.

Every foal born has to be chipped and passported or do you think we should go backward again. Who do you suggest has the authority to decide which are licenced and which are not. Perhaps this approach should be adopted for other species including our own!!!!!

 

[Spring Feather]

That is your choice but what right does anybody have to say I cannot breed whatever I like! I am experienced at breeding over many years but would never dream to dictate. you all seem to think it is the answer to unwanted equiines well I am afraid it is not and never will be. Economics will ultimately dictate the numbers bred.

I don't. Which is why I said that there are many unwanted horses over here, both registered and unregisterd.

I do not grade any of my mares as I dont need to whats the point the foals are worth no more.I have seen many mares graded that never should have but the right face presented it. I know my mares and they are chosen for what I am aiming to breed and that is top end event horses .All my horses carry my prefix and my reputation as a breeder relies on their performance which is really all that counts.

Over here if we want our foals to have full German pink papers then our mares MUST be inspected and breeding approved by the registries. There is a significant difference in price for registered WB foals with full German passports compared to unregistered 'WBs'; like 3 times as much, so it would be silly to not have all breeding approvals on suitable mares.

However I would never feel I had the right to tell somebody else they cannot do the same but they will soon learn not to when they cannot sell what they are producing.

I agree.

 

[Spring Feather]

Every foal born has to be chipped and passported or do you think we should go backward again. Who do you suggest has the authority to decide which are licenced and which are not. Perhaps this approach should be adopted for other species including our own!!!!!

Here and in Germany it is the individual breed registries who decide which mares/stallions will gain full breeding rights/licenses and all resulting foals are inspected by the breed registry. I find it strange that this isn't done in the UK tbh. The grading system in the UK, I don't really understand tbqh; it sounds different to breed registry inspections.

 

[AengusOg]

The original question was 'Will the issue of overproduction be eliminated if breeders had to be licensed?

There are already provisions made by various breed societies for licencing of breeding stock. The licencing of breeders is a different issue.

Personally, I don't think licencing of breeders will root out the people responsible for over-production of inferior horses and ponies. Those who breed for profit have been hit hard by the slump in demand. The surfeit of cheap, low grade horses is a legacy of life before the recession. Profit seekers kept covering their mares even after the financial crisis took hold, and this resulted in umpteen yearlings, 2yr olds and 3yr olds quickly becoming unsaleable, and many mares were back in-foal. Many of these horses are still unsold.

Dog breeders using a certain amount of bitches for breeding are obliged to be licenced, yet we still see some badly bred dogs and over-breeding by some unscrupulous individuals.

It may be more sensible, and more easily policed, if anyone who kept a horse had to obtain something similar to a County Parish Holding (CPH) number from Defra. A system already exists which farmers and smallholders must comply with if they wish to keep stock. Once the CPH is obtained, the holder must contact Animal Health, an executive agency of Defra, who allocate a flock/herd number and advise on any movement records which must be kept for the animals on that holding. This would have been a more sensible approach than the NED/passport debaucle, in my view.

All agricultural stock animals must have movement records kept for them, and this is the responsibility of the CPH holder. This brings accountability into stock-keeping, and allows animals to be traceable in the event of disease. Movement records also provide support, along with receipts, for transactions, and all animals sold can be traced to their new owners.

If a similar system were implemented for equines, it would bring accountability and clarity to the keeping and movements of horses, better control of disease, and would mean that those who chose not to comply with the conditions would be more easily identifiable.

 

[Rollin]

In France all keepers of horses should be registerd with National Stud and local Mayor, in practice this does not happen.

People who compete and breed pedigree horses do whereas many with horses as pets or for leisure do not.

 

[Alec Swan]

Licensing breeders would be a case of permitting someone to have their mare covered, or not. Presumably, if a mare escapes, and she's covered by a colt in the next paddock, and a surprise foal arrives, what's to happen? Will authority confiscate the foal and destroy it, or will the mare and the colt owners face prosecution?

Has anyone who gives any thought, what so ever to only allowing breeding by licensed breeders, given any thought at all, as to how the system would be monitored? How would a License change anything? Would it be a case of only allowing breeders to apply for a License who have experience? Would the Authorities decide which mare could be bred from and which stallion could be used? This isn't '1984', you know!

