Little training tips, please, if you wouldn't mind

[Patches]

Hiya....again!

Right, so we've pretty much mastered sit and down with the aid of a treat. Harvey is very food focussed though and does keep a very eager eye on his treat (which isn't really a treat, it's just a piece of puppy kibble) and will jump/snatch for it if I'm not careful.

I keep saying "No" and asking him to sit back down. Today I've progressed to asking him to "look at mummy" after asking him to sit. He does not get the treat until he breaks his gaze from it to look at me.

It only takes a second or two, but just gets him thinking beyond lungeing at the treat. I want him to be focussed on me, not just what I have in my hand.

Is this asking too much or wrong at this stage?

He is proving to be quite nippy and snappy and I'm conscious that everything I do now forms his adult being. I am trying so hard to make him see that snapping/biting etc offers him no reward whatsoever and that anything I have for him is given not just for the action, but for manners as well.

I am waffling and probably not making sense. Cookies if anyone follows me ramble and a stiff drink for those who follow it enough to form a reply.

ETA: How do I, when working alone, use treats to help him with retrieving...well namely letting go of the toy on the "dead" command?

He will happily retrieve a toy when we're just playing, but he wants to play tug of war, growling, and not hand it over. As soon as he knows I have treats, which I'm sure he'd let go of the toy for, I cannot for the life of me get him to leave my side and retrieve anything!

 

[Spudlet]

Ohh Harvey....

I would highly recommend starting clicker training. You can get loads of books on the subject and it is dead easy

The advantage is that the 'click' is a unique sound, and it removes any emotion you might be feeling from the equation - so even if you are a little frustrated at waiting for ages for him to do something that won't come out in the click as it can in verbal praise (let's face it we've all been there, saying 'what a good dog!' through gritted teeth!).

At this stage I wouldn't worry about getting a retrieve to hand or anything. If he's bringing it back, don't try to take it away straight away, stroke and praise him while letting him keep the toy, making you a good place to be, then put one hand gently on his head, and with the other take the toy, and give the command. Don't try and pull it away, and don't be drawn into a game - if he tries to pull don't give any verbal command at all, don't enter into the game at all, just keep hold of the toy. When he lets go, which he will because he will get bored of playing a game by himself, praise him and immediately swap it for something else - another toy or a treat - so that he gets a reward for handing it over. Do not pop his mouth open to take it away as this will just make him hang on for grim life even more!

Eventually wth the retrive - again he may be a bit young but once you have got the clicker well established you can begin using this to teach a proper retrieve. Break the retrieve down into its component parts - you want him to go the the toy, pick it up, turn to you, return and give it back. Work on this one bit at a time, building gradually to a proper retrieve.

Horse and Country TV have some interesting short videos on their website by a guy called Howard Kirby which cover this kind of thing including getting a puppy to retrieve - I'd recommend them. There are also books on clicker training gundogs specifically which I have heard are good though I don't have one yet myself - I'm getting one soon as a treat for myself though

I think getting him to wait for his treat is a good idea, again a clicker helps as you can click to reward the sit at the second it happens but you then have a few seconds grace before needing to stuff the treat into him, encouraging him to wait and be patient!

Don't forget to keep training sessions very short as he will get bored easily, and try to always end on a high

Hope this helps

 

[Patches]

Brilliant! Thank you.

I hadn't thought of clicker training, largely because I'm not sure I want to always have a clicker hanging from my wrist. I will definitely look into it though.

I will just have to go and have a nose at Duncan's FB. He has a Howard Kirby on his friend list, from a weather photography forum. Would be ACE if it was the same one....though I doubt I could be THAT lucky!

I will endeavour to refrain from tugging the toy. He likes all the fluffy ones and I genuinely think he gets his teeth stuck in the them. Will just sit patiently and wait for him to release his teeth from it.

ETA: Too good to be true, although the Howard on Duncan's FB does own a Collie and is somewhat younger and HOT! (He's like a young Hugh Laurie...and a bachelor!)

 

[Spudlet]

I don't use the clicker for everything, but I do always use it for retrieval, and it is helpful for getting new behaviours embedded - I taught 'down' with the clicker but now no longer need it as the behaviour is in there (somewhere!). TBH it is so small and light I hardly notice it, and out and about it tucks up my sleeve when I don't need it.

 

[Patches]

Excellent. Just trying to find Clicker Training episode one...can find two, three, four etc.

