Liver Damage

[Donald_03]

My horse has just had a blood test which showed raised liver enzymes, he then had a liver function test as a result of the blood test which also turned out not to be good. He is now having a liver biposy and i just wondered if anyone had a horse with the same thing and had had a liver biopsy and what the results where.

Any information would be appreciated.

 

[cm2581]

I've never had any experience of liver damage but my first port of call if I did would be Global Herbs as they have many products for support in this situation. In conjunction with your vet of course!!

Best of luck.

 

[Happel]

Hiya, my horse has been diagnosed with liver damage, but no biopsy as we are quite certain it is something she has eaten (although we are not certain what and have not found anything yet).

The biopsy will show if it is tumor/digested/toxins/infection... And then you can medicate accordingly... Mine is on HB formula and milkthistle which have improved her bloods significantly. Am doing final test tomorrow and working with yard to find out cause...

 

[Donald_03]

Thankyou for your advice. We should find out the results of his biopsy soon.

 

[threeponies]

There have been lots of posts about liver damage recently, my own experience of it did not have a good outcome. My pony had a biopsy that showed he had had hepatitis, we still don't know the cause and he recovered slightly then suddenly went downhill and had to be PTS. His enzymes were through the roof though, > 1000 in a normal range of 15-25.

Good luck with your horse

 

[cobgirlie]

Milk Thistle seeds are fabulous!! My lad had some low grade Liver damage and 2 months course of milk thistle sorted him out. My vet was amazed by the difference and now recommends it to all customers with this problem.

 

[riding_high]

my horse had a liver biopsy, it showed that he had liver fluke. his liver was quite badly damaged.
basically i was told to move off the land he was on and then they gave him an injection to 'kill' the fluke, i could see an improvement pretty quickly but it was about a month before he was back to being able to eat all his food, not heavy breathe unless he'd charged around and things like that.

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

While you and your vet work out the cause of the liver damage you can greatly help your horse by immediately putting him on a diet as follows: LOW PROTEIN, since damaged livers cannot process protein very well, but what protein you DO give your horse must be the highest quality you can afford. Then MILK THISTLE since it has been shown to support liver function. Then YEA SAC as this aids hind gut digestion which is often compromised in liver damaged horses, and it also acts as a very mild appetite stimulant. SMALL, FREQUENT feeds so that you don't overload the liver. And finally NO OILS of any kind or conditioning feeds as a damaged liver won't be able to process these fats. If it's still going on in the summer, you may have to keep him out of strong sunlight. If the damage is due to ragwort then the remaining liver function is all he'll ever have as livers cannot regenerate after ragwort poisoning. If the condition is reversible then your horse should recover full liver function in time. A final alert, a damaged liver may mean that your horse's blood does not clot as normal if he injures himself so keep an eye out x

 

[Donald_03]

thankyou for all your comments. For the moment he is on his normal diet along with milkthistle and heptasile. We are just waiting for the results of his biopsy, he is starting to look a bit glum and miserable though, not sure if this is to do with his liver or whether its just the weather and the lack of turnout he has

 

[riding_high]

how long did they say it would be before the results would be back?

my horse would stand at the gate huffing and puffing, looked really down, aged almost overnight (his face went grey and he looked 'old' in his eyes). once they knew the cause they were able to medicate accordingly and he started to get back to his old self fairly quickly.

 

[thundersprite]

my mares no on the mend but its been a year long battle with her,
shes been on antiboitics, 90 steroid tablets daily, but neither worked, heptoysel and a human blood pressure tablet which really helped get her liver functioning,
she got colics , left feed, lost weight, field paced, stood head down, collapsed during exercise until we knew the cause as we thought she had ulcers and scoping her and ultrasounding her we found out along with a belly tap and loads of bloods, and was really poorly
she under went 3 liver biopsys but they never found the cause only helped specialists with her treatment
there is a risk of bleeding when they do the biopsy but my mare was fine all you will see is a tiny shaved square and i tiny like needle point covered in blue spray
you want a low protein diet, milk thistle and yea-sac, my mare was also on vi-sorbin and avoid feed high in oils as the liver has to work hard to process them
my mare before showing she was ill

after loosing weight and developed coarse coat and has lost her sparkle in her eyes

and now just being backed

 

