Livery Contract - Vet Euthanasia

There was a point when there was no such thing as a livery contract, people trusted each other and suing was a thing that happened in America. Now it has passed to this side of the pond that many are not willing to take responsibility for their own actions and decisions and with some the idea of getting something for nothing means that costs have gone up because of insurance.

I would, as an experienced person, make any decision whether a livery was PTS or not.
If I found a horse with a leg swinging then I would A) Call the Hunt Kennels for the knackerman to come dispose of the body and put down. B) Call the vet. C) Call the owner. In that order.

I would expect the vet and the hunt to arrive at the same time (roughly) if the owner could be contacted then that would be best but if they couldn't then the horse would be destroyed to put it out of its misery - as I would expect anyone to do should the position be reversed.

If it was something more complicated like an internal injury then treatment would be tried anyway.

My interest would be for the best of the horse - not the owner.

An incident happened a few years ago whereby a racehorse trainer used a nearby field for galloping. The lads were working up the hill when one horse had a femur shatter. It was sticking through the skin.
Two of the (young) lads rode down to us and asked to use the phone. (Not many people had mobiles then) I left a message on the answer phone. Called the Hunt and the vet.
Took a couple of rugs up to the field, got the gates unlocked so the Hunt could get in. Sent all bar one horse back so the injured one was not alone.
Hunt arrived before the vet. Couldn't get hold of anyone from the trainers.
There was no hesitation in sending the sound horse off and having the other shot. The pain was already hitting it as it had taken about 45 minutes from start to finish.

I took all the decision and it was on my neck should things go about face.
No sooner had the horse gone down then the Head Lad arrived having got the message. There was never a thought that the owners should have been contacted, I would not have known how, the trainer thanked me for getting it all done and cleared. The vet took a long time to get back to anyone.
No problems with insurance as vet signed the forms after seeing the damage at the kennels.

It was for the best of the horse.

It really never crossed my mind that I could have been sued. I would have had several professional people backing me had it occurred.

It has happened to me several times that a decision has had to be made - people who know me know that I will do all I can for the animal and if the worse has to happen, it is for the best.
 
Sadly, I'm one of those who has lost a horse in a catastrophic field incident - swinging leg is most delicate description.

The yard, correctly, contacted the vet first and then me. I was told there was no hope and we agreed vet would let my horse go immediately on arrival. There was no chance of me getting there before the vet and the horse would have died of its injuries if there had been much of a delay.

YO is being very sensible dealing with this issue (hopefully including form of euthanasia) and ultimately, your vet will make the final decision.
 
FH - I couldn't agree with you more!

Being sued may cost money but money is not the be all and end all - a person has to live with themselves and yes, I doubt that in any true cut and dried incident the final judgment would be in favour of excruciating suffering in order to stroke an owners ego.

I've looked after countles horses that were not my own and if there's one thing I'm sure of it's that having the money to be the owner does not by default give an extra or ultimate wisdom, the vet is actually more qualified and in certain situations anyone that understands horses is more than able to judge. In regard to using the knackermen over the vet, I agree in full that there are times that speed trumps 'A levels'!
 
My horse was pts before my YO/friend could get hold of me and it was totally in accordance with my wishes although I hadn't actually signed anything. I was her first livery when she set up her own yard so others may have signed something, but I didn't. I started a thread about this very subject that may be interesting reading as well.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=526915
 
You're not signing to say that you agree to your YO ringing up and arranging for your horse to be destroyed tomorrow.

It is only in an absolute dire emergency when the owner cannot be spoken to-normally the vets would speak to you, at least by phone, first.

The only thing I disagree with is people saying they'd call the hunt-I would only ever want a vet to make the final decision on my animal and I would write that into my agreement.

X
 
I've been in this situation and legally the vet has to make the final decision on welfare grounds. You couldn't just call the hunt or knacker man, Esp. If clients horse is insured as they won't pay out unless done on humane grounds. I think after dealing with horses for a number of years you know with gut instinct when one isn't going to make it. As a yard owner you do your best to make the horse comfortable and wait for the vet. Our vets are great and always contactable on mobile, they know if they get an urgent ca from me saying its "bad" then it's on deaths door and run like the wind! The tricky one to deal with is colic though, as not all owners will want to put through an operation and if not contactable this is a hard call to make. As a yard owner you are best to get vet and get horse on lorry to vet hospital (if you can't get hold
Of owner) as not only sometimes does a bumpy ride sort them out but also it buys you a little more time. I think it's important that a yard owner or manager knows firstly your views on colic ops and secondly if your horse is insured or not!
 