What happens with there being more than just me who interacts with Harvey? Do we all need a clicker for every time we are around him? That's alot of clickers, especially if I want to use the clicker to help stop him biting at toes etc.

 

[itsme123]

I'm quite lucky that Rosie isnt very food orientated but we did go through the 'I'm noooot letting go of it mum!' stage a couple of weeks ago. At this stage they need to learn that its all fun fun fun! Sit and play with him, rub the squeaky toy over his belly, show him how it squeaks, and dont have a treat in your hand. leave the treats within eyesight on a table or side. or better still, in a bum bag. Concentrate on playing, then one hes got that then throw it a small distance. He will eventually run for it and pick it up. As soon as he picks it up, then 'harvey come!!! ' and when he returns it to you then treat him. If he hangs onto it for dear life, change your body language, look away and put your hand flat with a slow 'no Harvey'. As soon as he lets go, then treat and fuss. Dont get into a tug of war with him, if he refuses to let go,then don't play ball. He'll soon learn that it's more fun to let go and have it thrown again.
If he's wagging his tail slow and low then thats because he truly doesnt understand what you want of him, if it's high and fast then its because he fully understands and is being cheeky. Don't act negativley towards confused behaviour.

Rosie loves soft toys too, but I got her a puppy ball (it's got feet on it and squeaks) and spent time getting her to see that's fun. It's easier to carry on walks (so I can use it for recall and reward) and doesnt carry the same 'playtime' attachment of her other toys if that makes sense,more of a 'this toy gets me food / fuss'. This is the method my dad always used and worked for both Jack and Rosie

 

[Patches]

I tried leaving them out of the way, but in eyesight means he just tries to get to the treats and I've lost his attention completely.

He loves his food!

 

[itsme123]

as regards the toe biting thing. We have tons and tons of chews lying round from bones to balls and even one of those huge knuckle bones. She gets no reaction from biting toes (or ears) aside from the victim walking away and ignoring her. When she's in with us she's distracted from negative behaviour with her chews. I change what she has daily so she's never ever bored.

So far i only have one spindled chair leg

 

[Patches]

I have tonnes of toys too. I try to walk away and ignore him but he will be swinging from the back of your trouser leg.

He is ignored, he gets no rewards from chewing and we also mix up his toys.

He hasn't, as yet, had a real bone but that will be rectified later. Popped in the butchers earlier, but they were only just setting up. I have to go back before school this afternoon.

He was always the pup, along with another, that was constantly playing "rough and tumble" before we got him. I'm sure he thinks he can play that with me.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Personally I'm not a fan of clickers, for me it is just one more thing that I risk forgetting and then you need to click in the right moment to reward what you want to reward and for me it is fully enough to focus on rewarding in the right moment, without needing to remember to click something at the same time.
People have been able to teach dogs all sorts of things through the years without clickers (even Spaniels, so I've heard

) but I know that some people think clickers are wonderful. But (to me) it is basically the same thing, it is all about rewarding in the right moment.




Back to training tips, if you want him to focus on you, you're (sort of?) already doing the correct thing by not giving him the treat until he looks at you. You only need to be patient, remember that he is young, which usually equals impatient, five seconds seems like an eternity etc.
Also, in dog language looking straight towards someone is done by dominant dogs, to me it is a good sign when it takes some time to teach a puppy that you want him to look at you. After all, who wants a puppy that believes he/she is dominant over their owners from the beginning? But just as they learn that humans smile when we are happy, the puppy learns that we want them to look at us.

Though since he is young, maybe you believe you're at the second tread when in fact, Harvey is still at the bottom of the stairs? Have you taught him "look at mummy" separately? Holding the treat both right, left, high, low, close etc. and him not getting it until he looks at you, not involving any other training?
If he really is as treat oriented as it sounds, it shouldn't be that long before he realises that looking at you can get him the treat faster.




By the way, I wouldn't bother about saying "No", if he really wants the treat (or other reward), then simply not getting it when he wants it, equals an unspoken No.
To briefly go back to clickers, they are a development after adapting the training of dolphins with shaping pipes to dog training, the thing is that dolphin trainers can not say No to their dolphins, dolphins are only trained with the difference between reward and no reward.






You can use the roulette reward system, sometimes the reward is a treat from your hand or it is just your happy voice, you throw the treat/toy (so that he doesn't always gets it from your hand), you have the treat between your lips (difficult not to focus on your face then), it is a toy that you hide under a cushion and let him find and sometimes you reward with both happy voice and happy dancing/bouncing around/basically acting like a fool (not to much if he's easily excited) etc.

