Liveries who can't pay during virus.-

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samoyedman

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started this thread earlier today. Waiting for another account to be approved by admin with an appropriate user name ( Picked from frustration but agree not very P.C!). LOL

So basically looking to get a bit of feedback. Some liveries having financial problems and can't pay livery costs (DIY) or Forage bills. Just wonder if people are allowing a credit account - paid at some point? allowing people to pay 80% (assuming they have been furloughed) or some other arrangement?

We really want to support our liveries but we also have bills to pay, fields/muckheap to be managed etc. Also even those who have a History! present a problem as no one can move on due to the virus lockdown.
 
I wondered where this thread had gone, was sure I replied :) Not sure if this helps but I work for a lettings agency. We have been advised that we should allow tenants to defer or reduce their rent payments in the short term but they must offer a reasonable repayment plan over the next 6 months to catch up to avoid eviction. Most who have been affected will be entitled to help and those who have been furloughed will have less outgoings atm, less travel etc, so should be able to pay something. Would a similar idea work for you?
 
What a situation to be in. An awful lot will be dependant on what type of livery you have DIY or full livery.
Can folk drop down a livery grade ?
Do you have a select number of good liveries whom always pay on time - normally ?
Do you have a couple that always struggle to pay their bills?
What can you afford to change i.e. can you furlough your staff ?
 
It is not easy as some will be in a very difficult situation, others may be on the same income as normal so should not have any problems paying but unless you know them all well enough to be aware of each situation it will be hard to sort out without possibly upsetting a few.

I would be inclined to send out a message to every livery asking them to come to you privately if they are going to struggle and work out something between you asking for it to be kept confidential, if they have no changes to income you would hope they are honest enough to pay the normal rate, any who are in real trouble but have generally been good payers can have leeway, workout something between you, the bad payers, if they are genuinely struggling, can have leeway but I would be inclined to give notice, if they are not too far behind, and take a bit of a loss to get rid of the bad apples, having a few less may impact your income but should be worthwhile as the ones left will appreciate you and will try to catch up, the bad ones will probably take advantage and leave at some point having never caught up.
 
be positive said:
It is not easy as some will be in a very difficult situation, others may be on the same income as normal so should not have any problems paying but unless you know them all well enough to be aware of each situation it will be hard to sort out without possibly upsetting a few.

I would be inclined to send out a message to every livery asking them to come to you privately if they are going to struggle and work out something between you asking for it to be kept confidential, if they have no changes to income you would hope they are honest enough to pay the normal rate, any who are in real trouble but have generally been good payers can have leeway, workout something between you, the bad payers, if they are genuinely struggling, can have leeway but I would be inclined to give notice, if they are not too far behind, and take a bit of a loss to get rid of the bad apples, having a few less may impact your income but should be worthwhile as the ones left will appreciate you and will try to catch up, the bad ones will probably take advantage and leave at some point having never caught up.
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I would never think that someone would not pay on time and in full if they had not been affected by furlough, that has sort of shocked me.
 
Gingerwitch said:
I would never think that someone would not pay on time and in full if they had not been affected by furlough, that has sort of shocked me.
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From reading threads on here I just thought that if it was a DIY yard and some were having help the others may want to join in, the good payers wouldn't but as the OP mentioned ones with 'history' I thought they could take advantage if the YO didn't know their personal circumstances, the OP seems like a very reasonable YO but some have taken advantage of their liveries so it can work both ways, I think it totally unfair to put liveries onto full livery and expect the owners to put up with it and pay, which is what some seem to have done, I would go the opposite way and turn out to reduce the costs but I do not have staff to consider.
 
Gingerwitch said:
I would never think that someone would not pay on time and in full if they had not been affected by furlough, that has sort of shocked me.
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Hi Gingerwitch.
Thanks for the thoughts and the fact you have been shocked by what goes on!
I've had liveries telling me they are absolutely skint and can't afford to pay their bills as they have just bought a new car!
Welcome to my world!
 
I think it needs to be case by case, and we do have to try and help each other where we can. BUT, If someone has a history of not paying or being a late payer, I would maybe offer reduced livery, and then a repayment plan agreed by everyone going forward over a set amount of time, and in writing. Similar to what someone above suggested from the lettings agency point of view. To me from a business perspective at least you would get some money in the event they don't stick to the agreement. Sounds harsh but we all gotta eat.