[Donald_03]

The results of his biopsy were meant to be back the day after he had it done but its been 4 days now and still no results :/
he is looking ok, a little glum but not too bad... the only thing that does worry me is that whenever i put him back in his box he rubs himself all over the walls and bars !! :-/

 

[LazyS]

The results of his biopsy were meant to be back the day after he had it done but its been 4 days now and still no results :/
he is looking ok, a little glum but not too bad... the only thing that does worry me is that whenever i put him back in his box he rubs himself all over the walls and bars !! :-/

I have been watching this post with interest as have a similar problem with one of mine, ANY NEWS Donald_03? I got some Milk Thistle for mine, liquid from Holland & Barrett - it says to give 1ml 3 times a day for a human, but not sure what to give a horse - starting gently and giving one morning and night in feed - anyone any ideas (he is 15hh and about 480kg)? And if you don't want to give protein what an earth do you feed? EVERYTHING has protein in it. I am feeding Readi-Grass and Alpha-A and Pink Powders (and hay) he is entire and usually gets ridden about once a week, thought that Alfa-A would have some in but didn't think Readi-Grass would but it is higher than A-A. Anyway I ran it by the vet and she said that was fine, for now. A liver bi-opsy has been suggested but he is well at the moment, although the liver enzymes are higher than they should be, he is on the fat side not wasting away and has the most fantastic sheen to his coat even though he is white (not grey), he's a snowcap appaloosa (with a few spots and roaning). He is feeling well and you wouldn't think anything is wrong with him but he was quite bad at the beginning of November, high temp, high everything and looking very miserable (and not keen to eat his food) - got vet straight out as thought it might be serious. We had just had bad weather and his field is very exposed (with shelter at the bottom but guess what - he stands at the top!), there was also a mass drop of leaves from the trees - but it wasn't Atypical Myopathy, thankfully, which is what I had been thinking (after reading about it on here)!
Going to re-assess the situation after Christmas, unless his demeanor changes meanwhile.

 

[Darkly_Dreaming_Dex]

* VERY LONG POST ALERT*

Tuesday 11th May this year,my vet came to see Dex for suspected ringworm

but he wasnt happy with how his coat looked so wanted to do a blood test- i wasnt too fussed at that time but went along with my vets recommendation..
48 hours later, my vet rang back and i was devastated to learn that his Gama Gt should be max 28 and he has 626 Alkaline something isnt 424 its 1012 plus Dehydrated (??) muscle enzymes/protein levels all wrong . This was followed by a further test (GLDH?) done at the lab to establish which bit of the liver is affected. He told me that some parts can be supported through protein balanced diet and supplements but other parts were irretrievable

Vet was “VERY concerned why it appears to have deteriated so suddenly” especially as we don’t have ragwort filled fields and he has been mine since 2006.

The plan was to run the liver function test, change diet and add supplements ...

He rang me on the Saturday to say that this test was really not good high bile level in his blood indicated 2nd degree liver failure so he was on 4 small low protein feeds a day with milk thistle & sugarbeet-unmolassed for hydration and first thing on 17th May- Monday, he had a liver scan and biopsy.The vet wanted the sample in the lab for that afternoon..

So the vet came to scan/biopsy Dex.When i went to get him in i was almost pleased that Dex took one look at me with a headcollar and marched off in the opposite direction He came back when i rattled his bowl
Put him in the barn with io and Jacob for moral support- picture:

io on left, Dex in middle, Jacob on right.