The roulette rewarding can also be used simply so that when he is trying to hypnotize the treat to leap into his mouth, sometimes, when he gives you that nanosecond glance in the corner of his eye, you say "Good" while quickly giving him the treat, sometimes you just say "Good" and then wait until he looks a little longer at you before giving him the treat.



When he has a tie or lead on him (so that you don't need to hold in him with your hands, without can put your foot on the lead or the end of the tie, to keep him from reaching the treat) you put down the treat on the floor/ground just beyond his reach and then you wait until he looks at you.
Without needing any No's, he learns that lunging himself, crawling, hypnotizing stare etc. will not get him to the treat. He will have to learn that the key to getting the treat, is to look at you.





If I know that a certain reward makes my dogs a little too enthusiastic/too obsessed, that is the reward I use the least, because I want them to be focused on me.

About him not being willing to leave you to retrieve something when he knows you have treats, do you always reward him for things that he does close to you? If you see him lift one of his paws on the other side of the room, do you say "Good boy" thinking that it might lead to some paw trick in the future (e.g. he will eventuallly realise that things he does on a distance can also be rewarded)? Do you let him crawl, climb up on any small stones when you're out walking, giving him a treat when he comes up (e.g. teaches him that not all treats are given when he's close to your feet)?


Since I've always been told that if you want a good "deliverer/delivery", you shouldn't teach them to retrieve in exchange for a treat, because that might make them them want to drop it on the ground and not wait and leave it in your hand, how about excluding the treats from the retrieving training?
Make the dummy (or what you use as a dummy) the treat, the dummy is what makes mummy go happy and nutty like nothing else. If he doesn't run for it, you will and if you get it first, act like you've won the Grand National and the prize is all yours...

Then you throw it again and if he as much as twitch in a paw thinking about running after it, "Good boy!" and then you run after it yourself again...
And again, until he realises that what matters is to get to the dummy before mummy yet again gets all the fun for herself...

If you get him to run up to the dummy before you, end the retrieving training that day, after all, Rome wasn't built on one day.


Good luck.

 

[kirstyhen]

Where do you hold the treat and how do you react if he lunges to get it?

I hold a treat in my closed fist and keep it low, if the dog tries to get it, I don't move my hand and they get a low, sharp No.
When I give a treat I take my hand down under their chin so they have to move their heads down and back to get it, I've found if you just shove a treat in front of their nose they can get snappy, especially if you snatch your hand away to avoid dribbles etc

 

[Patches]

All good, sound advice. Thanks Finny.

I don't believe he is in any way "trained" and certainly don't feel anything is established enough for me to consider we're not right at the very beginning. We're very firmly on the bottom step!

I am just so conscious in the fact that he's quite a dominant pup and I fear that he could be aggressive as he matures, unless I "knock it on the head" and train him effectively now.

I've just given him his first clean bone, to help with the teething. Let him have it for 30 mins and he has growled and snapped when it's been removed from him. All of which got a very stern, deep "no" and an "a...arr" sound. I then asked him to sit and gave him the bone back for another ten minutes. When I removed it the second time he didn't react at all...just sniffed about looking for it with a very waggy tail. I think he likes bones!

I can put my hand in his food bowl, pick it up etc. That's fine. Anything that he has in his mouth though...be it this bone, a toy, my sock (still attached to my foot) or my clothing etc...he feels is his and he will not let go without lots of growling and snapping. I would love someone to tell me this is normal puppy behaviour and not to worry about it, just keep on reiterating the "no's" and "no bites" to him and praising him when he gets it right.

He was the runt, along with his sister, and perhaps he's had to fight for everything from day one. It was a large litter of 10 too. I feel I might need some help with him, to make sure I'm on the right track......but....I have another two weeks to wait with the cock up over his vaccinations. He doesn't get the second jab until this weekend.

I want him to grow up into a mild mannered, cheeky, merry cocker and want to set the ground rules from day one.

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you hold the treat and how do you react if he lunges to get it?

I hold a treat in my closed fist and keep it low, if the dog tries to get it, I don't move my hand and they get a low, sharp No.
When I give a treat I take my hand down under their chin so they have to move their heads down and back to get it, I've found if you just shove a treat in front of their nose they can get snappy, especially if you snatch your hand away to avoid dribbles etc

[/ QUOTE ]

Ooo very, very good piece of advice!