Good payers I would have no issue sitting down and working out circumstances to see what can be done. Even if it meant a payment break for 3 months repaid over 6 months higher livery payments, at least long term you know they will pay and hopefully repay the generosity by staying on your yard for a while!
 
Some people will be really struggling & if you can help by having by offering payment in instalments or a payment plan that is good thing to do as long as you don't get into financial hardship as result of this.

If you are worried about being taken advantage of maybe asking for proof of financial hardship so letter from employers confirming furloughing or termination of contract. Those who are self employed may have a cash flow problem waiting for their money from government to arrive. I would also get something signed by both yourself & the livery if you are putting in place a deferred payment schedule.

Liveries may be able to save money by removing shoes from horses if not riding, cutting back on hard feed if not riding. I think you need to see an effort from people to find ways of reducing expenditure if possible to at least try & pay you.
 
We have had a blanket reduction of 16% off the normal cost. This was unexpected and I feel, generous.

But you could also look at it as “I have helped you by doing this so don’t come to me expecting to not have to pay.”

Could be an option, everyone gets treated the same and you would hopefully get some people say thank you but they don’t need the reduction as I have as my pay has not changed.
 
I know that banks are offering payment holidays, but they are still adding interest on to the account, so in effect yes they look like they are being very supportive, but are still getting their pound of flesh.

I would really struggle to not pay what I owe, that is just how I am made up, I have always paid up front and in advance with every yard I have been at, some really appreciate it and others can start to take you for granted, but liveries are the same. The yard I have recently left has told me they cannot pay me back my deposit, they know they owe it and they have been paid a month in advance for full livery, including bedding and feed but due to the unfairness in the lock down on the yard i left. I am not bothered about the month in advance money as that was my decision to leave but to not be able to pay my deposit back, this is a month's livery per horse, is a bit of a mick take, especially as they are blaming the fact that many of the other liveries cannot afford to pay them currently.
 
Reri1826 said:
We have had a blanket reduction of 16% off the normal cost. This was unexpected and I feel, generous.

But you could also look at it as “I have helped you by doing this so don’t come to me expecting to not have to pay.”

Could be an option, everyone gets treated the same and you would hopefully get some people say thank you but they don’t need the reduction as I have as my pay has not changed.
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I hope that the liveries will be respectful of this amazing offer and not cause issues if and when the price goes back up again.
 
Gingerwitch said:
I hope that the liveries will be respectful of this amazing offer and not cause issues if and when the price goes back up again.
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I can’t see that anyone would cause issues, it’s not like a situation where the rent suddenly goes up a huge amount like some yards do. The general consensus seems to be that everyone is extremely grateful.
 
My livery includes hay, and goes down in summer when less hay is used. This good weather has meant that the horses are able to go onto the summer tariff early, which will hopefully help everyone. I know one of my liveries has been laid off and would consider delaying payments if he was struggling. They could drop down to grass livery if need be too.
 
This is a hugely difficult time for everyone and not every YO is going to be able to be generous as everyone has bills to pay at the end of the day; and any deficit in one area is gonna be reflected elsewhere.

I'm a small-time YO (only got the one DIY livery who works self-employed within the equine industry) and because she's such a smasher I've said she mustn't worry if she needs to be a bit flexible re. livery fee for a bit. But appreciate that on a bigger yard YO's might not be able to be as lenient.

The whole situation is a real bummer for everyone right now.
 
I’m very lucky with my livery yard as the owner is self employed so understands how difficult these times are for others in the same position. My partner is out of work and not entitled to any help other than universal credit which is absolute pittance in comparison to what we usually have coming in.

my YO has turned the horses out for summer a few weeks early - so 90% of the yard are on minimal payment as their horses are on full turnout. The ones who can’t live out are on half livery cost, she even does a morning or evening feed (depending on work shift patterns etc) to limit the amount of liveries there as there are around 10 altogether that can’t live out in the summer fields.

and then there’s me....paying full whack, horse can’t even come out of her stable and I have to visit 2/3 times a day. The joys! But in all honesty my YO is very understanding to those who are loyal and respectful liveries. I haven’t paid for a few weeks, we pay a week behind when YO generates bills, and she simply messaged me to ask if everything was okay as she noticed I haven’t paid for a few weeks. Granted I should have approached her and explained things are tight at the minute what with Covid-19 and the ridiculous amounts of vet bills I’m dealing with, but she fully understood and I ensured her I’ll catch up next week.

