Liveries!! Tell me if i'm wrong. Rather long sorry!

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Dressagebabe

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I own a small private livery yard with 9 horses in fairly luxury conditions and the liveries I have carefully selected are superb and so are their well behaved horses. However, I have this one livery that has been with me for 3yrs and had a previous horse that was a little sweetie to do etc but she was on loan and the owner took her back so my livery's Mother decided to take the plunge and by her daughter a horse of her own.

The daughter is a very sweet teenager whom can only be described as a nervous, novice. I suggested she take someone with her when buying to make sure it was as suitable as possible anyway, she travelled 100miles to see a horse (just her & her Mother whom too is nervous novice) and phoned me on the way back to say the horse was lovely and was going to put an offer in on him, when she arrived back at the yard I questioned with interest about the horse and found out that it had unseated her twice over jumps, dragged its toes constantly on a hack, spun around at a tractor and also tried to bite her a few times! I talked her out of it and so off she went again to view another horse, not so far away this time. Again she went on her own with Mum not asking for any help and then came back to say she had bought this horse that was advertised for £7,500 and they had got him for £6,500 with all his tack and rugs. He was supposed to be of top breeding and stunning according to her Mother!

He arrived by the owners whom I can only describe as Pikey's the horse dragged the owner off the trailer and around to the yard (I spotted the Be Nice Headcollar!!!) they stood in the stable giving my livery a lecture about how fantastic he was and what he will be worth when schooled better etc he is a 6yr old 16.1 with the most horrendous conformation, U necked due to conformation, huge ugly roman nose & ears (sorry guys if you love Roman Noses!), his breeding was certainly not of top blood with lots of different x breeds in the main line. Before leaving they got my livery to sign a letter saying she is a confident, competent rider that can handle and bring him on! and with that they left with the final words of ' Dont let him bully you as he will get one over on you if he can'.

4 months on he cant be left on his own in the yard as he has trashed my stable so I have to leave one of my horses in as she doesn't get out of bed til 9am, he trashes the fields galloping around all day, he's evil to the other horses in her field and you cant lead him from the field as he doesn't want to come in so rears several times to break away and tries to double barrel you at the same time! She has made this worse by being frightened of him so every time he even sneezed she threw the lead rope at him and let him go, now he knows he can get away from her. I bring him in on the lunge line and no matter what he does I hang on to him so that he doesn't win.

I got him in last week but he tried to get away and pinned me against the gate crushing my arm (now cant ride for a while as I have torn my bicep) for this reason I have told her I am not prepared to bring him in anymore as its not worth it for £2.00! she then asked me what I thought she should do and I advised her to move him on to a man as he is so bolshy for a nervous novice to cope with and he was always ridden by a man in his last home as the lady who owned him apparently didn't ride anymore! she then asked me about his value, I explained in a nice way that he didn't have a great deal going for him as he wasn't put together well enough to show him, paces are awful and he paddles and straddles over jumps so prob only worth around £2k - £2.5k (the sort you see going through the local horse sales) she has gone home and told her Mother and now her Mother has decided to come up and help her (open & close gate behind her in field) but is totally refusing to speak or even acknowledge me even when she comes face to face with me. I am furious that she as a woman in her late 50's is sulking to the extent of rudeness when all I have done is bent over backwards to help her daughter since she came to my yard, she borrows anything she wants from my tack room including my saddles in the past, I give her free riding lessons on my Advanced dressage horse to help with her position, I have taken her to clinics to watch, lent her my horse trailer and lots of other things along with the fact that she never pays her rent on time usually 7 days later.

The thing is, I am starting to want to tell her that due to her Mother's behavour I don't want her Mum to come on the yard anymore as I feel she is being disrespectful to me but do you all think I am being childish!! Sorry this is soooooo long but felt you needed the full picture to give me true advice.
 
Errr...paragraphs?!
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Sorry, didn't mean to be flippant, will read at lunch time!
 
Give them notice- they sound like more trouble than theyre worth.

It's a shame for all involved but they dont sound safe and if an accident happens on your property things could get complicated
 
I'm afraid I would be giving her notice to take her horse elsewhere!! I wouldnt have my fields trashed or anyone put in danger with a horse that was just too much for them to handle.

It sounds like you have been more than fair, and tried to help,, but some people wont be told......
 
You do run a business and not a charity. I have to say if he was in the field with my gelding and was constantly being nasty (rather than normal horsey bickering) I'd be voicing my opinions!
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If he really is that dangerous I think I'd be asking them to move on if it was my yard.

The phrase 'cheers you mug' applies to this purchase.
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In my eyes you have 2 options

1. Accept the situation as it is but just start to re-establish a few groundlines regarding rules. Be polite and helpful to a certain extent, always say hello/good morning but distance yourself from offering advice unless directly asked. Stop helping in terms of lessons / transport / lending tack until you see a marked improvement in their attitude towards you. I would personally let them know that having to leave one of your in to keep theirs company is becoming an inconvenience and discuss possible solutions.

