Livery Contract - Vet Euthanasia

Miss L Toe said:
Yes, what I am saying is, as others have pointed out, that the vet is bound by the law and his professional duty, the owner may want the horse to be put down in a nice clover field, but the vet will not move a horse with a broken femur out of its stable. It is the vet who makes the decision in this case, nothing to do with the owner or the YO or anyone else.
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Obviously if the vet says that what the owner wants is unfair to the horse and would cause further suffering, I would go with the vet and explain this to the owner.

I had to make that decision myself in November. My boyfriend's horse broke his leg in the field, and although I hate having horses injected, and would always rather they were shot by my lovely huntsman, waiting for him to come out just wouldn't have been fair, so we had him injected there and then by the vet.
 
clydesdale said:
well why would i ever have the need to call the hunt when the vets have always been able to come out to me within 20mins in a emergancy so i have never had the need to call the hunt
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If the horse was in agony and/or bleeding out and the hunt could get there faster 20 mins would be unacceptable for me. A single minute is an awful long time when pain and fear is involved and in an obvious destruction case, such as a smashed leg, surely speed is an integral part of being humane?
 
Ideally I would also want the vet but if it was clear the horse needed to PTS ASAP I would go with whoever could get to the horse the soonest to put it out of its suffering
 
No vet would pts a horse in the owner's absence unless the horse was in such pain that could not be controlled by meds or was incompatible with life.

Make sure the YO and vet practice have all your current contact details.
 
10 minutes or 2 minutes feels like a lifetime when you are sat with a horse with a broken leg, regardless of how well you have thought things out in the calm safety of your lounge when you are faced with your beloved horse on the floor with it's hind cannon snapped in two, both ends out through the skin like some gory scene from casualty you go into controlled panic and almost act on autopilot. i called the vet, i didn't even think of the hunt, i don't like the way my local hunt operate so for me they are not an option. vet took 20 minutes, the horse was already in deep shock and i was half way there myself as i was on my own with 2 young kids, OH was 20 miles away. I am now registered with 2 vets and would use whichever could be on scene the fastest.
in a situation like that you can not expect a YO to have to faff about contacting 20 different people to get permission to PTS. If you have specific requests then add them onto the contract and go through them with the YO before you sign.
 
If the situation was there and the hunt were on my door step so to speak i guess i would use them to pts my horse but she deffinatly wouldnt go to the dogs
 
Ibblebibble said:
10 minutes or 2 minutes feels like a lifetime when you are sat with a horse with a broken leg, regardless of how well you have thought things out in the calm safety of your lounge when you are faced with your beloved horse on the floor with it's hind cannon snapped in two, both ends out through the skin like some gory scene from casualty you go into controlled panic and almost act on autopilot. i called the vet, i didn't even think of the hunt, i don't like the way my local hunt operate so for me they are not an option. vet took 20 minutes, the horse was already in deep shock and i was half way there myself as i was on my own with 2 young kids, OH was 20 miles away. I am now registered with 2 vets and would use whichever could be on scene the fastest.
in a situation like that you can not expect a YO to have to faff about contacting 20 different people to get permission to PTS. If you have specific requests then add them onto the contract and go through them with the YO before you sign.
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OMG what a terrible experience for you. The same thing happened to my sister's horse. She was staying here for Christmas, and her horse was at livery 200 miles away. She got a call on boxing day to say the horse had been PTS as was found with his hind cannon snapped and literally hanging off. I saw her take the call. I saw her sink to the ground sobbing. At first she was angry that she was not there for him and they hadn't called her before they PTS. But the person who found him only had the vet's number on her. She could not go leaving him in that state. So called the vet first and he was there in 20 minutes.
 
Personally, I really dislike the bullet or bolt and would be extremely annoyed if someone authorised it. Thankfully I have always lived or kept my horse very close to the vets though. I would only use the bullet if there was absolutely no choice.
 