Dex was sedated, Vet clipped a patch high on his offside flank and the girth groove on near side. He ran the ultrasound over him and the near side looked ok. the offside had a ragged edge like it had been hacked with scissors..blood flow was minimal and the whole of that side was brighter than normal indicating a level of fibrosis
Vet gave him a big jab anaesthetic and OH was a great nurse helping with the biopsy tools Vet made a 1/2" cut and got the worlds biggest needle out- i decided not to watch any further as fainting wouldnt have been helpful Out of the corner of my eye i could see something that looked like scissor handles and looked away quickly Dex was quietly snoring as the vet was just removing the 3rd core sample- OH nipped out the door and Dex threw up his head and barged out the door, mowing down OH and dragging me with the vet desperately trying to stop him. Thankfully he didnt get very far..the giant needle was carefully removed, a further scan to check it hadnt caused any damage in the excitement ( it hadnt thank God!) so 2 staples were put in and we left him to sleep off the rest. 10 mins later Dex was hammering on the stable door demanding to go out

Picture of the biopsy site:
http://gallery.me.com/roger.edmunds#100628/IMG_5238&bgcolor=black

Vet said to wait til we get the results back before we blood test the other horses as it will give an idea what to look for. He didnt think it was liver fluke but tested for it anyway..I got results at the end of the week and it showed that Dexter's liver was rallying all enzymes were lower and the bile in the blood has significantly decreased- thats the good news...the following day i noticed Dex swelling up in his back legs

I rang the vet and he said "keep an eye on him, its probably nothing and i will come tomorrow"

tomorrow came, and his front had swollen too:

Vet took one look and said "******" several times "He has something wrong with his heart" and his breathing and heart rate were abnormal too

There was nothing to indicate a heart problem in the bloods yet he had ventricular tachycardia.heart beat rate of 50 per minute,temperature is 38.5 C, 28 breaths per minute in the heat decreasing to 38C and 16 breaths at night. . So he went off to the clinic 26th May for an ECG, cardio ultrasound, diretics and find an appropiate drug regime. The vet cannot understand, unless its sheer bad luck, how he could develop a heart and liver problem independantly yet they are there. Dex was 5 stage vetted by Peter Scott Dunn himself in 2006 and his heart was fine then so whatever it is has come on fairly suddenly. Dex was full of himself last time i rode- the day before the vet's first visit and hunts for 3-4 hours, 3 times a fortnight over winter without tiring so is usually very fit.

We got to the clinic, wired him up and Dex's ECG is fast but the wave pattern is normal Ultrasound showed his heart has a touch of scelerosis on the left side but "nothing of clinical significance" so he has a good heart but still doesn't solve the mystery of the swelling :

He had a steroid injection- i was freaking out at that as he had bad laminits when i purchased him and it took a long time to nurse him back to health He was also put on 50 furesamide tablets a day, this was accompanied by 68 steroid tablets a day AND Heptosyl tablets AND Liver Active liquid supplement plus Kossolian Blood Salts for the dehydration..Thank god he is such a piggy cob and shovelled down his food no matter how many tablets were stirred in

Within 2 days he looked much better- i had to put factor 50 sunblock on his sores to stop the burning:

Here he is in August with OH:

We missed the BSHA championships he had qualified for as a LW cob but the vet said i could bring him back into work and if all ok then he would be allowed to start hunting.

We managed to get 5 days autumn hunting in , missed the opening meet but went upto the central vale Tuesday where he joyfully pulled my arms out for two hours and then complained at being taken home so early

Even carted me over a rather big rail for a 14.3 cob!http://www.evespics.co.uk/2010 even...undhill, Kimblewick 9.11.10/HTML/img_7518.htm

Deepest, heartfelt gratitude to Thames Valley Equine for ALL their outstanding efforts to save his life Things will never be normal but they are manageable..

 

[Donald_03]

The results came back but they don't know what it is, but whatever it is has been and is still affecting his liver.. they have thought it could possibly be a infection somewhere else in the body but not sure. he is on antibiotics and will be blood tested in a couple of weeks time to check if he is responding.. so fingers crossed for now

 

[Darkly_Dreaming_Dex]

The results came back but they don't know what it is, but whatever it is has been and is still affecting his liver.. they have thought it could possibly be a infection somewhere else in the body but not sure. he is on antibiotics and will be blood tested in a couple of weeks time to check if he is responding.. so fingers crossed for now

<<<vibes>> he gets better but it does take time..Vet ended up putting chronic acute hepatitis on the claim form but he thinks it was triggered by some form of toxin/poison yet the other 4 horses sharing pasture/food/water were all fine?