Whilst horse owners have the 'right' to breed, and without restriction, we will have the situation which we have now. Introduce a licensing system, and nothing will change. The very idea of Licensing breeders and controlling their production is complete and utter lunacy....... and NO, I don't have any further ideas, apart from re-opening equine abattoirs, and giving the animal a value.

Alec.

 

[sywell]

The point raised about registering the holding where horses are kept is one where there was resistance in the equine industry as there were concerns over the imposition of movement orders but in many countries in the EU the horses is an agricultural animal and the holding has to be registered under the CAP this avoids the 30 day rule on change of ownership which is specific to the UK so when there is a disease out break you are not interested who owns he horse only where horses are kept in a disease control area. There is no indication that DEFRA has any enthusiasm to require holdings to be registered. If the horse was an agricultural animal this would have implications for the rating stucture as indoor schools would cease to be rated on the same level as commecial properties but be exempt as agricultural and that is never going to be supported by government.

 

[Equi]

That is your choice but what right does anybody have to say I cannot breed whatever I like!

Noone but if it was law then they would have a say. I would like to see licenses, to breeders as well as stallions. I can't see it happening or making much difference because they won't police it, but if they did police it they could at least fine people for banging out 50 foals a year in a barn (which happens here a lot) I don't think it is too much to ask for but some breeders seem to have a "ill do whatever i want" mentality and honestly, thats why we are in the problem. Sure, YOU may breed fab top horses, thats what you aim for and thats what you get, but there are others who will use "i can do what i want" to breed crap horses that are not fit for much more than a family pet or meat.

 

[Equi]

The original question was 'Will the issue of overproduction be eliminated if breeders had to be licensed?

There are already provisions made by various breed societies for licencing of breeding stock. The licencing of breeders is a different issue.

Personally, I don't think licencing of breeders will root out the people responsible for over-production of inferior horses and ponies. Those who breed for profit have been hit hard by the slump in demand. The surfeit of cheap, low grade horses is a legacy of life before the recession. Profit seekers kept covering their mares even after the financial crisis took hold, and this resulted in umpteen yearlings, 2yr olds and 3yr olds quickly becoming unsaleable, and many mares were back in-foal. Many of these horses are still unsold.

Dog breeders using a certain amount of bitches for breeding are obliged to be licenced, yet we still see some badly bred dogs and over-breeding by some unscrupulous individuals.

It may be more sensible, and more easily policed, if anyone who kept a horse had to obtain something similar to a County Parish Holding (CPH) number from Defra. A system already exists which farmers and smallholders must comply with if they wish to keep stock. Once the CPH is obtained, the holder must contact Animal Health, an executive agency of Defra, who allocate a flock/herd number and advise on any movement records which must be kept for the animals on that holding. This would have been a more sensible approach than the NED/passport debaucle, in my view.

All agricultural stock animals must have movement records kept for them, and this is the responsibility of the CPH holder. This brings accountability into stock-keeping, and allows animals to be traceable in the event of disease. Movement records also provide support, along with receipts, for transactions, and all animals sold can be traced to their new owners.

If a similar system were implemented for equines, it would bring accountability and clarity to the keeping and movements of horses, better control of disease, and would mean that those who chose not to comply with the conditions would be more easily identifiable.

I agree with all of this.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

In response to the OP:

The 'Ministry' used to require all stallions agred 2 and over to have a stallion licence.
This was not policed, and there were many travellers and back yard breeders who did not have them.
This was scrapped in the 70's.

Defra require all equines to have a passport.
This system is not policed. Many travellers and Joe Public do not have them.

Untill Defra actually enforce their own rules, then I cannot see how anything else can be implemented

 

[no_no_nanette]

The point raised about registering the holding where horses are kept is one where there was resistance in the equine industry as there were concerns over the imposition of movement orders but in many countries in the EU the horses is an agricultural animal and the holding has to be registered under the CAP this avoids the 30 day rule on change of ownership which is specific to the UK so when there is a disease out break you are not interested who owns he horse only where horses are kept in a disease control area. There is no indication that DEFRA has any enthusiasm to require holdings to be registered. If the horse was an agricultural animal this would have implications for the rating stucture as indoor schools would cease to be rated on the same level as commecial properties but be exempt as agricultural and that is never going to be supported by government.