I had been holding it pretty much above his nose, as I was using him visualising on the treat to enable the sit to happen.

Asking for the sit with one hand, keeping the treat in the closed fist of another is so much better. He will nudge at it (I of course tell him no sternly) and now has he to make more of a physical effort to move his head to look at me before I give the treat...under his chin and you're right he can't lunge for it.

Thanks. That's a huge improvement and actually harder work for the both of us to get right.

It's just the biting that worries me the most. Whilst I am sure it's normal puppy biting, I wouldn't want to ignore it completely and end up with a problem as he's older.

I am putting alot of pressure on myself to have him better trained than Jasper was. I think I should take a chill pill!

 

[Henny]

patches, I have a 13 week old puppy could you let me know what kind of bone to get from the butchers? He is teething lots!! Also my puppy is a JRTx do you know if you have to limit time according to size? THanks!!

 

[Spudlet]

OK, is he biting or nipping?

Puppies will nip until they learn their manners - a bite I would see as much more serious, leaving red marks or even drawing pinpricks of blood.

With the growling - Henry too can growl like a loon playing tug of war, he is just playing though, not being aggressive. It's one of the reasons we don't play tug though.

Henry will give things up to me in the house - BUT if he feels threatened he too nips and he did get me once or twice at first. Using a growly voice could be making him feel more threatened, so he defends himself - and you can see how it becomes a vicious circle, escalating as you both get crosser! You need to be totally calm and matter of fact about the whole thing.

When you take his bone away - swap it for something else. Also get him used to having it taken away and given back immediately so he does not feel that he has to guard his toys and bones, which is what it sounds like at the moment. I still play this with Henry now - he hands over Ducky, he gets it straight back, so he feels no need to guard it from me - and I can therefore remove anything he grabs when I need to.

Does your vet do puppy classes? These might be a good idea if so, worth asking the question.

It's hard to know through a screen but I don't think he sounds abnormal - just a bit full of himself!

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
patches, I have a 13 week old puppy could you let me know what kind of bone to get from the butchers? He is teething lots!! Also my puppy is a JRTx do you know if you have to limit time according to size? THanks!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Nooo idea! The vet just said to get him a "clean bone" from the butchers. It's uncooked, obviously, and has had the meat stripped from it. I guess it's a portion of thigh bone.

I'm sure Harvey would've chewed at it all night, but I wanted him to know it's my bone that I allow him to chew for a designated period of time. I'm not sure how long he could be allowed to remain with the bone at all.

Never fed a bone before as our old dog wouldn't chew them. He's sniff at one and walk away.

 

[Patches]

I think it's normal really....if I put my logical head on. The mouthing and nipping when playing are just him wanting to play with me in the way he would play with his litter mates....I think?

Just occasionally, say when he's biting your trouser legs, it's impossible to get him to let go with any command, but then at 11 weeks old I wouldn't expect him to be "spot on" with any "dead", "drop" etc command at all. He is playing tug of war against the resistance of our weight. Hubby has picked him up a few times, when he's done as I've been going to answer the door etc (as he grabs the back of my leg so it's hard to get at him myself). As hubby picks him up he turns and bites him. I just want/need to know how I should actually be dealing with these things so I can begin to correctly establish the do's and don't ground rules in his mind.

Again, someone tell me this is normal and I'll stop fretting. He is always told a firm no and we always replace our hand/feet/clothing with something he can actually chew and tell him he's a good boy when his attention focusses on the acceptable object.

I was spoilt with Jasper and he is my only comparison really. The Collie dog has never been an indoor "pet", but she would only nip during play....never with any associated growl or the lunge towards you with mouth wide open ready to bite.

I'm not particularly worried in an "oh my God my puppy's a monster" kind of way. I'm worried in a "Oh my God I hope I get this right now to instil good behaviour in him as a mature dog".

I have the number of "dogskool" who the vet recommends. He can't go until he's had his jabs though.

Frightened of failure! Jasper was soooo dumb though in comparison. I bought him a bone once...he sniffed it and walked away. When I say he never chewed anything, ever....I meant it!

 

[Spudlet]

Oh dear that brings back memories of being marooned at the top of the garden with a 10wk old lab puppy swinging off my shoelaces!

And he didn't turn into a monster

It does sound very much like he's playing with you like another puppy.