I think it’s all about communication and mutual respect. Most people are either being furloughed or receiving 80% of their wages at some point, so I don’t really feel there’s a need for liveries to not be able to pay, especially given that it’s summer now so the majority of horses should be out to grass anyway. However there is a minority that will struggle massively and I think as long as they are honest and upfront most YO will be understanding, we are all in the same boat at the moment and we all just need to be a little understanding and help one another.
 
samoyedman said:
Hi Gingerwitch.
Thanks for the thoughts and the fact you have been shocked by what goes on!
I've had liveries telling me they are absolutely skint and can't afford to pay their bills as they have just bought a new car!
Welcome to my world!
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Erm, for me they would sell the car to pay their bills or be given notice. Either that or come up with a workable plan, as long as they bought the car before we knew about all this. The workable plan could be, for instance, if they were waiting for the Govt. money for self employed.


SO1 said:
Liveries may be able to save money by removing shoes from horses if not riding, cutting back on hard feed if not riding. I think you need to see an effort from people to find ways of reducing expenditure if possible to at least try & pay you.
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I like this as it shows someone who is genuinely caught on the back foot and is trying to sort out ways of coping.

Reri1826 said:
We have had a blanket reduction of 16% off the normal cost. This was unexpected and I feel, generous.

But you could also look at it as “I have helped you by doing this so don’t come to me expecting to not have to pay.”

Could be an option, everyone gets treated the same and you would hopefully get some people say thank you but they don’t need the reduction as I have as my pay has not changed.
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I like this approach too.
 
I think if there is one thing that this d........d virus has highlighted is the precarious nature of some people's finances. Many, I know, are forced to live hand to mouth every month but there must be many others who could afford to salt away small amounts into a "subsistenance" fund that is never touched except in emergencies - such as this. I think I would want to feel that I had about 3 months full living expenses available to me should the need arise and if that meant not taking a couple of holidays or not replacing the car or not working on the house until that money was secured then so be it. For me it would be worth the peace of mind.
 
PictusSweetDreams said:
I’m very lucky with my livery yard as the owner is self employed so understands how difficult these times are for others in the same position. My partner is out of work and not entitled to any help other than universal credit which is absolute pittance in comparison to what we usually have coming in.

my YO has turned the horses out for summer a few weeks early - so 90% of the yard are on minimal payment as their horses are on full turnout. The ones who can’t live out are on half livery cost, she even does a morning or evening feed (depending on work shift patterns etc) to limit the amount of liveries there as there are around 10 altogether that can’t live out in the summer fields.

and then there’s me....paying full whack, horse can’t even come out of her stable and I have to visit 2/3 times a day. The joys! But in all honesty my YO is very understanding to those who are loyal and respectful liveries. I haven’t paid for a few weeks, we pay a week behind when YO generates bills, and she simply messaged me to ask if everything was okay as she noticed I haven’t paid for a few weeks. Granted I should have approached her and explained things are tight at the minute what with Covid-19 and the ridiculous amounts of vet bills I’m dealing with, but she fully understood and I ensured her I’ll catch up next week.

I think it’s all about communication and mutual respect. Most people are either being furloughed or receiving 80% of their wages at some point, so I don’t really feel there’s a need for liveries to not be able to pay, especially given that it’s summer now so the majority of horses should be out to grass anyway. However there is a minority that will struggle massively and I think as long as they are honest and upfront most YO will be understanding, we are all in the same boat at the moment and we all just need to be a little understanding and help one another.
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Not trying to be inflammatory but just curious. Do you not have access to funds on a credit card? If I didn’t have any savings (which I don’t) I’d certainly want to know I have a few k on a credit card to easily access. Most people are able to get some form of credit.

I wouldn’t be comfortable paying the YO late due to current circumstances, providing I could access the money even if that meant debt. Using the YO as credit is, IMO, not acceptable unless a last resort (which I do appreciate will be the case for many).
 