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

Please peeps, liver damaged horses need to be fed a LOW protein diet, not a NO protein diet! All animals need some protein in their diet but damaged livers struggle to process high levels of protein. So what protein you DO feed must be of the highest quality you can afford. I would strongly recommend anyone with a liver damaged horse to contact D&H feed helpline as they have been working directly with Prof Knottenbelt (world expert on liver damage in horses) to develop specific diets for such horses. As I posted earlier:

- LOW protein diet, what protein you DO feed should be the highest quality possible
- NO oils or conditioning mixes, ever, as damaged livers cannot break down the fat
- Milk Thistle but I'd recommend a horsey one to rule out under-dosing. D&H 1st class
- Yea Sac, which aids hind gut function in liver damaged horses
- Break daily feed allowance down into as many tiny ones as possible
- In summer, keep out of sun as the horse will burn dreadfully

 

[Darkly_Dreaming_Dex]

Please peeps, liver damaged horses need to be fed a LOW protein diet, not a NO protein diet! All animals need some protein in their diet but damaged livers struggle to process high levels of protein. So what protein you DO feed must be of the highest quality you can afford. I would strongly recommend anyone with a liver damaged horse to contact D&H feed helpline as they have been working directly with Prof Knottenbelt (world expert on liver damage in horses) to develop specific diets for such horses. As I posted earlier:

- LOW protein diet, what protein you DO feed should be the highest quality possible
- NO oils or conditioning mixes, ever, as damaged livers cannot break down the fat
- Milk Thistle but I'd recommend a horsey one to rule out under-dosing. D&H 1st class
- Yea Sac, which aids hind gut function in liver damaged horses
- Break daily feed allowance down into as many tiny ones as possible
- In summer, keep out of sun as the horse will burn dreadfully

Great post BoF, you sent me the same advice when Dex was first diagnosed and i found the D&H helpline to be excellent for devising a suitable diet. Dex has Safe & Sound with their milk thistle ( i bought a massive sack for £80 ish and it will last me a year) I posted the pictures of Dex to show how they can burn- my problem was the ringworm meant he couldnt wear a sun/bug rug and i couldnt keep him in because of the swelling from the heart problem- if he was stationary for more than an hour, his swelling got so bad that the skin would split on his legs as he moved The vet kept coming and saying if it wasnt for Dex's spirit/lack of depression he would have been PTS in the first week

 

[Donald_03]

my vet has not told me to change his diet so for now i will follow what he says as he knows the horse... but thankyou for all your advice, should he detriate anymore i will speak to the vet about his diet. thankyou

 

[Donald_03]

they are thinking it could possibly be a gut infection which has now attacked the liver and so is on antibiotics to try to kill the infection (if there is one! ) ... my vet is not enterially sure it is this though as he is showing no other sigsn of problem with his gut. Has anyone else ever heard of this happenign to a horse ?? any information would be gratefully recieved.
thankyou in advance.

 

[Bramley]

My yard all went down with liver damage due to mycotoxin poisoning about three years ago. My vet had another two yards of forty horses per yard with the same problem. This was due to wet conditions in the summer. The hay thought looking brilliant was high in DON or Vomitoxin as was the straw. Lots of horses in my area had the same problem. They had GGT of up to 1100. I changed all the hay and straw and blood test regulary. All are fine liver tests now. When i posted at the time i got a lot of rude answers and people thought i was selling something!

 

[riding_high]

i understand you not wanting to change the diet just yet but i'd speak to the vet about changing it, he will know that certain foods/supplements can cause more problems and others can 'revive' the liver.
when my boy had his liver fluke i was also informed to watch what i fed in the way of iron, too much iron would cause more problems.

 

[Bramley]

Have your hay analised for Mycotoxins. Take the horse of straw and bed on shavings.Try ryegrass hay or haylage . Re blood test when you have changed hay after a month. The levels should be getting lower if it is Mycotoxin poisoning. This has been a massive problem in my area.