Interestingly, this thread has given me something to think about.
I keep my horses on a completely DIY yard, owner has horses but is mentally ill and rarely ventures out onto the yard (i look after her horses for her). A lot of you are saying you wouldn't have your horses on a yard where you couldn't rely on the owner if you weren't there and that hadn't actually occurred to me before. I dont know that in a situation like that (of course not swinging leg situation because thats an absolute no brainer) that i could trust anyone on my yard to make that decision for me. Many liveries are the bunny hugging type to try absolutely anything even if it meant additional suffering to the animal before pts. And i would always pts a week too soon than a day too late. Food for thought...
 
We have written up our contracts but not given them to liveries yet (almost there!)

It is in the contracts that emergency euthanasia is allowed in the event that the owner cannot be contacted. This would not be a standard injury and would be if there was no other option by the vet. It was actually placed in on the comments of several liveries requesting it.

Having horses ourselves it is not something we'd take lightly and we have 100% faith in the vet (all liveries and us use the same one) that if he said it needed doing straight away and we couldn't contact we'd do it every time.

It would be a welfare issue to keep something in that situation alive in my opinion :(

Pan
 
I trust my yard owner implicitly but I already have an agreement with the vet - I put it in writing - that he had my permission to PTS if - in his professional opinion - it was in the best interest of the horse. We had a discussion about what circumstances would apply and we agreed that if for any reason he was unable to contact me or that my yard owner was not sure regarding the decision then he had the final say.

I decided this after the decision to PTS was delayed because an owner was too distraught to say the words PTS to an emergency vet - her horse was very old and it's quality of life was diminishing. It suffered a very bad bout of colic and the emergency vet came out but wouldn't PTS without the owner's express decision. I know the vet was only covering her back, she was very young and I think the owner's normal vet would have been firmer with the owner.

When I have gone on holiday and am not able to be contacted by my yard owner I write a letter giving her permission to make these sorts of decisions on my behalf - I think it's only fair.

Perhaps I am lucky in that I trust my YO
 
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rhino said:
I thought if the injury met the BEVA criteria for immediate humane destruction, the vet didn't need the owner's permission anyway? Your YO would not be the one making the decision, just calling the vet.
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Exactly. I really don't see the problem.

I've never had to sign a contract for any yard I've been on. But I have actually given express permission for the horse to be destroyed in my absence if it was deemed necessary by the vet, in the form of writing and held with my passport.
 
Horses aren't on a livery yard, but on the rare occasion we go away whoever is taking care of them has the authority to give vets permission to pts. I trust my vets and know they would only make the decision if it was absolutely essential on humane grounds. I leave the same instructions for the dogs and cats too.
 
The only thing I disagree with is people saying they'd call the hunt-I would only ever want a vet to make the final decision on my animal and I would write that into my agreement.
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I am going to describe the situation that prompted my saying that. It is/was beyond my own, the YO's, the vet's and another experienced owner's imagination. I cannot concieve of anyone not wishing the fastest end possible. I suggest if you already believe such situations are possible that you give the next bit a miss.

the first we knew of the incident was the distressed owner running into the yard, of course we went to help. Initially I'd been saying 'you never know - let's wait and see', then I saw and there was zero question.

The horse had reared going through a gateway and landed over the large, concrete gate post. The gate post (not fence post!) had gone through the horse's belly. Some of the horse's innards were on the floor, a huge (about twice the size of a pillow) amount of severed parts were still hanging from the hooked horse. The horses front feet were in a muddy ditch at the side of the gateway, his back feet reached the ground toes only, he was literally hanging unable to keep traction from his forelegs. Every time the horse had a surge of panic he ripped himself further and more dropped on the floor. He was still alive, how - god knows but he was still fighting for life. The vet was contacted as per first, the hunt unavailable (can't remember why). The vets also had an issue that as a practice they only carried one gun and it was miles away, after this incident that policy was changed. The vet that got there had no gun. She was (the vet) in her mid 40's and well respected as a large animal vet, for years she had worked in south africa and said that she thought she had seen everything possible, until then. The horse had lost so much blood that she could not successfully inject - insanely the act of trying resulted in the horses last surge which freed him. Obviously he was unable to stand and now lying writhing on the floor. I've seen end stage colic, and I am describing something reaching far beyond that. The vet agreed with my boss to cut the jugular while we sat on the horses neck to restrain. I would have gladly lost a limb to have a knackerman with a gun present. I would have zero respect for any owner who believed their purchasing power meant any real right to make what was happening last longer. Not one person actually present would have hesitated in making the same decision even if they had known with certainty they would be sued. Reading the other thread the words 'regardless of circumstance' to me just mean imagination fail.

That was about 10 years ago, but writing it I can still see the dangling stirrups - everything, every detail, it is as complete as it was 10 minutes after the event.
 
I put a bit in my livery contracts asking owners to outline what they would like done if we are unable to contact them and their horse needs to be put to sleep with something like a broken leg. They have complete control over what happens, right down to being able to say that if possible they would like the horse stabled on a high amount of pain relief and dope, and made comfortable until such time as they can be contacted.