2. Ask them to leave
 
i would be giving them notice im afraid....

if your yard is as nice as you say you can fill their space - with a polite horse whos owner pays on time - tomorrow!

not worth the hassle and getting injured by someone else horse.
 
Oo, what a horrible situation. You, as the YO, will always be in the wrong, no matter how much you try to help or give advice, it will always be seen in the wrong light.

Mother and daughter are probably too embarrased to admit they made a mistake with the horse.

I feel really sorry for you, and no I don't think you are wrong at all. I would feel the same as you.
 
Sound horrible situation.............. BUT you are YO and tis living.....

I think you may have to put this down to experience and speak to mother and try and give them guidance/useful advice (what about getting horse sent away to be sorted) and if get stupid or horrible reaction i personnel would give them notice..........

As your living, your yard, your stables plus what about other liveries horses etc....
 
I really think unless they are going to get a more suitable horse, which is easy for them to handle and easy for you to bring in and turn out, then i really tell them to go elsewhere.
 
DressageBabe - I think you have been an exemplary YO and have bent over backwards to help this family. It's such a shame that well meaning novices get ripped off like this by unscrupulous dealers/sellers but that's a different issue. I expect the mum is feeling out of control, hit hard in the pocket, taken for a mug and a thousand other things that, put all together, turn people into something they normally aren't. In other words, she doesn't know how to deal with this situation and probably has no-one to turn to for advice. I guess the simplest solution is to give them notice as others have suggested (it doesn't sound as if you'd have much trouble getting another livery). But I guess too that the horse could face a very uncertain future, through no fault of his own. Maybe if you try to sit them both down and talk through the reality of the situation with a caution that the horse cannot stay at your yard long term as he is a danger to others (including mum and daughter). I'm not joking but could you suggest they sign onto this forum and post their problem and ask for CONSTRUCTIVE advice? That might help them see that you are being helpful, not negative.
 
Ben_and_Jerrys, Thanks this is good advice and to an extent sort of what I have been doing for the last few days. She has been trying to get all the other liveries to ride him for free, I have offered to school him at £10 per session but she wont pay. I have said I am not allowing the other girls to go up to the field and bring him in to ride him for her so she now feels I am being awkward. I have explained she has to sort her own problem without putting someone else in danger because she is too scared.
 
I would have to ask them to go. I have a yard and all my liveries are great - but you as a yard owner cannot risk your income by having to handle a horse like that - also your other liveries are potentially at risk and that then puts you in a difficult situation re your insurance.

I had one livery that was like this - I was supposed to turn it out every day - but the owner was increasing it's feed daily and it was going out of it's mind on the feed. Eventually I told the owner I wanted it off all the feed and turned out 24/7 to try and sort its mind out as it was extremely dangerous. I also asked for it to be exercised every day - and volunteered to lunge it three times a week to help her out. She didn't bother. Just kept feeding and not exercising. So I asked her to either handle the horse herself which meant she had to be up at the yard every day at 8am to turn out or he would need to go somewhere else. She took him, and I was glad to see the horse leave. It was a real shame as the horse was a sweetie when out 24/7 just couldn't handle all the feed being pushed in to it.
 
I think you should ask them to leave
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Its a shame for the daughter really but you dont need the hassle.

Good luck and hope your arm mends quickly.
 
Box_of_Frogs, thanks for your kind words, she has had 3 of her friends come to ride him and advise her one of them whom is a good little rider has also told her they paid far too much and that he needs firm handling but she thinks she can give him sweeties and everything will be ok. Its very sad because she is a sweet kid but it occupies my mind all the time now and she's only here on DIY and I do have a waiting list so I know I can fill her stable I just don't like the thought of casting her out when she really needs help but she shouldn't really be around horses as she treats them like you would a pet rabbit and thats when people get hurt. They are big animals that have to be taught respect in a kind but firm way. The word firm is something she is not allowed to show as her Mum tells her off if she even rides with a whip!
 
Oh dear.what a pain in the bum!!! and they are still coming to your premises?.like they haven't been kicked off already??.you have more tolerance than I do.....who do they think they are sulking and not speaking?.chances are they are already looking for somewhere else to go.

Its the height of summer.such as it is.this problem will only get worse as we go into winter.winters are hard enough without having to deal with people like this aswell..even if they got rid of this horse, sounds like they could be a pain with another one.
 
This is indeed a nightmare.

I agree with one of the other posters that the mother's emotions will be all over the place at present. She is probably feeling stupid, totally out of her depth and hopeless. (As well as other things!). This could well account for her recent behaviour, although it is not right for her to be taking this out on you.

Do you have any ideas of what else might help this horse??? Would it benefit from your regular schooling (as you have suggested), more regular exercise etc?? Or perhaps would be happier living out? I expect you have run through all the possibilities.

If this were my horse I would get a horse behaviouralist - one of Monty Robert's associates out. I have a horse that used to be very very difficult. I had one of these people out twice and they really helped my situation, mainly by gaining respect from my horse on the ground. I do have experience going back to my early years though and have always been confident with him, which makes a huge difference. My horse is settled and causes no issues these days. I would also consider trying to get a horseMAN out to help in the hope that this might respect a larger figure better.

