liver damage

[Kelpie]

long story short, I've just taken on a pony as a bit of a rescue project. The little pony was clearly in a bad way so we had bloods done and vet has said that bloods indicate liver damage - tho fortunately not (yet) liver failure.

Vet has recommended hermaticin (excuse spelling)/ a blood tonic thing/ milk thistle/ anti-biotics, so we've started on these. Plan is to try these all for a couple of weeks and then do bloods again to see if things are going the right way or not.

However, I've never had to deal with liver damage before so I'm just after stories/ experiences from everyone on this? Any suggestions/ tips - and hopefully some positive stories for me??

thanx

 

[Box_Of_Frogs]

I took on a desperate neglect case, a 12 yr old gipsy cob mare with serious liver damage. Blood results were so bad that vets recommended pts. However, I was able to bring her back from the brink with input from Prof Knottenbelt of Liverpool Uni and D&H.

Liver support diet:

Feed little and often. Very low protein in the diet though all animals need some protein so what you do feed must be of the highest quality you can afford. Never ever feed conditioning feeds or oils as a damaged liver won't be able to break these down. Feed Milk Thistle and Yea Sac too as Yea Sac aids hind gut digestion which is often compromised in liver damaged horses. Keep out of the sun in summer as the chlorophyl in the plants the horse eats isn't fully broken down so circulates in the blood and actually attracts the sun like a huge leaf would! Liver damaged horses burn terribly in summer sun and no sun cream will stop it 100%.

Now here's the hard part. A very common cause of liver damage, especially in poor and neglected horses and ponies, is ragwort poisoning. Livers damaged by ragwort cannot recover or regenerate their function. Liver damage is only normally noticed when about 70% of the liver is damaged. And at 76%, it is always fatal. So you will be walking a knife edge with your pony. Any additional things the pony has to deal with eg stress or a virus, can trigger a further downhill spiral. Signs of liver damage are: weight loss, loss of appetite, lethargy, uninterested in life, acute photosensitivity, jaundice, swollen abdomen, standing in a corner banging head against a wall, weakness, staggering, strange vocalisations, self harm and harm to others. If your pony ever gets towards the end of that list, it's grave news as they are end stage symptoms. You would need to make a brave decision long before that as it would otherwise be terribly distressing for both the owner and the horse/pony.

The horse I rescued went on to be backed and enjoyed 4 years of active and happy life before, sadly, her poor damaged liver was simply unable to cope any more and she was quietly put to sleep. If I can help any further, please let me know x

 

[ameeyal]

I had a pony that was diagnoised with liver damage, his symptoms were staggering/ callapsing we think he had eaten some ragwort that the farmer had thrown in the field, he was given viasorbin and made a complete recovery with in a month, he went on for another 7 years and his liver failed him again { he was then 23}

 

[caramel]

this is really interesting as mine had blood tests done which showed a slightly raised liver enzyme count. He's being retested in 2 weeks but is going on a milk thistle supplement, and another one which I can't remember the name of. Vet thinks he may be harbouring something? other than that we're both baffled, so will see what the next lot of tests show. As he's just over the healthy amount I'm not overly worried (yet!).

Ideas? I've found Box of frogs' post very enlightening.

 

[Oberon]

For liver tonics I would use Restore
http://www.globalherbs.co.uk/equine/restore.html

Afterwards you can use a generic herbal tonic

http://www.cotsherb.co.uk/botanical-herbs/herb-powders/milk-thistle-seed-powder/prod_352.html
http://www.cotsherb.co.uk/botanical-herbs/herbs/nettle-herb/prod_368.html
http://www.cotsherb.co.uk/botanical-herbs/herb-powders/dandelion-leaf-powder/prod_173.html
http://www.cotsherb.co.uk/botanical-herbs/herbs/clivers-herb/prod_139.html
http://www.cotsherb.co.uk/botanical-herbs/herb-powders/burdock-root-powder/prod_92.html

or

http://www.equinatural.co.uk/epages/BT3755.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/BT3755/Products/012

You can buy Yea-sacc cheaply here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/YEA-SACC-...r_Equipment&hash=item3f0e7db469#ht_1003wt_952

 

[Alec Swan]

.......

Ideas? I've found Box of frogs' post very enlightening.

With the greatest respect too, and with no wish to offend B_O_F, I found it deeply disturbing. It would seem that to squeeze a few more years of life from a creature who has no chance of recovery, should put the ethics of treating major liver damage, into question.

Alec.

 

[Oberon]

I think it's a bit presumptuous to consider you know more about the horse than BoF?

The horse will have been under vet supervision and could well have made a complete recovery. No one could have known 4 years was all it had left.

The liver can go to the very brink and then regenerate - it's a kick ass organ.

 

[Alec Swan]

I think it's a bit presumptuous to consider you know more about the horse than BoF?

The horse will have been under vet supervision and could well have made a complete recovery. No one could have known 4 years was all it had left.

The liver can go to the very brink and then regenerate - it's a kick ass organ.

Read B_O_F's factual comments below, and I'm sorry to say this, but you're wrong. The strange and interesting thing about a healthy liver, in a human anyway, is that 50% can be removed, for a donor-ship, and within 6-8 weeks, recovery and regeneration are virtually complete. A damaged liver, in humans that's mostly through booze, and in horses through Ragwort poisoning, rarely if ever makes a recovery.