I quite envy those on livery yards whose yo/vet will make the decision to pts in their absence.

I am on my own and so have the full responsibility for any decisions, and it is something I dread. I would also use whoever could get there the quickest in an emergency; standing with a fatally injured horse is something that haunts you.:(
I'd hate to think that those seemingly never ending moments were prolonged through my personal preferences.
 
amymay said:
The hunt will also cremate for you....:o
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Really i was not aware of this thankyou amymay i will look further into this the only reason i said before about not wanting to use the hunt is i couldnt bear the fact of my pride and joy being fed to dog :(

if they cremate aswell then that changes everything altho out of choice i would rather use a company that just soley deals with cremations but you never no what is going to happen and its worth knowing all my options :)
 
clydesdale said:
Really i was not aware of this thankyou amymay i will look further into this the only reason i said before about not wanting to use the hunt is i couldnt bear the fact of my pride and joy being fed to dog
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And even if you don't want the ashes back, you can stipulate that the body is to be cremated, rather than be fed to hounds. Although obviously the costs involved would be significantly higher.
 
Clydesdale - what if the Vet who was closest to you wasn't carrying a gun that day (firearms laws mean they should only carry them when they expect to use them) & your horses injury meant that injection wasn't suitable e.g. a massive bleed/low blood pressure? To avoid any confusion - by unsuitable I mean won't work. Would you wait for the Vet with a gun or get the hunt/slaughterer if they could get there quicker.
 
For those that say they want their horses cremated then that is fine but does not take away from the decision to euthanise in an emergency without contacting the owner.
if I knew the owner wanted their horse cremated then I would leave the body and make other arrangements for it to be collected.

There have been times when a vet and a knackerman have been present - given the choice most vets will have the knackerman shoot the horse.

I agree with hairycob, there are times when injecting is a slow death, personally I would rather the bullet.
Very few vets carry a humane killer - or enough drugs to emergency euthanise, this can mean further delay whilst they collect.

As for not feeding a horse to dogs - or more correctly hounds in most cases, I couldn't give two hoots what happens to them (or me) when they are dead, I care more for a good life and a good clean death.

As an add on, there are many times, in my experience when vets, knowing an animal is insured, will keep things going for way longer than they should.
 
I think that its the 'seeing it in writing' that's the hard part op, I read this and immediately felt my stomach flip at the though of agreeing to someone else making that decision, but then I though that in reality, if my horse was down with a broken leg or something drastic, I would want someone to make the decision for him, I would not want him to suffer for a second longer than is necessary just because I was uncontactable, I couldn't have more faith in my vets If I tried, they are fantastic and they know me and how I would want things handled. Its not a nice thing to contemplate, but yes, I would sign it.
 
amymay said:
And even if you don't want the ashes back, you can stipulate that the body is to be cremated, rather than be fed to hounds. Although obviously the costs involved would be significantly higher.
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Dont i no it we lost my first pony on the sunday before christmas many years ago and the vet was stright out but everyone that would come and collect her to cremate her wanted paying cash that day try finding £800 on a sunday with no bank open was a night mare but we did it
 
hairycob said:
Clydesdale - what if the Vet who was closest to you wasn't carrying a gun that day (firearms laws mean they should only carry them when they expect to use them) & your horses injury meant that injection wasn't suitable e.g. a massive bleed/low blood pressure? To avoid any confusion - by unsuitable I mean won't work. Would you wait for the Vet with a gun or get the hunt/slaughterer if they could get there quicker.
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I appricate your answer and as i said earlier i would if needed use the hunt to put my horse down but wouldnt want her going to the hounds
 
pookie said:
Yep, I have, and without a contract too. In an emergency and with vet's advice my YOs have my permission to arrange euthanasia - it takes a minimum of 35 minutes to get to my yard and that's if I'm immediately contactable. I trust my YOs and their judgement and would prefer my horse didn't suffer unnecessarily.
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This. Its actually something i requested to be put into contracts in the past. Id never forgive myself if i was out having dinner or something and had no signal and my horse suffered an extra few hours in the event of an accident because no one could contact me.
It would only ever come into play if the vet (My chosen vet) said there was no option and the horse was suffering.
 