If he grabs at the back of your trousers and you turn to face him, what does he do? If Henry did this to me, I would turn to face him and tell him 'no' in the way Hen described, in this case he's not being defensive about his bone, he's being a cheeky pup! Or.... you could try stepping back sharply so he moves back to avoid being squished (obvs don't tread on him...but he won't know that's not what's going to happen!). Rather than having someone else remove him, I would try to do it yourself if possible, so he will learn to respect your space.

He is clearly a bright little thing, I reckon you should be able to train him to turn his paw to all sorts if you can channel that!

 

[Patches]

I can't turn to face him when he's attached to my trouser leg....he just moves around with it. It's quite funny really as you are marooned, in much the way you describe, as you can't really get at him (well I'm not overly nimble anyway) and he moves with you. I've gone back, forwards, turned. He just stays attached!

He's a killer really....makes me laugh...but then I know giggling about it isn't the correct response. I do need to find a way of dealing with it too.

They're blighters, that's for sure! I'm starting to realise just how much of an airhead the other dog really was. He was just a giant hearth rug!

I am hoping to be able to channel his energy. Maybe him and the Collie can do pairs fetching of cows! That could be an interesting partnership!

 

[Spudlet]

Oh Harvey - that's making me laugh too, that's half the trouble isn't it?! He's got such a superfun game with Mum right now and you can't get him - yipppeeeee!

He does need to learn that this is a no no as you say..... hmmmm, will try to think of a new plan..... between us all we must be able to outwit one teeny pup, right? Right?

 

[Patches]

If I could bend my top half 180 degrees, whilst touching my heels with my finger tips...I'd be fine!

We've just had a game of fetch with me running after and fetching the toy. He joined in. I've left him playing with it now.

I am really looking forward to getting to dogskool where I can have an external pair of eyes watch us and tell me where I'm going wrong or if I am beginning to tackle things in the correct manner.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Lots of good advice!

To be honest, I am not a big fan of clickers, I don't think there is anything they can do that you cannot do with the voice, but that is just my opinion and I know loads of people who have used them with great success.

He is still a baby puppy so I would not stress it at this stage.
Simple things to remember are ignore bad behaviour and reward good. If a pup is chewing me (anyone's pup

) I will physically stop them (calmly) and place them a short distance away from me and repeat ad nauseum. When they come over calmly, praise.
If it gets silly, I remove them, say no, and perhaps remove them from the room for a few minutes.
Did you try the tip from (I think it was Booboos?) or emitting a high pitched shriek, to intimate that he had hurt you, as his littermates would do?

As regards focus, you are doing the right thing in trying to introduce it.
Are you keeping the treat (or your closed hand) up to your face to encourage his gaze up there?
I was told to always 'praise up' and make his head come up for the treat rather than handing it down to him but if he is lungeing for it then that is another story.
I have seen lots of tricks, I know one guy who holds the food between his teeth and 'spits' it to the dog to encourage the dog to look at his face, a lot of people also wear baseball caps with little ball-holders in the brim

Basically, you want something? You look at me.

As regards the toy, I am the wrong person to ask, I would prefer them to rag it and not let go then run off with it

This is why I prefer older pups

 

[RobinHood]

Lots of good advice on this thread I just have 2 ideas you could try. My lurcher is clicker trained but over a period of time I changed from the clicker to a bridge word, I chose "good". It means I don't have to carry a clicker around and I can instantly mark any desirable behaviour and he knows a treat (or these days a tickle behind the ears) will soon follow.

The other thing is that the trainers at the clicker training class advocated throwing treats on the floor instead of giving them by hand. I have to say I didn't follow it through as we have 4 dogs and I could see it ending in a fight, but other people in the class had good results. The 2 people in our class with labradors gave up with food rewards altogether as the dogs just couldn't concentrate!

 

[Patches]

I did hold the treat up and close to my face, but after reading Henny's advice I kept the treat low in a closed hand which meant he really has to lift his head to gaze at me. It cannot be just a flick of the eyes. He will look at me either way now, but I guess he learned it the more simpler way with the treat close to me.

I have, at the first time of asking, managed to get him to sit calmly and look at me when I'm holding his food bowl before I place it down for him. I felt that was a huge step as he's really hungry at feed times and I've always kept our "training sessions" separate from meal times. I shall do it every time now. Of course, I need to move on to "trust" so he doesn't try and jump in it as I place it down.....Rome wasn't built in a day eh?