I've chased this issue a number of times, and written to all our MEPs in the south-east about it - interestingly, only the Green Party MEP replied! So much for most MEPs earning their large salaries .... I completely fail to see why this doesn't fall into one of the key categories that the Common Market, later the EU, was established to correct - unfair competition. If most equines on the continent are registered as agricultural animals, with the VAT and other advantages that that brings with it, our breeders and producers are not competing with them on a level playing field - therefore unfair competition??? I would have thought so, in which case why is the UK government not being chased by Brussels to change the classification? (It's unlikely that all the other countries in the EU would agree to theirs being changed I would have thought!)

 

[FairyLights]

Licencing is a great idea but it needs to be enforced.

 

[texascbs]

In response to the OP:

The 'Ministry' used to require all stallions agred 2 and over to have a stallion licence.
This was not policed, and there were many travellers and back yard breeders who did not have them.
This was scrapped in the 70's.

Defra require all equines to have a passport.
This system is not policed. Many travellers and Joe Public do not have them.

Untill Defra actually enforce their own rules, then I cannot see how anything else can be implemented

I agree. Licensing stallions for many organizations seems too subjective. You are dependent on the powers above to decide if your stock is worthy plus fees. I would rather put effort into identification, registration for identification/ownership, animal care and housing, policing sales, humane transport to the slaughter houses, and humane treatment before slaughter. Plus heavier fines for inhumane treatment, neglect, and abandonment.

 

[tristar]

the idea in france to be registered is so that all owners of equides can be notified in the event of an outbreak of disease, to enable them to take action to protect their horses, and so the min of ag knows where they are.

I have a beautiful French pony, she is reg as origine non constatee, or something, anyway in effect they have lost all the records of her breeding. idiots, many people have commented on this pony`s conformation as being virtually perfect, so here we have an obviously very well bred blood pony who through the system has been robbed, how daft is that?

I have a stallion that is licensed to breed in 4 countries, he is used very little, he was kept and tested at home until he was 6 years old and he could be fully ridden and appraised suitable or not for breeding, if he had so much as spooked at a crisp packet he would have been gelded, the only person who knows if this horse is any good is me, because I was with him all the time, I was not interested what anyone else thought because they don`t ride him and know nothing about him, so you could say a lot comes down to personal responsibility.

 

[gnubee]

I don't like the idea of compulsory licensing because I think it can deter small scale responsible breeders. However, I would like to see a 'cost' on all foals to deter what a riding stables I used to visit did in putting all their retired/on rest/too hard for clients to ride mares in foal to un gelded colts they picked up cheap. I think the best way to address this would be that to passport a horse you either had to hav covering certificate from a licensed stallion, or if not then have to pay a fixed fee in the region of £500 to passport. If a foal isn't worth putting £500 into then it isn't worth breeding. The unregistered foal passports could be issued by charities only (like bhs) so the money goes towards sorting out the problems that breeding all these lame in rideable foals creates.

 

[Dry Rot]

Noone but if it was law then they would have a say. I would like to see licenses, to breeders as well as stallions. I can't see it happening or making much difference because they won't police it, but if they did police it they could at least fine people for banging out 50 foals a year in a barn (which happens here a lot) I don't think it is too much to ask for but some breeders seem to have a "ill do whatever i want" mentality and honestly, thats why we are in the problem. Sure, YOU may breed fab top horses, thats what you aim for and thats what you get, but there are others who will use "i can do what i want" to breed crap horses that are not fit for much more than a family pet or meat.

What would worry me is who "they" are! Successful breeding is not simply a matter of selecting for what "they" consider a desirable phenotype -- in other words, there is more to a horse than just it's physical appearance. It is often economic demand that has created our great breeds over hundreds, if not thousands of years, and we tamper with them at our peril.

Select for looks alone and you get what the shows have created. All too often, shows creat animals that look good but are prone to all manner of problems that don't come to a judge's notice. Any pedigree breeder of experience will tell you how difficult it is to select for more than a handful of characteristics and how much more difficult it is to breed for characteristics that are not obvious from a coursory external examination (by "them"!), especially in working animals.