Livery - And inexperienced owners

Well I had no grounding in horse management when I was younger, riding was right at the bottom of my parents list for me, and apart from an occasional one week riding holiday or a couple of lessons in some rubbish riding school, I was definitely an adult when I really started learning about equine care and management.

I guess I did things that some people would look down on - I did evening classes in stable management, I scrimped and saved enough to have 3 lessons a week in riding and management and passed my BHS Stage 1 first time. I took three goes to pass my Riding and Road Safety Exam! - but I did it in the end. I went for more evening classes and took my BHS Horse Owners Certificate and passed that. I went to lecture demos, groomed for friends at shows and hunter trials, and spent three or four seasons as a steward in the working hunter ring for the local riding club. I even stewarded at the County Show.

At the age of 28 I bought my first horse, he was only 5, backed and ridden away, luckily he is in his original owners words, 'A true Christian' and I still have him 10 years later. He has always been in DIY livery (why would you want anything else), I think that I have never knowingly caused him pain or suffering through my ignorance. I was lucky that at most of the yards I was at there were nice people who you could share ideas and opinions with - we helped each other. If I didn't know about something, I read a book! I learnt the action of a double bridle and how light of hand you had to be by setting one up on a banister post and watching the action of the bits. Many times I discovered I knew things that people who had been practically born on a horse were clueless about, but I wouldn't hold that against them, because they knew things I didn't too!

So to me age is irrelevant, my horses teach me something new everyday and I accept that with open arms.
 
To a certain extent its fair enough people not having the best of knowledge as long as they are willing to listen to other peoples advice. However, there are basic things which no one should have a horse if they dont know. Things like turning out, feeding and just general horsemanship.

I also agree that where possible its best to learn these things when your younger which I have done having grown up with ponies and stuff. However, I know of several people who have taken up riding later on in life and do a great job.

Always good to listen to other peoples advice though.
 
... but I agree with the OP about seeing new people come with horses and not really having a clue. Things tend to go wrong!
 
I would have loved to have learnt about horse management when I was younger but my parents were too poor to buy me a pony or even pay for riding lessons. Not all of us were lucky enough to be born in the saddle.

Now I'm older and have a good job I can afford a horse of my own, but lack the time (and to some extent the experience) to do DIY livery. I have always kept my horses on Full Livery in the care of a professional yard manager - why shouldnt I ? I work bl**dy hard and owning a horse is my reward.

The "if you don't DIY you're not a proper horse owner" clique are just a bunch of inverse snobs. On any given day I'll already be cantering around the arena while they're all still shovelling their horses s**t.

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I don't think it's inverse snobbery at all - it is enjoying the whole package and not just the exciting stuff like "cantering round the arena". Personally I'd hate to turn up to find my horse tacked up and then hand her over at the end of my ride. The grooming, feeding, sh*t shovelling, etc are actually pretty enjoyable if you give them a go.
 
oh for goodness' sake, who exactly said you are a "lesser" owner? All I said was that I enjoy doing all of it, and it's not a case of either/or, guess what, DIYers can have time to ride as well. I have a good job and not all that much spare time but somehow I manage. I choose DIY because I have always enjoyed the experience of owning, not just riding. It seems you have a bit of a complex for some reason?
 
Here, here Burtondog. I completely agree about the inverse snobery! Like you, the only thing I don't do is s**t shoveling. When I'm at the yard I do whatever needs doing with her, catch, turn her out, change her rugs etc. And of course I do my own grooming. We will never convince the 'I am superior because I am on DIY' brigade though - they seem to need to think that we can't possible have a good relationship with our horses because we don't muck out (I wonder if they can afford to be on Full Livery, sour grapes me thinks)!
 
Maybe I do have a complex !!!! LOL. It wouldn't be surprising. There are so many Threads on here about 'newcomers' or 'inexperienced' horse owners - should it be tolerated, or even allowed ?....blah blah. Usually in the same threads somebody mentions high value horses on full livery..... blah blah.

All I'm saying is that no-one should begrudge anyone the joys of horseownership - and by that I'm certainly not pointing a finger at any particular person who does - just that some people do, and I don't think that's nice.

I may not know the difference between deep litter or any other kind of mucking out, but at least I have the sense place my horse in the hands of a professional who does. Surely, that should count for a lot !

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What about the people who don't come into horses until they're adults? How can you say all people should learn to handle horses as youngsters?

I was 32 before I started riding at all. I had a horse not that long afterwards and kept him on our farm, having lessons twice a week. It was a baptism of fire but I'm responsible and have done everything I can to educate myself. I'm not adverse to asking for advice when I need it. I might not know everything, who does, but I've looked after my lot for three years and I don't think I've done a bad job of it.

Plenty of people have owned horses for alot longer and do a worse job than me.
 
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Do you think people owning horses are best learning horse mgt when they are younger?