He's had a lovely fuss from me tonight. He's not normally fussy. Tends to see me as someone who feeds and plays with him. When he's tired he tends to take himself off to the crate to sleep. I realised this is a good thing, but it did make me realise he never seeks attention solely for affection. I offer it during play, but he never seeks it.

Soo, I was pleasantly surprised tonight when he jumped up at me as I sat down. I scooped him up and made a fuss of him. He's discovered he actually quite likes having his ears tickled. He fell asleep on me for half an hour. It was bliss. Calm, peaceful puppy cuddles!

I think I have the potential for a very good dog in Harvey. I am stressing about ruining him as these weeks are so formative in his social development. It's hard finding that balance between discipline, play and affection. I am determined he'll be a well rounded, well trained soul in due course.

I did try the squealing for a while but it didn't make him stop. I wondered, perhaps wrongly, if me squealing could actually imprint on his mind that he is stronger than me and I am weak?

 

[Spudlet]

I would say it's more a case of 'Wow! Squeaky noises!This is REALLY EXCITING!!!! Nom nom nom nom...'

Harvey will be ok - Henry and I skipped all of this and he's doing ok now

 

[CorvusCorax]

I've never used the squealing personally but it seemed like a better way of doing things for a timid puppy as my way might seem a bit overbearing

All of these methods are dependent on the dog, you have had a lot of good advice and it is a matter of tallying it with the type of dog he is.

I have based a lot of training around food this past while. Obviously a play-driven dog is probably easier to train but things like hand feeding and making a dog 'work' for food also have their place.

Like I say, don't stress it, as with other emotions, stress, expectation and confusion can filter through to the dog, try to be calm and confident in all that you do with him.
If I find myself getting frustrated or at a loss, I will put the dog away and leave them for ten minutes so that it does not transfer to them.
And try not to rush him with too many things at once, ten minute sessions a few times a day is enough to be going on with, concentrating on a small number of things.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I understand the feeling of not wanting to do the same mistakes with Harvey as you did with Jasper,

don't worry about that, there is plenty enough of mistakes out there for you to do without ever needing to repeat yourself and do the same one...

It isn't making the same mistakes that I worry about, it is all the new ones I might do that I worry about, the old ones I have at least figured out how to deal with.





I can understand if you worry about Harvey being a dominant pup and that you worry about being able to prove to him that you're his leader but you can do that on many ways.

This far I've had 7 puppies myself and altogether I can count the number of times they've growled at me, when I have wanted to take something from them, on both my hands fingers (some of them never growled so I thought about saying one hand but I'm not completely sure, maybe it have happened 6 or 7 times) but then I usually have so many gnaw bones for my puppies that it is almost hard to find the floor, why should they bother about growling over some strange idea I have, when they can just grab the next bone instead?


Teach him that you're the leader by walking like a marching soldier, straight back, chin up and eyes looking straight towards where you want to go, even when it is just for walking between your own kitchen and your living room (if someone in a wheelchair reads this, hopefully you can still do the chin up and eyes looking straight at your "target").
Have you ever seen an Alpha wolf randomly stroll around with a sloppy posture? Walk like a leader and you will soon convince your puppy that you're a leader worthy of following.


I know it is difficult to know from a text on a forum, maybe you have an unusually super dominant growling Cocker puppy but also puppies who feel unsafe and confused can growl, are you sure he growls because he is dominant?
What if he growls because he does feel confused with you and it has nothing at all to do with him being a runt and fighting with his ten siblings, and then when he feels confused you tell him "No"?

That is why the really high pitched squeal is better because dominant or not, a sane puppy should let go. However my mother is hopeless on squealing, if I do it they have released immediately, my mother more screams and not in an enough high pitch tone, so the puppies just thinks she is playing with them...



When he growls you can just hold onto him or sit next to him until he stops, then he learns that you're so much higher in rank you don't care about his growling (imagine that his growling to you is no more important than hearing a faint wind), he learns that growling doesn't make him get it his way without that you still only let him leave, when you decide so.
That is what is important, that we don't teach them that they can get it their way by growling at us.


Good luck.

 

[Patches]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the feeling of not wanting to do the same mistakes with Harvey as you did with Jasper,

don't worry about that, there is plenty enough of mistakes out there for you to do without ever needing to repeat yourself and do the same one...

It isn't making the same mistakes that I worry about, it is all the new ones I might do that I worry about, the old ones I have at least figured out how to deal with.





