Livery Contract - Vet Euthanasia

Im not on a yard, but have been, i am normally always available at the end of the phone, no yo will ever give permission for any of mine to be pts, they had permission to call MY vets in an emergency, and my vets have my full permission in my records to do what he/she thinks is best in my absence, i trust them with my horses or they wouldnt be my vets.
 
Perhaps you need to clarify with the YO or ask them to change the wording slightly, so that the horse would only be PTS if the vet deemed it absolutely necessary. That way, you can be certain that the decision would rest with the vet and not with the YO. I actually suspect this is what your YO intends anyway, but it is always good to clarify. Something along the lines of "If the vet deems it absolutely unavoidable, the horse may be PTS without the owner's express permission if it has been impossible to contact them, despite every effort being made".
After all, if your horse was in a terrible state, you wouldn't want them to suffer unnecessarily. Although actually, I'm not sure what the ethics of this are from the vet's point of view. Would they PTS anyway in this sort of situation, even without the owner's permission?
I do know that my sister's YO recently had to decide to have one of the livery horses PTS without the owner's permission because they couldn't contact her. The horse was in absolute agony - as far as I'm aware she had colic, but it was so severe that she was throwing herself on the floor and smashing her stable apart. There was no way she could have been transported to the nearest equine hospital and no-one wanted the poor mare to suffer any more than she was already, so the YO made the decision on the vet's recommendation.
We have never had to sign anything similar on our yard, but the YO's daughter is actually a vet and lives on site, and I know that if it came to it she or her mother would make the decision because they're not the sort to let a horse suffer any more than it needed to. I'm comfortable with this, even though I hate the idea of not being there for my mare. Ultimately, I suppose I know that it wouldn't make any difference if I was there or not.
 
amymay said:
If the leg is broken, and swinging around - quite frankly you call whomever is nearest.
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Couldn't agree more!

clydesdale said:
I would go mad if someone called the hunt kennels to collect my very much loved horse i would totally understand her needing to be pts if the vet recommended that i totally agree with but i have my horses cremated and i keep there ashes so calling the local hunt kennals is a big no no for me!!!!
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Have you seen a horse break a cannon bone? You'd rather wait for the vet, even if they couldn't get to you for forty minutes than have the hunt who could be there in ten?

Really? I don't want to pick holes in your logic but I suggest you really go away and think about what is more important. Your need to have the ashes or the welfare of your horse

RG, it's a totally normal clause and as everyone's said it's only for absolutely dire emergencies. You'll be fine I'm sure :)
 
RuthM said:
I am going to describe the situation that prompted my saying that. It is/was beyond my own, the YO's, the vet's and another experienced owner's imagination. I cannot concieve of anyone not wishing the fastest end possible. I suggest if you already believe such situations are possible that you give the next bit a miss.

the first we knew of the incident was the distressed owner running into the yard, of course we went to help. Initially I'd been saying 'you never know - let's wait and see', then I saw and there was zero question.

The horse had reared going through a gateway and landed over the large, concrete gate post. The gate post (not fence post!) had gone through the horse's belly. Some of the horse's innards were on the floor, a huge (about twice the size of a pillow) amount of severed parts were still hanging from the hooked horse. The horses front feet were in a muddy ditch at the side of the gateway, his back feet reached the ground toes only, he was literally hanging unable to keep traction from his forelegs. Every time the horse had a surge of panic he ripped himself further and more dropped on the floor. He was still alive, how - god knows but he was still fighting for life. The vet was contacted as per first, the hunt unavailable (can't remember why). The vets also had an issue that as a practice they only carried one gun and it was miles away, after this incident that policy was changed. The vet that got there had no gun. She was (the vet) in her mid 40's and well respected as a large animal vet, for years she had worked in south africa and said that she thought she had seen everything possible, until then. The horse had lost so much blood that she could not successfully inject - insanely the act of trying resulted in the horses last surge which freed him. Obviously he was unable to stand and now lying writhing on the floor. I've seen end stage colic, and I am describing something reaching far beyond that. The vet agreed with my boss to cut the jugular while we sat on the horses neck to restrain. I would have gladly lost a limb to have a knackerman with a gun present. I would have zero respect for any owner who believed their purchasing power meant any real right to make what was happening last longer. Not one person actually present would have hesitated in making the same decision even if they had known with certainty they would be sued. Reading the other thread the words 'regardless of circumstance' to me just mean imagination fail.