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Well yes, it stands to reason that this is best......because by the time they are an adult they will have so many more years of experience under their belt which other people of the same age who came into horses as an adult will never have as much lifetime horse experience as the person who started as a child.

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Also do you think it is wrong for a livery to own horses on full livery never having looked after a horse themselves?

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No I don't. I think it is better to be honest. I have a number of novice/first time adult owners on my yard and they are fantastic! They listen, they learn and although their horses are on full care here, they still understand what goes on and why. My worry is always novice people going out and buying a horse and taking it home with them, when they know absolutely nothing about horses.
 
Tricky one.
A novice owner who surounds themself with good experianced people and soaks everything up like a sponge will have a happy healthy horse.
On the other hand, an "experianced" person who refuses to listen to people who know more then them will probably have an unhappy one.

It would be lovely if everyone who loves horses came form a horsey family,or was able to do "owrk for rides" before buying but RS are becoming less and less happy to let people do that so for many the only way to get hnad on time IS to buy.
 
Um, so what exactly are people supposed to do if they don't get their horsey education (presumably a decent one although from what I've seen that's not a given . . .) as youngsters? Not have a horse then? Ever? I can't see that being a) fair or b) good for the industry as a whole.

I don't think I understand. . . are we talking about some sort of enforced certification? Presumably for everyone who owns a horse?

Some of the best educated, most caring owners I know started riding/got horses late in life. They dreamed of the day and worked hard to achieve it, well aware of what they *don't* know. They come at it from an intelligent perspective, looking to learn. (Which isn't always so easily done, especially if more experienced people deem them unworthy of learning about that noble animal, the horse.)

What's *worse*, many of these people have carved time for horses out of busy lives that simply do not let them PROPERLY care for a horse on DIY. Of course people make different choices but it's unrealistic - and a bit simplistic - to say someone who doesn't muck out every morning is by default a bad horseman. (What about many top riders, by the way? Most of the ones I know don't actually completely look after their own horses . . . does that make them unfeeling?) I'd MUCH rather see someone pay to have a horse cared for/ridden/trained properly if they can't do it all themselves. Hopefully by doing this the owner also opens him/herself up to experienced, talented professionals who can help with the learning process. I don't think this makes an owner irresponsible, quite the opposite.

I personally don't think people should have a horse until they are in a good situation to look after it, with both knowledge and resources. That said, I hope someone in over his/her head gets help and accepts supervision. Being met with scorn might precipitate enough fear and embarassment to stop someone getting help, might it not?

And I know some people who have been riding "forever" who quite frankly have some odd, outdated, even dangerous ideas. Some of these people seem to have stopped learning round about the time they hit puberty.

Of course education and experience will make people better horse owners. But I can't see the point of imposing a time limit on the aquiring of knowledge.

As a specious argument I CAN change the oil in my car but I don't. Does that make me a bad car owner? Someone else can do it faster, more easily and more safely. Of course I realise there is a "bonding" component with horses but I'm still not convinced who puts the feed bucket every day actually makes all the much difference to a horse. I've had great relationships with horses I barely saw except to handle/ride and looked after horses everyday who didn't seem to care much about me the rest of the time.

If you love doing it and your life allows for it, then DIY is great. If it's a huge hassle or there's some reason someone else can do a better job isn't that really what's in the horse's best interests? Many people I know would love to look after their horses everyday but it's not in the cards.
 
Why on earth should they learn how to muck out and all the other things as long as they are happy to pay someone who is experienced to do all this for them. They should check that they use a respected and reputable yard so they knwo the horse will be well looked after but beyond that if they want to pay someone else to do it then I don't have the slightest problem. It happens in all areas of life, I'd rather see a well looked after horse on full livery than the more common site of a complete novice who has no idea about looking after a horse and the cost making a complete mess of things and the horse on DIY
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At the end of the day caring for a horse isn't rocket science. An affinity for the horse, common sense and being willing to learn will see most people through. There are lots of opinions out there on how to do things. I soon worked out who I trusted, took advice from them and ignored the others. There is also so much info in books, magazines, forums etc available to help people.
Now I'm a few years into horse ownership I'm at a small DIY yard with only one other person who has a clue. We manage fine but I accept it wouldn't have been a good starting point for a novice owner and am glad I had more experienced people around when I got my first horse.
As long as someone is willing to listen and learn I can't see a problem.
 
Why do such a lot of people in the horse world want to turn everything into a competition? XC, SJ, Dressage etc are competitions but mucking out isn't! My horses have always been kept on full livery because I run a my own company and simply don't have the time to do DIY. If I wasn't working I would do DIY but it wouldn't make me a better or more knowledgeable person since I already know how to muck out and do all the other everyday horsey tasks.