I was thinking perhaps it might be worth having a credit card method of payment for liveries. I only get my old age pension oh has his works pension and runs the household costs I take care of the animal costs but do have a credit card for emergency bills. I wouldnt like to use it to pay livery but would rather than allow the livery owner to go without money. I have always kept my animals well but on a shoestring. They eat better than me:D. However we had a £200 vets bill this month due to sand colic so that went on my credit card and will be paid off as soon as i get paid but I do not have savings. YO often have trouble with bad payers so perhaps being able to take credit card payments might help. As to the current situation perhaps an old fashioned rent book may help so you can be paid amounts at different times and catch up later at least you would have something.
 
Michen said:
But if the choice is between paying your livery or using a credit card, why should the yard owner essentially have to act as a credit card?
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This with bells on. I see my YO as a provider of services/landlord and if they are still providing and my animals are there I will pay them on time and not expect a discount. If that meant taking a credit card out in times of desperation I would.

That said my YO was very kind to me over the years... they dropped my full livery down when my horse was on box rest even though between ice boots and hand walking they were doing more with him but she felt sorry for my season being cut short and said technically I wasn’t using the walker/school/feed. They gave me a multi horse discount so I could afford a replacement before the horse on box rest was turned away. But these things just make me even more greatful and mean I would never ever not pay on time.

Just before lockdown I had one on full, one on sales, one on loan and one on grazing. I am self employed and realised if three were to come back on full livery I would not be able to afford it without a regular income. The one on sales luckily sold, the loan horse I also sold to their loaners (way underpriced but too a fantastic home) and before all that I took the shoes off my full livery and sent him to grazing. I felt this was good preparation and really if all had come back I would of turned them all away even if not ideal - one has an injury which means they should stay in regular work and the other very sharp when not in work.

I would never expect them all to come back on full and my YO just let me be late on payments. They are my horses, my responsibility, unless circumstances are extreme then I need to be able to have a back up plan should I not be in work for a few months.

PS: I never ever take things on finance or pay over monthly instalments as was brought up to save and buy in full, that’s when you can afford it. So a credit card goes against me but would be necessary if really stuck.
 
saddle over sofa said:
This with bells on. I see my YO as a provider of services/landlord and if they are still providing and my animals are there I will pay them on time and not expect a discount. If that meant taking a credit card out in times of desperation I would.

They are my horses, my responsibility, unless circumstances are extreme then I need to be able to have a back up plan should I not be in work for a few months.

PS: I never ever take things on finance or pay over monthly instalments as was brought up to save and buy in full, that’s when you can afford it. So a credit card goes against me but would be necessary if really stuck.
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I do know that circumstances in lives do change, I understand that for many people their animals are the main reason they get up and go to work and for a lot they are their moment of freedom, but we do not have a given right to have them.

I personally think that often the root cause to issues when keeping horses, is that people forget that Yard Owners are a business, they are not their to subsidise a hobby, and whilst some can become valued friends you have to respect and remember that they are their fundamentally a business not a crutch. I know their is still a minority of people that will manipulate those friendship to their own advantage but that is the nature unfortunately of some areas of society.

I like yards that are run as a business, if i have to pay £1 for a rug on and £1 for a rug off then so be it, if it costs £1 to put a feed in then so be it, this then allows me to be able to ask for what I need when i need it. I do not like favours. At work I cost every single item and quote accordingly to make a profit and to re invest into the company. If the client changes something, they get charged an uplift on the quoted price, sometimes the client will refuse to pay an uplift and sometimes you then either put up the price up overall or have to part company with that client.

Their is no point being a busy fool.
 
Michen said:
Not trying to be inflammatory but just curious. Do you not have access to funds on a credit card? If I didn’t have any savings (which I don’t) I’d certainly want to know I have a few k on a credit card to easily access. Most people are able to get some form of credit.

I wouldn’t be comfortable paying the YO late due to current circumstances, providing I could access the money even if that meant debt. Using the YO as credit is, IMO, not acceptable unless a last resort (which I do appreciate will be the case for many).
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luckily (in a sense) we have savings as we have bought a house recently to renovate and move into which we saved for a long time for. These savings will have to be used for living at the moment, it’s a necessity bills are paid and not a necessity the house is renovated. Luckily we have a mortgage holiday, credit card is maxed out due to the renovations but we are doing a balance transfer (not a clue what this is - OH deals with all that!) to pay it off so that’s one less debt that needs immediately dealing with.