That was about 10 years ago, but writing it I can still see the dangling stirrups - everything, every detail, it is as complete as it was 10 minutes after the event.
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That is a very different scenario than a yo making a dececision on pts with a vet in your absence, what you describe is a tragedy and imo anyone who could do the job that was going to be quickest would do, infact a farmer with a gun could do it if it were mine in that awful scenario, legal or not, of i had the gun id do it myself.
But in the main this isnt the type of injury/acute illness the yo is going to be involved in, so i am another who would want vet to do the job and not knackerman or hunt.
 
I thought this was standard practice on yards tbh, on yards I have been a livery on and worked on each horse as had there own sheet of paper and at least two emergency contacts, what vet they are registered with and any medical background. They also stated that in the event of all reasonable attempts to get hold of owner and vet advises pts YO or person in charge of yard will give permission for vet to PTS for horses best interests and to prevent suffering.

After my mare went down with colic she had a colic op in the past, YO did get through to me as it was first thing in morning but if it would of been later ( days before mobiles) I may not have been contactable I would have no hesitation in my YO giving permission to PTS. We had a nightmare experience were vet after two visits in the morning refused to come back out cause she was going to die anyway :( my mare finally got PTS at 5:30 in the afternoon. She fought for her life the whole day and it is something I would never want to witness again. Now tht extra distress was due to the vet not on waiting for me to come to give permission but after watching my beloved mare go through what she did that day I could never understand anyone refusing to give permission if it's needed to PTS as soon as its clinically needed and the horse suffers more.
 
For me, it's a standard part of contract, all my liveries sign it, if they can't trust me to make that decision, not only they shouldn't want to be on my yard, but also I wouldn't want to have them here.
The idea that YOs will authorise ''murdering'' a livery's horse on a whim is pretty abhorrent.
I would also probably call the local knackerman first, 2 miles away in the nearest village, as opposed to the nearest equine vet - 40 miles away.
 
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I agree with those who say that mostly this is for dire emergencies. For colic, you could always add in an agreement that if the vet thinks it is operable, then you give permission for surgery. Similar for laminitis, but I'd like to think this would be noticed earlier on a yard!

I always give permission to whoever is looking after them whilst I'm away. My OH is non-horsey, but I have told him that if he's unsure, then err of the side of caution and give permission. I've already had one horse suffer because we weren't there (died in the night), so if further cases like that are preventable, I'm all for it.

Oh and as for the hunt, I think people were referring to the initial deed, not disposal of the carcass. If I thought the hunt could get there quicker, then hunt it would be.
 
If you trust yard owners judgement then sign it - i trust my yard owner to make a decision in my horses best interest in my absence - there are situations that need immediate response and i also trust the vets judgement as well. Its a hard one, but you cant be there all the time and you would not want your animal to suffer
 
The hunt could shoot the horse, remove it to their premises and wait for it to be picked up for cremation, the owner has to pick up the extra charges, but a vet will still need to see carcass if insurance involved, and there will be facilities for a pm on the hunt premises.
Locally, we have a knackerman who will do the deed and remove the carcass, normally does it by appointment. Cash is paid, about £220. I assume it would be more for an a emergency call out, but by that time a vet should have arrived.
Re colic ops, these can run in to several thousand pounds, and can go over the insurance liability, hopefully the owner or his representative is able to make the decision.
 
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jesstickle said:
Have you seen a horse break a cannon bone? You'd rather wait for the vet, even if they couldn't get to you for forty minutes than have the hunt who could be there in ten?

Really? I don't want to pick holes in your logic but I suggest you really go away and think about what is more important. Your need to have the ashes or the welfare of your horse

RG, it's a totally normal clause and as everyone's said it's only for absolutely dire emergencies. You'll be fine I'm sure :)
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Yes my mare broke her cannon bone quite a few years ago the vet was called and was there within 20 mins to pts hunt kennals wouldnt even cross my mind!!!! my horse always comes first
 
marydoll said:
That is a very different scenario than a yo making a dececision on pts with a vet in your absence, what you describe is a tragedy and imo anyone who could do the job that was going to be quickest would do, infact a farmer with a gun could do it if it were mine in that awful scenario, legal or not, of i had the gun id do it myself.
But in the main this isnt the type of injury/acute illness the yo is going to be involved in, so i am another who would want vet to do the job and not knackerman or hunt.
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My initial posting that was about the absolutes, the 'never' and 'regardless of circumstance' and in support of the poster who's reaction to a femur sticking out a horses flesh was that it, in every sense, should be a case of who can get there first.