....... Blood results were so bad that vets recommended pts.
.
.
.
.
Livers damaged by ragwort cannot recover or regenerate their function. Liver damage is only normally noticed when about 70% of the liver is damaged. And at 76%, it is always fatal.

.......

Oberon, I don't see my words as being presumptuous, but in the light of the veterinary advice offered, the eventual outcome and the virtually certain prognosis with a horse with advanced liver failure, then again, I wonder at the ethics of prolonging suffering.

I'm sorry, and no matter how we may love our horses, that's how I feel.

Alec.

ps. and just as a foot note, the prolonged handling of ragwort, by humans, with bare hands, can also bring about liver damage. a.

 

[Amos]

With the greatest respect too, and with no wish to offend B_O_F, I found it deeply disturbing. It would seem that to squeeze a few more years of life from a creature who has no chance of recovery, should put the ethics of treating major liver damage, into question.

Alec.

I agree with what you are saying however it is not always clear cut.

I have a pony that we discovered had liver damage only by a routine blood test (having just sold him he was being vetted). He was put on massive amounts of medication (vets choice) to see if we could halt whatever was causing it as in himself he was totally normal. I was lucky that the insurance paid for the £5000 worth of treatment. After several months and worsening bloods it was decided to stop treatment. I was advised he had no more then 2 weeks left but as he was well to let him have a good time. Three years later he is absolutely fine and although retired is living a normal life on a normal diet. His bloods still show he should not be standing.

Obviously it is a totally different matter if your pony isn't well in himself.

 

[Oberon]

Yes - but the horse in question was brought back with assistance from Liverpool Uni.

They were obviously happy to try - are you considering you know more than them about this horse?

 

[Amos]

Yes - but the horse in question was brought back with assistance from Liverpool Uni.

They were obviously happy to try - are you considering you know more than them about this horse?

Is this question aimed at myself or Alec Swan?

 

[Oberon]

Is this question aimed at myself or Alec Swan?

I was replying to Alec.

 

[Kelpie]

thanx for your replies everyone, and B_o_ F_ for sharing your story...... when to pts is a very individual decision and I don't think it's fair for anyone to retrospectively comment on your decision, which is of course now all in the past.

For my own part, the little shetland I've got is surprisingly bright (... considering....) in herself and all the while she remains so, I'd like to do what I can for her. She's got a lot of weight loss and is generally run-down and you can see her belly is swolen, but she has none of the other symptons in terms of trying to self harm, etc.

 

[frazzled]

Our gelding was diagnosed with very raised liver enzymes about a month ago. He had no symptoms other than a photo sensitive reaction. He was absolutely fine in himself. He was put on a low protein diet, milk thistle and yeast sacc. We have just had his second bloods back which whilst not completely normal have shown such marked improvement that the vet no longer wants to biopsy him and we can compete him as normal. In him self he is better than he has ever been.
I know this is a different circumstance to yours but I gthought a positive story mght be encouraging to hear. Good luck with your little fellow.

 

[little_critter]

Posted this on BD a few days ago - here's my story ref liver problems......

As there seems to be a few people on here with horses with high liver enzymes I thought I'd just give you and update.
History:
Pony tested in Aug 11 and had high liver enzymes.
As pony seemed ok in herself vet advised monthly monitoring rather than diving in with anything drastic.
Enzymes were coming down of their own accord with no treatment (except Hepaphyt Gold supplement) until Dec/Jan when they crept back up a bit.
Had a liver biopsy in Jan which showed minimal changes, no scarring, no evidence of ragwort. Pony had a 28 day course of Prednisoline (5mg) tablets, 90 per day.
Test in mid March showed great improvement, GGT was still a little above normal.

Just had a test on Thursday and vet was so pleased with the results she called me on a Saturday! Pony is all back to normal liver enzyme levels.
She is also back to her cheeky old self (I hadn't realised it initially but she had gradually got stuffier and seemed a bit 'down')

I'm just really happy that she's back to normal.
Plan is one more test in early July just in case anything else needs doing before our insurance year is up.

 

[itsonlyme]

The last 4 years of BOF's mares' life were spent living in luxury, happy and spoilt rotten. Yes her diet was carefully monitored, but they were the best years of her life. She had been so so neglected beforehand. Putting her to sleep at diagnosis would have meant her never knowing that life can be nice, no matter how long she had left x

 

[tristar]

it has to be remembered that to care for an animal like that takes unselfish devotion of a staggering degree, knowing that the end outcome is not going to profit the carer.

 

[horse12]

Hi, i wonder if anyone has there horses blood/liver test results & could forward the details so i can compare to my ponies ones..!

Thanks

 

[Janesomerset]

I'm not following what is wrong with treatment which gives an animal four years of happy and well-cared-for life?

 

[thundersprite]

my mare had hepatitis no cause was found loads of treatment steroids 90 tablets a day, month of antiboitics etc
all started off with behavioural issues getting worse and a scoping for ulcers
she then started loosing weight but was put on heptoysel may not have spelt right and a human bp tablet and although i nearly lost her shes a fighter and although 1 blood level still high normal 8-10 hers 55 shes loving life and in work and that was off the scale before and 88 before that
diet has to be managed for life but shes only 8 vet feels it was the neglect she suffered before i had her
she under went 3 liver biopsys too most horses would have given up but as she was fighting we fought with her and she pulled through
her eyes would also go like she was sedated and she had lots of colics at the time too


when she was ill coat so course and thick shes thinner than looks

her last lot of meds that saved her life

last summer after recovering

her yest loose schooling think she will be a cracking M&M working hunter