Liver thread

ILuvCowparsely

ILuvCowparsely

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I wish Box-of-Frogs was still posting as I really miss her and her input with liver issues.

My mare had liver disease due to the lami I think she stood by the wall by her hay rack - she had oedemas on and off and a tinge of jaundice. She was on legaphyton 10 small meals per day and milk thistle and dried nettles with dandelion root. Never took a biopsy ( vet did not suggest it ).2012



zoom forward.......................

My mares son went into the new field on New Years day and coliked for the first time - bloods showed raise subtle liver enzymes - two weeks later on milk thistle they returned to normal.
case closed



zoom forward to my pony...............

She started to go more lethargic and vet called ... raised liver enzymes, higher than the boy's. I had started her on milk thistle as the boy was on it anyway. Second bloods some factors higher some lower don't know which, still on milk thistle and Legaphyton along with 7 licorice twists at lunch time.


D&H recommended recently handful of stay power nuts and 1/2 fibergy. Her milk thistle and legaphyton and ultimate balancer.

She is a lot brighter and energetic despite raised liver enzymes.

No Jaundice at the moment - no head banging- cloud fog- etc to look at her you would think nothing wrong.

Biopsy taken Friday told results Tues no call Wednesday no call. Just phoned - still not in. I am pulling my hair out so worried for my little pony. Please share your experiences with this as it would be nice to read other success stories

:)
 
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Hope you get to the bottom of it , am in the same boat with my mare raised liver enzymes and vet suggesting a biopsy, just had the blood test results emailed to me and Liphook commented ' concerning results' like you I am very worried and dont know why its happening .
 
flaxen tail said:
Hope you get to the bottom of it , am in the same boat with my mare raised liver enzymes and vet suggesting a biopsy, just had the blood test results emailed to me and Liphook commented ' concerning results' like you I am very worried and dont know why its happening .
Click to expand...

Tim Brazil did my ponies Biopsy
 
you should have biopsy and find out the cause - i hate the waiting for them but otherwise we don't know what we are dealing with.
 
A biopsy won't necessarily tell you the cause, it will tell you if that particular piece of liver sampled shows signs of disease but that won't always a) be representative of the entire liver or b) give a cause for it. My friends horse had a biopsy that said there was no sign of ragwort damage and nothing that indicated why enzymes were so high.

As I commented on the other thread, I have blood tested my pony every couple of months for the last few years because of raised enzymes (I want to say they were massively high but it's all relative!). I didn't give him any treatment as the bile indicated liver function was okay and that it was an unknown assault on the liver, so saw no point in throwing antibiotics at him or doing biopsy (not saying this was the right choice but vets were happy to go with me on it). I rested him initially but he looked so well and was bouncing out of his skin so I decided to put him back in work but always listen to him. If he had a quiet day I'd get off and turn him back out, if he was super keen (which he usually was!) we would crack on and work harder.

6/7 weeks ago the vets decided to investigate further as part of a lameness work up as his AST and CK enzymes were so high. He was diagnosed with a muscle disease called EPSM where his muscles store too much glycogen. The damaged cells leak AST and ck into the blood.

So I put him on an amino acid called acetyl-l-carnitine in the hope it would help him to metabolise the sugars properly.

4/5 weeks after being on this suppliment not only have his muscle enzymes dropped down to the normal range but so has his liver GGT. A massive drop in 4 weeks. I wonder if all the crap in his blood from the muscle disease was stressing the liver (not saying it caused the problem but perhaps limited its ability to recover). The amino acid I've added (or the L-carnitine form) is synthesised by the liver and I've read studies about its use in humans and eats for liver conditions. There must be a link there somewhere for me to have got such incredible results so fast. It seems like too much of a coincidence for it just to have come down automatically given they've been high for so long.

I don't want to advise other people to use it (although it is used by people for weight loss with few side effects and my vets view was that it wasn't their recommendation but it wouldn't hurt). But it's a story of hope and something to perhaps speak to your vet about? even if every horse is different. I know another poster on here has an EPSM and liver issues horse who's levels went up despite the ALCAR so who knows.

Try not to worry too much, although I know it's hard.
 
KatPT said:
A biopsy won't necessarily tell you the cause, it will tell you if that particular piece of liver sampled shows signs of disease but that won't always a) be representative of the entire liver or b) give a cause for it. My friends horse had a biopsy that said there was no sign of ragwort damage and nothing that indicated why enzymes were so high.

As I commented on the other thread, I have blood tested my pony every couple of months for the last few years because of raised enzymes (I want to say they were massively high but it's all relative!). I didn't give him any treatment as the bile indicated liver function was okay and that it was an unknown assault on the liver, so saw no point in throwing antibiotics at him or doing biopsy (not saying this was the right choice but vets were happy to go with me on it). I rested him initially but he looked so well and was bouncing out of his skin so I decided to put him back in work but always listen to him. If he had a quiet day I'd get off and turn him back out, if he was super keen (which he usually was!) we would crack on and work harder.