Also, adults are just as capable of learning how to look after a horse as children. In fact, give me a hardworking, sensible, mother in her 40s and watch her learn how to look after a horse and then watch a know-it-all teenage girl and see who makes the best job of it. There are plenty of arrogant children out there you know who don't have a clue and, what's more haven't got the right mindset to enable them to learn either.
 
QR

This is interesting. Plenty of people prepared to rant about inexperienced owners..but are they the same people who would take offence if somebody else at the yard dared to venture an opinion about how they do something - or would this ehlpful and possibly concerned person then be labelled a yard busy body and ranted about?

It doesn't matter if you have had horses for 3 months or 30 years, none of us ever stop learning IMO, and those who think they know it all are more scary to me than those who acknowledge that they have a good deal to learn.

When I first bought a horse I was blessed with a YO who made it her business to teach me everything I needed to know about yard management. Many here would have left her yard in no time because it could have been concluded that she was quite interfering, and she was - but my horse benefitted from her interference and so did I.
 
QR

I hope to get a horse when I can afford one, after I've bought a house. If I ever have a horse it will be on full livery. That way when I have to work late/unpredictable hours, the horse's regime will not suffer. That doesn't mean that I don't want to look after the horse, it means that the demands of my job are such that it would be unfair on the horse for me to keep it on DIY.

As for experience when young, my parents didn't approve of me riding, they wouldn't pay for lessons and also would have been very against the idea of me working for rides. My cousins had their own pony, my bedroom overlooked the local stable's cross country course, but I only managed to get near a horse when my parents and I came to the mutual understanding that holidays spent together were not fun for me or them, and let me pick a PGL holiday, which I spent at a stables. When there we had to catch our own horses from the field (in an organised group), muck out, groom, tack up etc, so I have some basic knowledge. My OH is an equine vet, so I've picked up some knowledge from him, and providing we are still together then, I'd have a fair amount of back up from him.

Now that I have a job and my own money, I get riding lessons twice a week, and will help untack/take horses to field if allowed. I also fence judge when this fits in around other commitments and would do anything asked of me at a stables.

Am still a bit of a wuss though, so my first horse probably will be expensive, as sensible calm schoolmasters usually are, given they are so much in demand.
 
I don't think you can discriminate because people didn't do it when they were young - I only started riding when I was 18 and at 26, am now on my third horse. I may have made mistakes but with the first horse I was on a yard where he was on full livery and my instructor taught me how to do everything. My horses haven't missed out on anything just because I didn't start when I was younger. Current one if perfectly well looked after, happy and healthy.

And surely it's better for inexperienced owners to have a horse on full livery where someone else does most of the care and they can learn, rather than on DIY or at home and screw it up?

We didn't all have an upbringing where we were lucky enough to be around horses so I don't think you can make general sweeping statements like that.
 
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Stella, how rude.

[/ QUOTE ] Why do you think its rude? Are you one of the people to whom I refer?

Maybe we should have a thread discussing whether people that have been in horses for donkeys years should no longer be entitled to continue to own them until they prove that they have brought themself up-to-date with feeding, equine physiology/physiotherapy, equine dentistry, healthier bedding etc. There would certainly be a lot of confiscated horses don't you think?!
 
QR: Just to make it clear - I was not saying that adults cannot learn horsemanship. What I was saying is that IMO it stands you in excellent stead if you already have a good grounding as a youth. I realise that is not always possible.

But I still maintain that I don't like to see totally and utterly inexperienced owners buying a horse and sticking it on full livery. IMO the horse is ultimately the owner's responsibility and how can they meet that commitment if they are lacking in even the most basic knowledge......It is thus putting all teh responsibility onto the YO
 
Im not so sure. If the horse is on full livery then there is somebody else looking after if and they can give any advice that the owner might need, everyone has to start somewhere and for an adult, it can be quite difficult to find a riding school that will teach you without charging stupid amounts for what is basically slave labour. At least with full livery, you have someone on hand at all times to keep an eye out and ensure the horse is being looked after properly.
 
I have to be honest, threads like this really annoy me! Honestly, who bloody cares whether someone is on Full or DIY? If it suits them and suits their horses, does it really matter?!
If someone chooses Full, good for them, it doesn't mean they are too lazy, it probably means they have limited time. If someone chooses DIY does it mean they don't have enough money to keep their horse? No, just that they probably like it that way.

God, get a grip people!
 
Oh, and while I'm on a rant, Though I started riding at 3, I only got my 1st horse 8 weeks ago and I think I am doing fine. I ask the right questions when I need to and my horse is happy & healthy. Is that not what matters? Or do I need a degree in how to own a horse?

Owning a horse isn't that difficult is it really? You need some knowledge and a fair amount of common sense, and yes, some support goes along way too. If you don't know something (and let's face it that's all of us at some point) What's wrong with asking someone or finding out in a book / on the internet?
 
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