I leave my own views out of it, as it is up to the owner how they want their horse to be put to sleep, but I will hold horses for any livery that asks (sadly I had to do so two weeks ago for one). It's comforting for me to know that if the worst happens and I can't get hold of the owner, I will be doing what they want for their horse.
 
Be careful what happens after the event, one case, the vet injected [broken femur], that was really the end of his involvement you would assume, but the insurance company asked for a post mortem!
The vet had issued a certificate, and the horse had been cremated, these things have to be done quickly, most would assume a certificate was adequate, and really a pm incurs extra expense, not to mention the practical problem of dealing with a decomposing corpse.
 
The only thing I disagree with is people saying they'd call the hunt-I would only ever want a vet to make the final decision on my animal and I would write that into my agreement.
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If the leg is broken, and swinging around - quite frankly you call whomever is nearest.
 
Starzaan said:
I put a bit in my livery contracts asking owners to outline what they would like done if we are unable to contact them and their horse needs to be put to sleep with something like a broken leg. They have complete control over what happens, right down to being able to say that if possible they would like the horse stabled on a high amount of pain relief and dope, and made comfortable until such time as they can be contacted.

I leave my own views out of it, as it is up to the owner how they want their horse to be put to sleep, but I will hold horses for any livery that asks (sadly I had to do so two weeks ago for one). It's comforting for me to know that if the worst happens and I can't get hold of the owner, I will be doing what they want for their horse.
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It is not really good enough to say, it is the end of your involvement, as a YO you have a Duty of Care, and if you decide not to call a vet [horse is in extremis], then you are neglecting the horse. It is up to the vet to decide to put down, not you, he won't ask, he will tell you what he is going to do.
In my opinion in the case of calling a vet out to a horse which requires veterinary treatment, as the keeper of the horse, you have to agree to the treatment recommended if the owner is not contactable for any reason.
What about loan horses, you may not have the details of ownership, you may not know the actual circumstances of people who bring horses on to your yard, you may are assume that the person who looks after the horse is the owner, but it may be a child, or another person. all these things are to some extent irrelevant if you are the YO, and you consider every horse from a "duty of Care " perspective.
 
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It is something that everyone should think about, especially those with no contract or with no hands on YO, in a real emergency will anyone even take it on themselves to call a vet if they cannot contact you?

I saw this several years ago, a horse with obvious colic, a YM with no idea trying to contact the owner who was not there, no mobiles then but still possible to be out of signal or in a meeting etc., I was only visiting the yard to give a lesson but tried to get them to call a vet, they had been watching the horse for some time. Eventually the owner arrived, vet came out but the horse later was pts, I am sure if it had been treated earlier it may have survived and even if not it would not have suffered for so long.

I, as a YO will contact vet first in all cases of colic and obviously if there was a catastrophic injury, all my owners know this and it is agreed that colic is not left, if surgery was required there is time to make that decision or in the case of one horse the owner has signed to say no surgery for her horse.

Everyone should have some emergency plan, although it will hopefully never be required.
 
We don't have the PTS bit in our contract but we have


* in case of emergency if the owner or owners vet cannot be contacted the yard vet will be called and the payment sent to the owner*



I think OP This contract should be re worded

it should have

In case of emergency when the horse needs to be euthanised if all attempts to reach the owner or contact the fails. Attempts to reach the emediate family will be in motion if they cannot be contacted. the yard YO will have no option but to euthanise the animal to end suffering.[/B



Maybe there should be a section in the contract where by the owners writes and signs what their wishes are if the horse is injured and they cannot be reached.

like :

gun
injection!

Like Hunt
cremation
burial etc
 
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Miss L Toe said:
It is not really good enough to say, it is the end of your involvement, as a YO you have a Duty of Care, and if you decide not to call a vet [horse is in extremis], then you are neglecting the horse.
It is up to the vet to decide to put down, not you.
In my opinion in the case of calling a vet out to a horse which requires veterinary treatment, as the keeper of the horse, you have to agree to the treatment recommended.
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Obviously I would never make the decision to put a horse down without the vet's say so. I was merely saying that I have a point in my livery contracts which enables the owner of each horse to write down exactly how they would like their horse to be pts if they can't be contacted. I don't ask for their permission for me to be able to make that decision myself, I ask for their permission to allow a vet to put a horse to sleep if they deem that to be the only responsible option.
 
Ours says words to effect that in an emergency situation 'all reasonable efforts will be made to contact the owner on the numbers provided-if they cannot be contacted and the attending vet is if the opinion that the only possible option,for the horse's welfare,is PTS,the owner agrees that the veterinary advice be acted upon in their absence.'
 