The horses come first, no way in hell do I think the exchange of cash and act of purchase should change that. I've owned 5 horses in my lifetime, and I am certain that in the exchange of monies I did not receive some amazing wisdom, in no transaction was experience given upon purchase. I have groomed hundreds of horses not mine and in all circumstances their owners still had to learn knowledge and gain experience the old fashioned way, some had it in spades and would have done regardless of purchasing a horse, a few had little but thought that the purchase had miraculously endowed them!

If a YO can't be trusted to do the deed then I would argue they could even less be trusted not to hesitate when the horse needs decisiveness the most. I wish in reality animals and peopl died when by all laws of nature they should - but they don't, sometimes against all belief they clearly don't.
 
clydesdale said:
Yes my mare broke her cannon bone quite a few years ago the vet was called and was there within 20 mins to pts hunt kennals wouldnt even cross my mind!!!! my horse always comes first
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But what if the vet couldn't be there in twenty minutes. We had one do a cannon up the gallops and the vet couldn't get out for forty minutes. We all wished we had a gun as was truly horrific watching her bleed out into her own leg. If the hunt could be there in ten you really wouldn't just let the quickest person come out?
 
martlin said:
For me, it's a standard part of contract, all my liveries sign it, if they can't trust me to make that decision, not only they shouldn't want to be on my yard, but also I wouldn't want to have them here.
The idea that YOs will authorise ''murdering'' a livery's horse on a whim is pretty abhorrent.
I would also probably call the local knackerman first, 2 miles away in the nearest village, as opposed to the nearest equine vet - 40 miles away.
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While i hear what youre saying re trust, do your liveries all know and agree that you veer to the knackerman because hes close ? A vet would be required to see and agree pts, so why not do the job if theyre there ?
Surely its better to have a contract that details how as well as who and agreed removal for each person ?
As for you feeling if folks dont trust you you dont want them, imo trust is built up over time, not something that comes with the title yo or ym, the amount of threads we see regarding management of yards is testamony to this.
So i personally dont see it as black and white, yes you can or no you cant.
My vets whoom i know very well and trust will decide in my absence, regardless of who makes the call, and my friends who would be caring for my horses if i was away and unobtainable would make the neccessary arrangements for uplift and disposal as per my wishes.
I think its different if the owner has not had the foresight to arrange something in their absence, and then a vet would do the neccessary on welfare grounds and disposal would be up to ym if unable to contact the owner.
 
amymay said:
But what does that comment mean in relation to hunt kennels?
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I was told: Really? I don't want to pick holes in your logic but I suggest you really go away and think about what is more important. Your need to have the ashes or the welfare of your horse

so i was saying i always put my horse first???
 
clydesdale said:
I was told: Really? I don't want to pick holes in your logic but I suggest you really go away and think about what is more important. Your need to have the ashes or the welfare of your horse

so i was saying i always put my horse first???
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But you won't answer the question of what would happen if the hunt could get out faster than the vet. You just sidestep it by saying it could never happen.
 
clydesdale said:
I was told: Really? I don't want to pick holes in your logic but I suggest you really go away and think about what is more important. Your need to have the ashes or the welfare of your horse

so i was saying i always put my horse first???
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Ah, right. Got ya.:)
 
marydoll said:
While i hear what youre saying re trust, do your liveries all know and agree that you veer to the knackerman because hes close ? A vet would be required to see and agree pts, so why not do the job if theyre there ?

All my liveries have it clearly in black and white, yes :) that the quickest option for euthanasia will be arranged
Surely its better to have a contract that details how as well as who and agreed removal for each person ?
Removal of carcass, although inconvenient if delayed, is not a matter of immediate welfare and minutes don't come into it, so to speak, so it can be arranged by owner
As for you feeling if folks dont trust you you dont want them, imo trust is built up over time, not something that comes with the title yo or ym, the amount of threads we see regarding management of yards is testamony to this.
Possibly, but this particular issue is a very fundamental thing for me, if the prospective livery, after seeing the yard, doing their research and talking to me, cannot trust that the welfare of their horse will be paramount - it isn't hte place for them. And I'm not getting on my high horse here, different yards and Yos suit different people, that's all.
So i personally dont see it as black and white, yes you can or no you cant.
My vets whoom i know very well and trust will decide in my absence, regardless of who makes the call, and my friends who would be caring for my horses if i was away and unobtainable would make the neccessary arrangements for uplift and disposal as per my wishes.
I think its different if the owner has not had the foresight to arrange something in their absence, and then a vet would do the neccessary on welfare grounds and disposal would be up to ym if unable to contact the owner.
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:).
 