I wouldn’t ever use my YO as “credit” it isn’t fair. I’d rather apply for payment holidays for credit cards, mortgages etc. But that’s just me, I appreciate not everyone has that option
 
It is difficult to know what you will do until you are faced with it. The big concern is that mortgage holidays and other such things will just result in you paying more in the long run. Difficult to go DIY if you are still working in some capacity and probable that if you are on part or full livery that your yard won’t have that option. Horses are expensive to keep and quite a few owners stretch their finances just to have a horse. I don’t think it is fair to expect YO to carry you as they have outgoings just the same as you. Cutting back on supplements (or ‘nice to haves’) and pricier feed is an option but if you are on a minimum already there is nothing to save there. For me, it is more a case of what I can cut back at home. We are all travelling less, not paying show fees, if affiliated, this can be temporarily stopped, there are always options. If I were a YO I would be worried about ‘fly by nights’ who leave instead of paying the debt racked up.
 
I’m on full livery with DIY at weekends at the moment but this is on a yard with great facilities. The yard does offer DIY but what I’d be off setting in full livery, I would be using in petrol and additional services. I also had back surgery last year so went on full livery to reduce heavy lifting on my back - if I can I want to keep it this way.
If push came to shove and I was financially struggling, I would give the required notice, and move my horse to a cheaper DIY closer to home (of which there are a few closer to home) although this would be a last resort as I like where he is to manage his weight and my back. When the pandemic hit I messaged my YO to advise her that I had worked my finances on a worst case scenario basis and that I’d be very stable until at least the end of June to remain on full livery as I am now. As we are only on one visit per day I have services one end of the day on weekends- I’ve not had a bill for this yet and I’m unsure if we will be charged these additional but I totally understand if we do.
Of course, I can’t say beyond the current pandemic, if myself or my husband might get made redundant further down the line, but if that could be the case for anyone pandemic or not.
As it is he’s still working full time and I have my salary reduced by 80% (but not furloughed and paid by my employer) for up to 4 months from May. So I’ve forecast the next four months on this basis but also if he gets furloughed (which is now looking unlikely) and we are both on 80%, I’ve costed that too. Things will be tight but we will get by quite smoothly.
I would never expect my YO to credit me anything. I always have enough savings to pay my one months notice so I’m not waiting for pay day or worrying about the next livery bill. I know I could get out without owing a penny and I then have other options to significantly cut his costs without compromising his care - I’d probably just have a knackered back but so be it!
I don’t have credit cards but I’d rather a debt on that or borrow off family/friends than borrow off a small business who are trying to survive too. I also have other fall backs like lowering my pension %, mortgage holidays, council tax holidays etc but I’m saving them for when I absolutely need to as you only end up paying back in the long run anyway, a false economy IMO if you have the cash flow.

I think everyone’s financial circumstances at the moment, even if you are in employment, are still sensitive and it’s a testing time for all. If not now, later down the line, when the economy inevitably slumps further, people will still struggle. What this means for more expensive yards or the industry as a whole, time will tell ?
 
PictusSweetDreams said:
luckily (in a sense) we have savings as we have bought a house recently to renovate and move into which we saved for a long time for. These savings will have to be used for living at the moment, it’s a necessity bills are paid and not a necessity the house is renovated. Luckily we have a mortgage holiday, credit card is maxed out due to the renovations but we are doing a balance transfer (not a clue what this is - OH deals with all that!) to pay it off so that’s one less debt that needs immediately dealing with.

I wouldn’t ever use my YO as “credit” it isn’t fair. I’d rather apply for payment holidays for credit cards, mortgages etc. But that’s just me, I appreciate not everyone has that option
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Why has the YO been paid late then, out of interest, if you have the savings to pay them? Again sorry, not having a go, just curious :)
 
@Michen

YO hasn’t been paid late, there’s no set date that we have to pay. I have fallen out of my usual routine of payment and she checked to see if all was okay that’s all.
 
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