Starzaan said:
Obviously I would never make the decision to put a horse down without the vet's say so. I was merely saying that I have a point in my livery contracts which enables the owner of each horse to write down exactly how they would like their horse to be pts if they can't be contacted. I don't ask for their permission for me to be able to make that decision myself, I ask for their permission to allow a vet to put a horse to sleep if they deem that to be the only responsible option.
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Yes, what I am saying is, as others have pointed out, that the vet is bound by the law and his professional duty, the owner may want the horse to be put down in a nice clover field, but the vet will not move a horse with a broken femur out of its stable. It is the vet who makes the decision in this case, nothing to do with the owner or the YO or anyone else.
 
This thread has strayed a bit from its original focus. Anyway, to add to the debate - I agree with Starzaan because not all PTS decisions are quite as black and white as the catastrophic injuries that the vet can make an immediate call on. What about a colic where the options are PTS or operate when the treatment has a huge strain on horse and pocket? Or a serious tendon injury where the horse can be made comfortable to allow the owner to say goodbye if that's what they want?
 
Miss L Toe said:
Yes, what I am saying is, as others have pointed out, that the vet is bound by the law and his professional duty, the owner may want the horse to be put down in a nice clover field, but the vet will not move a horse with a broken femur out of its stable. It is the vet who makes the decision in this case, nothing to do with the owner or the YO or anyone else.
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I expect that Starzaan is alluding to the bullet or an injection, rather than a clover covered field.......
 
Foxhunter49 said:
I would, as an experienced person, make any decision whether a livery was PTS or not.
If I found a horse with a leg swinging then I would A) Call the Hunt Kennels for the knackerman to come dispose of the body and put down. B) Call the vet. C) Call the owner. In that order.
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I would go mad if someone called the hunt kennels to collect my very much loved horse i would totally understand her needing to be pts if the vet recommended that i totally agree with but i have my horses cremated and i keep there ashes so calling the local hunt kennals is a big no no for me!!!!
 
I think having a YO you can trust is very important. A friend of mine's horse broke her leg in the field a few months ago and the bone came through an artery. Her YO rang her then rang the vet - fortunately she arrived before the vet as when the vet got there she was young an inexperienced and wanted to X-ray etc :eek: Both friend and YO stuck their foot down and horse was PTS.
When I move yards if it's not in my contract I will give my new YO a written statement with full permission to PTS my horse in case of emergency.

Also FUBAR BUNDY = Fouled Up Beyond All Repair But Unfortunately Not Dead Yet
 
Also FUBAR BUNDY = Fouled Up Beyond All Repair But Unfortunately Not Dead Yet
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The one I know the F isn't fouled, and R is recognition! The above though is an excellent sanitised version, had I known it I would've posted it without concern. :o
 
Booboos said:
Vets don't go around suggesting PTS randomnly! They would only do so in an extreme emergency so their advice should be followed asap to avoid the animal suffering. I would, by far, prefer my horse had a swift and painfree death in an emergency, than to be left in agony waiting from me or my proxy to turn up.
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Just what I was going to say. Some people are reacting to this post as if vets and YOs are willy-nilly deciding to have horses PTS for the sheer hell of it. Don't be daft! It would only be on the strictest instructions of a vet and only in the direst of emergencies. Surely this is appropriate for any animal? You'd rather your animal waited in pain, just so you could give him/her one last pat as it writhed in pain, lie in shock or bleed to death??? Surely not?

clydesdale said:
I would go mad if someone called the hunt kennels to collect my very much loved horse i would totally understand her needing to be pts if the vet recommended that i totally agree with but i have my horses cremated and i keep there ashes so calling the local hunt kennals is a big no no for me!!!!
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I agree! I don't think I'd be calling the local hunt kennels for anyone's horse - no matter what the matter was. I'd contact a qualified equine vet, then the owner. If the owner wanted the horse carcass to go to the dogs - fine. But I'd let them make those arrangements. I am not squeamish about it, but there are few people who would want their horse dragged off without them having been given the opportunity to say 'goodbye' - even if the vet has already PTS on humane grounds.
 
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Magnetic Sparrow said:
This thread has strayed a bit from its original focus. Anyway, to add to the debate - I agree with Starzaan because not all PTS decisions are quite as black and white as the catastrophic injuries that the vet can make an immediate call on. What about a colic where the options are PTS or operate when the treatment has a huge strain on horse and pocket? Or a serious tendon injury where the horse can be made comfortable to allow the owner to say goodbye if that's what they want?
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Yes, many things are less B&W, and these are more likely to occur. With technological advances many horses could live through many treatments, but have a poor subsequent quality of life.
Not all colics are operable, not all would make it to the veterinary facilities ie they are not "fit to travel" Not all horses are kept at suitable [treatment] facilities, but usually there is time to find someone to take the decision, you will probably find vets do not operate if they do not think they will get paid, but under their codes of Practice" and the Law, they are not allowed to let a horse suffer.
 
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