jesstickle said:
But you won't answer the question of what would happen if the hunt could get out faster than the vet. You just sidestep it by saying it could never happen.
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well why would i ever have the need to call the hunt when the vets have always been able to come out to me within 20mins in a emergancy so i have never had the need to call the hunt
 
Given the choice, I would prefer the hunt to a vet, but in an emergency our vets are likely to be there quicker. My preferred method wouldn't even come into it in an emergency, just whoever could end the suffering first.
 
You are very lucky clydesdale :)
A few weeks ago I rang a large equine practice for an emergency visit to a pony I found on 3 legs. I called at 7 am, their idea of emergency appointment (to for what we knew at the time could have been immediate PTS situation) was that they could come out around 2pm, unless I wanted to put the pony in the trailer and transport it to them - then it could be seen by 12...
Now, if it was a case of PTS on welfare grounds, it would be totally unacceptable, as it was, I managed to organise another vet within 40 minutes and the pony has made a full recovery, but the people I spoke to that morning had no way of knowing that.
 
Toast said:
Interestingly, this thread has given me something to think about.
I keep my horses on a completely DIY yard, owner has horses but is mentally ill and rarely ventures out onto the yard (i look after her horses for her). A lot of you are saying you wouldn't have your horses on a yard where you couldn't rely on the owner if you weren't there and that hadn't actually occurred to me before. I dont know that in a situation like that (of course not swinging leg situation because thats an absolute no brainer) that i could trust anyone on my yard to make that decision for me. Many liveries are the bunny hugging type to try absolutely anything even if it meant additional suffering to the animal before pts. And i would always pts a week too soon than a day too late. Food for thought...
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I am on a similar yard with an 87 year old YO who rarely ventures out of the house and we have no written contracts on our DIY yard. Luckily, my friend and I share the duties of looking after each others horses and between us and another livery in our paddock, our horses get seen nearly 6 times a day. My friend knows where I stand in regards to treatment for my 2 older ponies and when I would draw the line and PTS and wouldn't hesitate to make the call if I were unreachable and I would do the same for her 2 mares. I had an emergency vet out to her filly 2 weeks ago after she had fallen in the stream and cut herself deep on wire trying to climb out and it didn't cross my mind to get her permission.

I have been in the position to find a friend's horse with a smashed leg in the field who had already gone into shock with blood loss. Calling the owner or the YO was not first priority and luckily the vet arrived within 20 mins and PTS instantly. The horse was down, covered over and knackerman on their way before the owner finally made it up. Panicking and disturbing the owner with details in a predictable PTS situation is not a scenario I would ever want to be put in.
 
Nugget La Poneh said:
Understandable - but what if you're on a DIY yard where the YO's are not horsey? I wouldn't be comfortable with them making the call. But having said that, my friend looks out for Nugz when I am away so I know she would deal with it, but the decision is with her, not the yard.
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I really don't see your problem. This clause has been part of every livery contract I have signed, and now that I am a livery owner myself, it is part of the contract that my liveries sign. Anyone who didn't would not be able to come to the yard. It is purely for humane reasons. It doesn't matter that your YOs are not horsey, as it would be the vet who decides if the horse needs immediate euthanasia or not.
 
clydesdale said:
well why would i ever have the need to call the hunt when the vets have always been able to come out to me within 20mins in a emergancy so i have never had the need to call the hunt
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I think people are just saying what if the vet COULDN'T get there quickly. For instance, what if the accident happened while you were out hacking and the vet was too far away, or what if it happened outside normal practice hours and the on-call vet(s) were already tied up elsewhere? Sure, it is probably unlikely, but it doesn't hurt to consider all possibilities. I'd rather the vet than the hunt, but if it came down to it, I would opt for whatever meant less suffering for the horse.

ETA my friend's horse was hit by a car about 5 minutes away from the hunt stables. It was quite obvious that she would have to be destroyed so naturally they went for the hunt, because they were so close. In that sort of situation, would you wait 20 mins for the vet, or 5 mins for the hunt? It might not seem like a lot on paper, but if your horse was in agaony I'm sure you'd feel differently.
 
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