Liver enzymes and ulcers?

MiniMilton

MiniMilton

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My horse has elevated liver enzymes. Vet thinks it's due to ragworth but I disagree. Is it possible he has ulcers and that has caused liver enzymes to rise? He hasn't lost any weight but I've just realised he's been chewing wood. He's prone to laminitis so my obsession with keeping his weight down may have left him hungry on occasion.
I also see feeding straw is contraindicated for horses with ulcers and I feed him a good bit of oat straw during the summer months as he's such a good doer.
Just curious if there could be a link
 
No idea, sorry, but there are lots of us with horses with high liver enzymes and no idea why, so you aren't alone. If you figure it out let us know!
 
I don't know whether there is a link between liver enzymes and ulcers but I have a very good doer who has had grade 3 pyloric ulcers so it is posible for good doers to get them despite having no classic risk factors so I wouldn't rule them out as a possibility.
 
Thanks a million for the replies. I'll be bringing him to get more bloods soon so I'll ask my vet then. I've been so baffled by the liver enzymes (owned this horse all his life so I know all his history) that I've been bombarding him with questions already. I'm sure he'll see my name come up on his phone and groan
 
My vets the same, think I drive them mad! When you say enzymes are high, which ones and what numbers? Do you make your own hay or buy in? Is your grass prone to crown rust (grass will look reddy brown and your shoes/horses legs will have a rusty powder on them, usually noticed summer autumn)? Do they drink tap water or collected rainwater?
 
Following as my good doer has just come back with raised liver enzymes AGAIN. First batch in December 2013, had antibiotics, but they were still up and down. In March 2014 had biopsy and that came back as nothing wrong with the liver per se. At this point he was on his winter regime - in at night, out in day but only for a few hours, so less pasture more hay.

Also had funny stiff hind limb gait. This improved with more work - BUT he was then on his summer regime so out for much longer and less hay.

September 2014 went for lameness work up - nothing found, but muscle wastage evident and no top line, so vet said to work through it. Liver bloods taken then and levels back down into normal range, all good.

I suspected EPSM and started that diet (not the high oil on, the ALCAR one!). All seemed good although his movement was better he still couldn't bring his hind legs under him like he did before.

Has bloods taken again last week because we had a strangles outbreak at the yard and said to vet, take liver as well just to check - fully expecting it to be ok - and they are "significantly increased again". I was gutted as he seemed so well!

Going to have my hay analysed, as he seems to improve with less hay (in summer), then get worse again in winter when he's on more hay and he's now on steroids and antibiotics for a month.

Anyway, conclusion to this ramble......I'm now suspecting hind gut ulcers - but vet says no as he doesn't have the "usual" ulcer symptons like girthiness, or wind sucking ,etc.....

So sorry no real advice - but I have the high liver enzyme issues and now I'm suspecting hind gut ulcers!
 
I'm also in the high liver enzyme for unknown reasons club. I have to say I'd love to collate everyones blood test results together and see if there are any patterns. There's another horse who is a field mate of mine, his were raised too but they came down a couple of weeks ago as suddenly as they went up. I'm interested to see what my boys do, results back after the weekend.

I have no idea about any link to ulcers though, sorry.
 
Mine has got ongoing liver issues & ulcers (now healed). When the ulcer when healed his liver enzymes dropped. I've found oat straw is the only thing that has helped his levels dropped.
 
MungoMadness said:
I'm also in the high liver enzyme for unknown reasons club. I have to say I'd love to collate everyones blood test results together and see if there are any patterns. There's another horse who is a field mate of mine, his were raised too but they came down a couple of weeks ago as suddenly as they went up. I'm interested to see what my boys do, results back after the weekend.

I have no idea about any link to ulcers though, sorry.
Click to expand...
I've spent today creating a spreadsheet of blood work. So far I have 2 horses on it with EPSM and raised liver enzymes, 1 with liver infection but no PSSM, 1 with PSSM but no liver issues and 1 with liver issues that hasn't been tested for EPSM. If anyone wants me to add their blood work to it and email them a copy once I've collected a few just pm me with your blood work results, management at the time of the blood test, workload and an email address. Now that I have a horse with both liver and EPSM I'm a bit obsessed with enzyme levels. Mine also lacked power behind but showed sacroiliac injury, hock changes and EPSM on top of elevated liver enzymes...poor chap! Do any of you have problems with crown rust on your grass/hay fields? Or water with rainwater collected from buildings?
 