6/7 weeks ago the vets decided to investigate further as part of a lameness work up as his AST and CK enzymes were so high. He was diagnosed with a muscle disease called EPSM where his muscles store too much glycogen. The damaged cells leak AST and ck into the blood.

So I put him on an amino acid called acetyl-l-carnitine in the hope it would help him to metabolise the sugars properly.

4/5 weeks after being on this suppliment not only have his muscle enzymes dropped down to the normal range but so has his liver GGT. A massive drop in 4 weeks. I wonder if all the crap in his blood from the muscle disease was stressing the liver (not saying it caused the problem but perhaps limited its ability to recover). The amino acid I've added (or the L-carnitine form) is synthesised by the liver and I've read studies about its use in humans and eats for liver conditions. There must be a link there somewhere for me to have got such incredible results so fast. It seems like too much of a coincidence for it just to have come down automatically given they've been high for so long.

I don't want to advise other people to use it (although it is used by people for weight loss with few side effects and my vets view was that it wasn't their recommendation but it wouldn't hurt). But it's a story of hope and something to perhaps speak to your vet about? even if every horse is different. I know another poster on here has an EPSM and liver issues horse who's levels went up despite the ALCAR so who knows.

Try not to worry too much, although I know it's hard.
Click to expand...


I wonder if that is was my mare of a lifetime had?? I gave her lots of protein food including red cell then propell, she started bucking in walk then trot then canter. Vet came out did bloods and said she had Myopathy, where her muscles leak cretinaze and seize up. Not like azutoria it is a lesser form but in the 90's my vet called it Myopathy so that is the name I know. She never got it again because I refused to give her any mixes or any propel again, just kept her on a bland diet and always made sure she never had two days off in a row
 
That's exactly it. Diet for horses with equine polysaccharide storage myopathy is low protein, low sugar and high oil/fat, plus daily exercise and turnout. Obviously I couldn't feed high oil due to his liver condition (liver needs low fat, high carbohydrate so the opposite) so I decided to go against vet advice a little and added the amino acid and a little micronised linseed to his balancer. Thank goodness it's working as that plus his sacroiliac injury seemed a lot to cope with in one go!
 
Well nearly two weeks and still not got results - though vet did call me on the way to RVC with a livery that the fibrosis is about scale 2 out of 14
 
Got my results today - all have lowered which is great - GGT has nearly halved to 271 still high, but going the right way! Very happy!

Also had my forage analysis reports back - can anyone read them>?
 
Grey Haven thats great and encouraging news about your GGT,S coming down, do you think it was the mycosorb, Ive just ordered some and have also got sea buckthorn, sometimes I guess we throw so much into the mix its hard to say what has worked we only know something has ! ive had forage analysis before from Dodson and Horrell but I was mainly interested in the sugar content .maybe you were looking for something specific as well.
 
Fantastic news grey haven! I haven't started on my mycosorb yet as I've had good results without it, but it's on standby.
 
Well I got my liver biopsy yesterday

looks like she will have this for life as she is grade 2 on the damage scale . She has to stay on Legaphyton and milk thistle and have more bloods in 12 weeks and 3 months and 6 months and another biopsy next year.
 
He's refusing to eat the mycosorb at the moment so I cut it out while he was on the meds. I've started him on Coligone - I'm sure he has gut discomfort.

Flaxen Tail - you're in South Gloucestershire - I'm in Bristol.
 
oh so maybe not the mycosorb then, yes cant be far away im bristol ,s glos too. HGA 12 not sure what grade 2 is but sounds like it needs monitoring . I thought the liver could regenerate so maybe it will improve in time. I still havnt got a response from vet as to how much a biopsy is or a response from the horse transport people to say if they can take her and how much. She loves the seabuckthorn juice Ive tasted it its sharp and fruity good for liver and ulcers.
 
flaxen tail said:
oh so maybe not the mycosorb then, yes cant be far away im bristol ,s glos too. HGA 12 not sure what grade 2 is but sounds like it needs monitoring . I thought the liver could regenerate so maybe it will improve in time. I still havnt got a response from vet as to how much a biopsy is or a response from the horse transport people to say if they can take her and how much. She loves the seabuckthorn juice Ive tasted it its sharp and fruity good for liver and ulcers.
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mine was £ 300 and something including the local etc - not as much as I thought
 
thanks I have been trying to weigh it all up ,Ive got to find out when Tim Brazil is available and try and tie it in with transport there and back. £300 not as bad as I thought ,I was thinking it would be nearer a thousand pounds.just need to decide wether to do another blood test or go straight for the biopsy.
 
flaxen tail said:
thanks I have been trying to weigh it all up ,Ive got to find out when Tim Brazil is available and try and tie it in with transport there and back. £300 not as bad as I thought ,I was thinking it would be nearer a thousand pounds.just need to decide wether to do another blood test or go straight for the biopsy.
Click to expand...

He may travel to your local vets as he did with mine.
 
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