I can understand if you worry about Harvey being a dominant pup and that you worry about being able to prove to him that you're his leader but you can do that on many ways.

This far I've had 7 puppies myself and altogether I can count the number of times they've growled at me, when I have wanted to take something from them, on both my hands fingers (some of them never growled so I thought about saying one hand but I'm not completely sure, maybe it have happened 6 or 7 times) but then I usually have so many gnaw bones for my puppies that it is almost hard to find the floor, why should they bother about growling over some strange idea I have, when they can just grab the next bone instead?


Teach him that you're the leader by walking like a marching soldier, straight back, chin up and eyes looking straight towards where you want to go, even when it is just for walking between your own kitchen and your living room (if someone in a wheelchair reads this, hopefully you can still do the chin up and eyes looking straight at your "target").
Have you ever seen an Alpha wolf randomly stroll around with a sloppy posture? Walk like a leader and you will soon convince your puppy that you're a leader worthy of following.


I know it is difficult to know from a text on a forum, maybe you have an unusually super dominant growling Cocker puppy but also puppies who feel unsafe and confused can growl, are you sure he growls because he is dominant?
What if he growls because he does feel confused with you and it has nothing at all to do with him being a runt and fighting with his ten siblings, and then when he feels confused you tell him "No"?

That is why the really high pitched squeal is better because dominant or not, a sane puppy should let go. However my mother is hopeless on squealing, if I do it they have released immediately, my mother more screams and not in an enough high pitch tone, so the puppies just thinks she is playing with them...



When he growls you can just hold onto him or sit next to him until he stops, then he learns that you're so much higher in rank you don't care about his growling (imagine that his growling to you is no more important than hearing a faint wind), he learns that growling doesn't make him get it his way without that you still only let him leave, when you decide so.
That is what is important, that we don't teach them that they can get it their way by growling at us.


Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Love the first paragraph....how very true!

Perhaps I am like your mother and hopeless at squealing, because he just doesn't let go when I do it.

I will endeavour to perfect the art of "girlie squeals" and report back in due course.

Thanks for all the advice today Finny, and everyone else.

I felt I needed some guidance before I can head into dogskool in a couple of weeks.

 

[puddleshark]

When I first got my Springer pup he used to go into an absolute frenzy of attacking my legs, yapping and nipping. I'm used to Springers but I really thought I'd got a nutter this time. I was right.

My pup has gradually become less frenzied, (though at 22 months I'm still having problems with him being possessive over items). Quiet things down when he goes into leg-attack mode. Be still, be boring, ask him to lie down in a low voice, then give him a treat and make a (quiet) fuss of him when he lies down.

 

[Patches]

Finny - I think I now have the squeal down to a fine art. It's sooo loud and high pitched that I think half the dogs in the County can hear it! He surprises me because, yes you were right, he WILL let go! Not only does he let go but he goes all creepy and doe eyed at me!

We also tried a different tact with the "retrieve" a toy game. I had three toys and threw them in succession. I would squeak them and get him excited. Ask for sit, tell him he's a good boy and then throw the toy for him. He would eagerly run after it and bring it back. I fussed him like mad and then started squeaking the next toy to get him interested....he would drop the first. Ask for sit and start all over again! No battle.

Hopping_Robin - We've had a play at recall outside today. I only had mini-jacks for a treat, I showed him the bag at the door and asked for sit before giving him one. I then took him outside, so he knew I had the treats before we set off. He came to me every time, and even recalled to Duncan who had nothing but a fuss for him. Very impressed! Infact, Duncan restrained him at one point whilst I ran away and he was crying and wriggling to get to me, even before I called him. Cupboard love, I tell thee, cupboard love!

Henny - Closed fist for treats works wonderfully because I can actually make a closed fist and he thinks I have a treat, even if I don't. I have managed today, without a treat to get him to sit, down, sit, down, sit all in rapid succession before I found a treat from my pocket for him. Very impressed. He will now always lift his head to look at me and feeding the treat under his chin means he has not lunged for it once today.

Every time I call him to me, he now sits (expecting his treat). He did this with callers to the house today too. I like that...no leaping up at you!


He has followed me around the house with me saying heel, whilst showing him a treat. As we walk I can slow the pace right down and say "sit" and he just sits there looking up at me. HUGE fuss and a treat for that. We did that twice, just to see if it was a fluke. It wasn't.

I think I'm going to stick with the voice/hand commands and treats. It's working thus far.