I think the best way forward is to arrange some kind of informal meeting with them where you can express your real concerns and state that if they are not willing to get someone in to help and/or get this horse more schooling/work you are going to have to look at getting an alternative livery. I think it is worth having this discussion and seeing how it goes from there. Obviously, if the mother is uncommunicative it is time for game over.
 
I do feel very sorry for the girl and her mother - her dreams of horse ownership must be shattered.

You are a very kind YO and have offered her help but your safety is important. If you don't want to handle the horse then tell her and explain why.

Perhaps rather than throwing her off the yard immediately sit down for a chat with a cuppa and perhaps say she can stay on the condition that she turn her horse earlier and that she gets professional help to improve her horses behaviour - perhaps a calmer might work?
 
Hi Micky, I have offered to school him but the daughter lives on a shoestring and so cant afford to pay someone. I suspect if she increased his workload he would be less of an Ar*se in the field. I gave her a lesson on him and she couldn't believe what I put her through - both horse and rider came out looking like they had been to the gym. I explained to her that my lesson was what most of my girls I teach do for an hour (she only had 30 mins). She came out feeling really good about herself but the next day her usual 10 mins in walk and 2 mins in trot then its all over was reiterated.
 
Sounds like a very unfortunate situation for all concerned...including the horse.

You seem by the sounds of it a pretty decent person, I would have one last go at sorting the situation out in an adult way (not meaning you...but the mother) I'd invite them round over a coffee and explain all your concerns, surely if her mother had a shred of decency she would appreciate that you would like to sort the problem out for her own daughters, yours and over liveries safety and the horses future etc

Perhaps suggest that unless the horse is sent away for a few months to for some corrective training/schooling by a professional then they would have to leave your yard, this way they have choice, you get a break from all the hassle and daughter/mother get the opportunity to try and turn this horse around for the better while her daughter builds up her confidence issues.

Sounds like the only person that came out of all this rubbing their hands where the dealers, totally irresponsible and not even worthy of being called a dealer! seem it happen to so many people, have the cash, but no idea (not that that there fault) but some dealers just see them coming and take advantage, families get ripped off, horses turn from bad to worse and get passed about, peoples lives are put at risk and they end up totally loosing there confidence...terrible!
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If this was my yard I wouldn't want the hassle to be honest. You have already been injured and things could get very tricky if the horse injures another of your liveries or any of your staff (if you have staff). Sounds as though you have done so much already to help them and things are not improving.....
 
My horse was 4 when I got him. He was very sweet when I viewed him on 3 seperate occasions. (Not a single tooth showing). Well, he arrived at my chosen livery yard and within 24hr I was getting phone calls saying he had tried to bite the grooms. Things went from bad to worse when he jumped out of every single field he was put it. I had to move yards after 2 weeks to get somewhere with higher P&R fencing and electric. He still had a tendency to relocate on occasions. He was a strong character on the ground, moody and disrespectful. To ride he was great.
I sat down and tried to work out all the things that might help (it's often not just 1 thing is it?). He went on calmers, hard feed minimal, turned out on his own (as he would terrorise others), exercised every day, help from NH people just twice, etc, etc. The thing is I wanted so mush to do everything I could. I had the money, resourcefulness, experience and commitment to try to do this.
I have reaped the rewards as I have a lovely horse now although he is still moody in the stable.
These people don't have the experience, it sounds like they don't have the funds or the resourcefulness. Whether they have the commitment who knows?
I think you have hit the nail on the head WRT exercise - It needs a lot more. I would be asking them to exercise it at least 5 times a week properly. Tell them that they could try it for 2 weeks and see what happens (in an attempt to motivate them). I'd be speaking to the mother and saying please can you try to pay for 2 lessons twice a week (for the 2 weeks) as a further attempt to see what happens over those 2 weeks. If after 2 weeks the horse has changed they will see it with their own eyes, and hope above hope they will decide to keep this up. If they are not commited enough then they will fail. (PS I do understand how funding CAN be an issue).
 
i don't honestly think this is one which you are going to ever get a satisfactory outcome from. If you try to help you are putting yourself out and in line for more injury,plus the horse will still walk all over her because it knows it can so unless she is prepared to put in the work nothing will change.
I would ask them to come and have a chat with you about it and explain nicely that the horse really isn't suitable, it's becoming unsafe to have it on the yard and you're not happy to let the situation continue for much longer. if they have half a brain between them they will ask what you suggest they do
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thats when you can very sweetly tell them to sling their hook or pay a professional to sort the horse and her handling of him. Hopefully they'll choose 1st easy option
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I think you have been very patient and kind trying to help them but these people have made a horrible, costly and scary mistake and they are unlikely to listen to reason. I would bet anything they will turn around at some point and try to find fault with you/your yard for the horse's behaviour. I would ask them to leave asap, it can only get worse.
 
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