KatPT said:
. Now that I have a horse with both liver and EPSM I'm a bit obsessed with enzyme levels. Mine also lacked power behind but showed sacroiliac injury, hock changes and EPSM on top of elevated liver enzymes...poor chap! Do any of you have problems with crown rust on your grass/hay fields? Or water with rainwater collected from buildings?
Click to expand...

My boy genetically tested positive for EPSM type 1 in October - he's been on the ALCAR diet. But he had liver issues before that, so I'm not sure if the liver issue set off the EPSM or not. Also I did wonder if liver enzymes and muscle enzymes were linked. Funnily enough I soaked his hay in a spring water source piped into our farm (DIY Livery) and I did wonder if it was maybe heavy metal content? I'm having my hay analysed for mineral and nutritional content - if that yields nothing then water will be next port of call!
 
I'm not too up to date with all the terminology but I rooted out the piece of paper from my last conversation with the vet. His GGT (GTT?) was 137 on first test then 2 months later was 172. (Does that sound right? It was just a scrawl on a piece of paper) his ACT decreased from his first test I don't know the levels though and he stopped work after his first test (hind suspensary injury)
I'm now overdue another test. (4 months on)
He has been on legaphyton since the first test

I'm on my phone now so struggling to quote etc but it's a strange coincidence to read about the other hind end injury. The only reason why my horse was tested at all is he was not working to full capacity and I suspected a reoccurrence of old SI injury. Turns out it was a new hind suspensary injury he did while on holidays in the field.

I just felt my usually very willing horse had lost his spark and seemed a bit pissed off and working with lack of impulsion. In hindsight his coat started looking crap 6 months earlier and he was itchy.

Ragworth grows in the field due to neighbours not caring, but I pull every single one obsessively. The hay I have bought the last couple of years has been grown locally. I know the field it was cut in and absolutely no evidence of ragwort. I haven't noticed a burnt thingy on grass or residue on legs however our well water does leave a reddish residue in buckets. However the horses usually live out so they mostly drink the stream water.

What else have I forgotten?
Anyway he still looks pissed off. Just bringing him back into work now and he has a belly but had obviously been chewing wood over the last few months and he has man been stabled only 2-3hrs per day.

What are normal GGT levels and what is fatal range? No idea how bad he actually is

Edited due to stupid autocorrect
 
Last edited:
Just to add something else t the mix on this subject. We lost a mare a couple of years ago, turned out her liver failed, we had no sign of any issue with her at all, it was winter and she dropped condition, seemed generally a little off but nothing major. By the time we thought we should get the vet she was too far gone and went downhill very fast, couple of weeks from ok to unable to stand.

What we know now and didn't then is that the field had sycamore, we beleive she had low grade poisoning from the sycamore over a number of years (she was In The paddock for three years before she died) it's the only thing we can think of as a last year lwe had a full blown AM case, vet recognised it and the pony survived but in the youngsters case it was very typically AM and downhill in no time (hours).

So I do wonder of older horses present differently with low grade AM? Just a thought, anyone got sycamore anywhere nearby and liver issues?
 
MiniMilton said:
My horse has elevated liver enzymes. Vet thinks it's due to ragworth but I disagree. Is it possible he has ulcers and that has caused liver enzymes to rise? He hasn't lost any weight but I've just realised he's been chewing wood. He's prone to laminitis so my obsession with keeping his weight down may have left him hungry on occasion.
I also see feeding straw is contraindicated for horses with ulcers and I feed him a good bit of oat straw during the summer months as he's such a good doer.
Just curious if there could be a link
Click to expand...

I am currently waiting for a biopsy on my pony who has raised liver enzymes as per this thread. https://forums-secure.horseandhound.co.uk/showthread.php?695489-Famous-vibes-needed-please


I see threads weekly on this happenings. My vet said another last week had biopsy and it was bacterial infection so it might be this on yours as there is a lot of this around if you follow this forum, there are threads after threads on this
 
MiniMilton said:
I'm not too up to date with all the terminology but I rooted out the piece of paper from my last conversation with the vet. His GGT (GTT?) was 137 on first test then 2 months later was 172. (Does that sound right? It was just a scrawl on a piece of paper) his ACT decreased from his first test I don't know the levels though and he stopped work after his first test (hind suspensary injury)
I'm now overdue another test. (4 months on)
He has been on legaphyton since the first test

I'm on my phone now so struggling to quote etc but it's a strange coincidence to read about the other hind end injury. The only reason why my horse was tested at all is he was not working to full capacity and I suspected a reoccurrence of old SI injury. Turns out it was a new hind suspensary injury he did while on holidays in the field.

I just felt my usually very willing horse had lost his spark and seemed a bit pissed off and working with lack of impulsion. In hindsight his coat started looking crap 6 months earlier and he was itchy.