 

[Miss L Toe]

The condition PSSM requires a diet if low carb hi fat, so wait for results of biopsy before adjusting diet

 

[Donald_03]

thankyou for all your advice and info. His next blood test is this week so will wait for the reaults to see if the antibiotics are working and depending on those will speak to the vet about the diet he is on, as my vet knows what he's on and has not yet mentioned it i am not too concerened about that affecting him too much. I am starting to get worried about him as he is no himself at all....normally he is so lively but now he just looks miserbale, his eyes are sad, he stands in the corner of his box, he stands at the gate to come in from the field as soon as you put him out, and this horse could not normally stand without being out... he is also starting to get very nippy which is very unlike him as he is the most placid horse i have ever met... and he is very very hungry, i am aware he doesn't have a lot of grass to eat in the field but i have never seen him or any other horse like it ... he is desperate for food.. tires to barge out his box if you go in when its near dinner time or someone is preparing his dinner, although he has always enjoyed his food he has never wanted it this much, and i'm not sure if this is good or bad ... has anyone ever had any experience with any of these things with any of their horses.... any help would be most gratefully recieved... thankyou in advance and sorry for the long post

 

[Amos]

Donald-03 I have only just seen this post. I hope things are OK.

I have a pony who has severe liver damage. They think that he had an infection in his gut that travelled to his liver. His results were so high that they couldn't be read on the vets machines. They could not understand how he was still standing. He looked completely normal and this only came to light through a routine blood test.

After all the hospital scans and biopsies etc he spent 6 months on massive amounts of steriods and antibiotics with routine blood tests. (Costing £5000). The liver was still going down hill and there was hardly any good liver left. The decision was made that he should come of treatment. I was given the option of PTS or giving him a last couple of weeks. (Bare in mind he looked and acted completely normal). I decided to give him an amazing last few weeks as I was assured that he was not suffering and that we would know the time had come. (100% backed by vet). I was told he 1000% had no more than a couple of weeks.

I put him out on fab pasture. Two years later he's running around (although retired) fit as a fiddle (as such). He is on a normal diet and treated normally. The vets are amazed and can only conclude that whatever liver is left is enough to keep him going and whatever was attacking it has stopped. I need to manage sunburn in the summer but thats about it.

Because of this, I will never be able to pass him on and so it is a financial burden, however, I believe that while he is well I cannot pts purely because it doesn't suit my pocket. He was a good HOYS showpony and has earnt his keep.

So there is hope, and just sometimes the vets don't have all the answers (they are human!) although I would think seriously before not following their advice!

Hope you pony is recovering/feeling better.

 

[Donald_03]

thankyou Amos for the info... he just had another blood test and although some results went down others have gone up sicnificatanly... he too looks fine in himself (other than the dopey eyes) ... he does tire very quickly however ...hhe is on his third lot of medication and the vets can still not work out what is wrong with him .... the vets have not mentioned him being pts and i will do whatever i can for him first before even considering it because he is reletevly normal and still eating... your story fills me with a but more hope knowing that he may be able to pull through.... he is a strong horse ans before this had never had a day sick ...

 

[Donald_03]

where he has been clipped to have his biopsy he has come up with loads of bumps under the skin but they are only on one side of his body and i can only see/feel them on the shaved part :/ does anyone know what this can be or have ever seen any horse with this before ?? please let me know if you have as i am very worried as he is losing weight aswell

 

[Amos]

Donald-03 Just a thought, but when mine came back he developed round/strange patches on the areas that had been clipped for biopsy. I was convinced that he had caught ringworm from the hospital as it looked identical. My vet was miffed as well but he was treated just in case as it was really strange.

Turned out they were marks from the clips that had held the surgical fabric onto his sides. Even now two years later you can still see the marks. Hope that yours is that simple.

 

[Donald_03]

that is very intresting this may be the same thing ... my vet is coming out soon so i will get him to have a look at him and see what he things about it all... thankyou for all your help and advice