Ragworth grows in the field due to neighbours not caring, but I pull every single one obsessively. The hay I have bought the last couple of years has been grown locally. I know the field it was cut in and absolutely no evidence of ragwort. I haven't noticed a burnt thingy on grass or residue on legs however our well water does leave a reddish residue in buckets. However the horses usually live out so they mostly drink the stream water.

What else have I forgotten?
Anyway he still looks pissed off. Just bringing him back into work now and he has a belly but had obviously been chewing wood over the last few months and he has man been stabled only 2-3hrs per day.

What are normal GGT levels and what is fatal range? No idea how bad he actually is

Edited due to stupid autocorrect
Click to expand...
Normal range for GGT is up to 50. Ours have ranged up to 900 with no real symptoms (never would have blood tested if we hadn't list 1 to acute liver failure, her only obvious symptom looking back was itching, she must have been photosensitive).

A reddish tinge in buckets may mean high iron (I am no expert) but I know too much iron is bad for the liver, the body can't excrete it. I cringe when I see people feeding iron supplements to lethargic horses without blood testing first as lethargy can be a symptom of liver disease and high iron can push it over the edge. I've just ordered a heavy metal test kit for my water for £10.

We have high enzymes in 5 horses (or did, I'm the only one still testing) and not a single sycamore for miles so in my case it would any that, but maybe for some?
 
Ours has just had two biopsies and has been diagnosed with a mycotoxin infection and displayed in his blood levels as close to ragwort poisoning.. had to change his entire diet to try and eliminate what has caused it.. could be feed, water, pasture, hay/hhaylage.. hes on steroids and continuing a low protein/oil diet xx
 
Just got my latest blood results through if anyone can interpret??

31/10/14
ldh 1215
Potassium 2.5
Alp 208
Ast 406
Ggt 100
Bile acids 8
Ck 419

26/03/15
Ldh 1542
Alp 318
Ast 642
Gldh 94
Ggt 494
Bile acids 14
Ck 427
 
We have been monitoring liver enzymes since April 2013 following raised GGT levels but normal liver function tests. We have changed hay and pasture. Changing hay had no effect, changing pasture, 40 miles away, did. We do have signs of crown rust, however when it is dry their GGT levels start to come down. With these two things we believe that we may have a mycotoxin issue, worse in the wet and when grazing short grass from what I've read (interestingly our fatty, always on restricted turnout has always had the highest GGT levels). All of them have been having Mycosorb since January and as of last week their levels have fallen dramatically, one just above normal, 60, and the others in the 100-200 range having been in the 800-900 range at their highest. None of the horses have had any obvious symptoms, the original bloods were taken as part of our routine annual health check. I understand that there is now a better test, better than two years ago, for identifying the presence of mycotoxins in pasture, although we haven't had ours tested. Most of what I've read about mycotoxins is from New Zealand where they seem to be very aware of this. Keeping fingers crossed that the Mycosorb continues to bring the levels down. Not sure if this will be of any help but good luck finding an answer for yours.
 
Grey Haven said:
Just got my latest blood results through if anyone can interpret??

31/10/14
ldh 1215
Potassium 2.5
Alp 208
Ast 406
Ggt 100
Bile acids 8
Ck 419

26/03/15
Ldh 1542
Alp 318
Ast 642
Gldh 94
Ggt 494
Bile acids 14
Ck 427
Click to expand...

I'm sorry I can't interpret for you but whatever is going on with your horse, it appears to be getting a lot worse?

http://liphookequinehospital.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Lab-Book-Liver-Disease.pdf

I can't find my horses old LFT results but there was significantly raised enzymes after an acute lami attack and he had EMS. He was quite ill. His stifles were swollen, his legs filled.

If it helps anyone, I decided to stop everything I was feeding at the time. He was on a typical lami diet plus loads of extra vits n mins that were "supposed" to help. I ordered a very specific detox additive and gave him that soaked into beet pulp with grated carrot just to mask the taste. Soaked hay. He was much better a week later and was paddock sound in just a coupl of weeks.

We figured that the liver was overloaded with an excess of vitamins and minerals that his system could not flush away. He had huge amounts of energy that year... I do the same with my filly now. She gets nothing but grass. I do believe we overdo it with our horses and its easy to as these tubs and bags are mis-sold to us as "lami support" or " hoof kind" when they should not be especially as an EMS horse has already reduced ability to regulate his or her nutrition uptake. I'm very careful now and will only feed extra vits n mins if I think they truly need it.
 
Thanks Tallyho - it's odd that his enzymes went up at the start of last winter, then came down over the summer and have now gone up again apparently this winter.

Have like you take him off everything he was having, now just chaff, hay (which he presently isn't eating) and mycosorb. I'm having my hay analysed for nutritional and mineral properties and he's on antibiotics and steroids.

Next port of call will be looking at his gut health - could be hind gut ulcers or leaky gut syndrome....who knows? I just want him better!
 
Grey Haven said:
Thanks Tallyho - it's odd that his enzymes went up at the start of last winter, then came down over the summer and have now gone up again apparently this winter.

Have like you take him off everything he was having, now just chaff, hay (which he presently isn't eating) and mycosorb. I'm having my hay analysed for nutritional and mineral properties and he's on antibiotics and steroids.

Next port of call will be looking at his gut health - could be hind gut ulcers or leaky gut syndrome....who knows? I just want him better!
Click to expand...

Bless him. Hope he improves soon. I think you're doing the right thing with giving a simple diet for now.

Speak to roger Hatch at trinity consultants. Very knowledgable man.
 
Mine has been on a diet for years and grazing short grass.
I had him on a barefoot diet prior to his enzymes increasing and I do worry that my obsession to get his feet right might have put his liver under additional stress.
I was feeding micronized linseed, unmolassed beet pulp, minerals for his hooves and some unmolassed straw/alfalfa chaff. I was also mixing straw through his hay.
It's around the same time that I noticed the itching starting because I remember thinking is my horse the only one who's coat got WORSE with micronized linseed.

So now I do wonder it if was the additional fat/minerals overloading the liver. Or something in the straw.
Anyway for the past few months I haven't fed the straw, minerals or linseed and I will be retesting him this week. Hooves crossed he will have improved.
 
Keep up posted Minimilton!

I'm away are the moment, but my friend now reports he's eating his day - I'm so relieved!!

Sorry we've hi-jacked this thread a bit!!! However in response to the original question about liver enzymes and ulcers I'm convinced there is a link!
 
Not at all Grey Haven hijack away. Keep me posted on your boy I'm very curious. Although just on the feeding him chaff, I had heard that chaff is full of mould inhibitors and other additives. Maybe cut that out too? Doesn't leave much for us to feed though.

I had looked into feeding activated carbon/charcoal for the suspected ulcer and then I saw it was used to flush toxins out of the body, and it was at that point that I thought there might be a link between ulcers and a compromised liver
 
I feed him Thunderbrooks chaff so there is nothing in there - it's organic, no fillers. It's one of the first things I changed when his liver was upset 18 months ago.

It's a mine field!!!!
 
Fwiw... Instead of chaff try dried pure grass and soaked grass nuts.

If you're just feeding for comfort then the amount of grass in a handful of chopped dry grass and grass nuts is very minimal.
 
He's on this at the moment

A very palatable late cut meadow grass, dried and chopped, with added herbs and a light coating of quality linseed oil. Naturally high fibre and low sugar, yet still smells and tastes great!

Crude Protein 13%
Oil 2.5%
Crude Fibre 30%
Ash 10%

The analysis will vary from cut to cut, and from field to field. Sugar has ranged from 4% - 8%, but tends to average at just under 7%. Starch ranges from 0.5% - 5% , but is normally about 4%. Any natural grown grass product will vary, even the headlands ( around the edges) will vary from the centre of the field. If concerned about sugar and starch levels, always remember to work out the average for the whole diet in a 24 hr period (percentage multiplied by weight fed, not just the percentage!).

He gets a round stubbs scoop - split between two feeds per day
 
Grey Haven said:
He's on this at the moment

A very palatable late cut meadow grass, dried and chopped, with added herbs and a light coating of quality linseed oil. Naturally high fibre and low sugar, yet still smells and tastes great!

Crude Protein 13%
Oil 2.5%
Crude Fibre 30%
Ash 10%

The analysis will vary from cut to cut, and from field to field. Sugar has ranged from 4% - 8%, but tends to average at just under 7%. Starch ranges from 0.5% - 5% , but is normally about 4%. Any natural grown grass product will vary, even the headlands ( around the edges) will vary from the centre of the field. If concerned about sugar and starch levels, always remember to work out the average for the whole diet in a 24 hr period (percentage multiplied by weight fed, not just the percentage!).

He gets a round stubbs scoop - split between two feeds per day
Click to expand...

Graze on is one and we use something else... Forgot the name... sounds good to me. I add a handful of 'graze on' to some soaked grass pellets as she's out 24/7 anyway.

I suppose there's not even any need to feed my filly a bucket.. but it is a comfort thing for me :D
 
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