I was asked to sign a livery contract similar to this when the yard I was on was taken over by people who not only weren't horsey but suffered badly with delusions that Google could answer any question that needed answering! :rolleyes:

I signed but added a clause that only my vets (very large equine practice) could authorise it. I then gave my vets permission in writing to do so without express permission if they thought it was necessary after speaking to them to establish guidelines - ie no colic surgery for one.In emergency I would have accepted ANY vet authorisation tbh but after seeing them decide (without any real attempt to contact the owner as another livery managed to contact her by phone within 15 minutes) call the knackerman, not a vet to PTS an injured horse. Admittedly the horse did need to be PTS but I wanted to avoid the *****storm that would follow if somebody that I thought was clueless did that to one of mine as I would always wonder if they called it right.

On the other hand, the YO where they are now has my full permission to do whatever she thinks is best in any situation - you see, the difference is I trust her!
 
of course, standard contract isnt it? The vet needs owners or representative of owners permission to destroy, you are simply signing that if the vet is called and they want to pts then the YO can say yes on your behalf if they cant contact you.
In addition to this I also had a verbal agreement with my YO that in my absence if a horse of mine was clearly fatally injured that they could shoot themselves (working dairy farm, several people around perfectly capable of dispatching a horse and with the means to do so) before calling myself and the vet (the vet for insurance grounds after death obviously) I couldnt bare to think of one of mine suffering and it can take ages in an emergency to get a vet or the hunt to come out, I've witnessed it myself. My main concern was that in clear case of irreparable damage my animals were not made to suffer a second longer than absolutely neccessary.
 
Vizslak said:
...before calling myself and the vet (the vet for insurance grounds after death obviously) I couldnt bare to think of one of mine suffering and it can take ages in an emergency to get a vet or the hunt to come out, I've witnessed it myself. My main concern was that in clear case of irreparable damage my animals were not made to suffer a second longer than absolutely neccessary.
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Absolutely this. My YOs are under instruction to deal with the horse, including it being destroyed, before worrying about me. In that sort of situation the horse comes first and letting me know what's happening or has happened is secondary.

I'm also not overly keen on driving to the yard after getting The Phonecall...I can't imagine my focus would be entirely on the road, and I guarantee it'd be far more dangerous if I was rushing because I thought the horse was having to wait for me to get there. I'd almost prefer to a safe, blissfully unaware drive to the yard and hear the news once there (not that that's necessarily practical as hours could lapse between the event and my unsuspecting arrival).
 
Wagtail said:
OMG what a terrible experience for you. The same thing happened to my sister's horse. She was staying here for Christmas, and her horse was at livery 200 miles away. She got a call on boxing day to say the horse had been PTS as was found with his hind cannon snapped and literally hanging off. I saw her take the call. I saw her sink to the ground sobbing. At first she was angry that she was not there for him and they hadn't called her before they PTS. But the person who found him only had the vet's number on her. She could not go leaving him in that state. So called the vet first and he was there in 20 minutes.
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it was awful and something i hope i never have to go through again.
This discussion has been useful though, because of it i have realised that my OH, who occasionally checks the horses for me and is down there other times without me, doesn't have the vets number on his mobile:o He does now!!
 
I've been both poacher AND gamekeeper, i.e. had my horse on livery and also run a DIY yard now; and I wouldn't expect any YO to take a horse on their yard without the owner signing it. When my boy was on working livery at equestrian college, all owners signed a contract and included in this was the emergency PTS clause.

Also as a YO I wouldn't ever accept anyone's horse unless they'd signed to this effect.

Its all about firstly being a responsible owner; and YO's being responsible and making sure clients think about this issue and sign accordingly.

Never an easy subject, but has to be thought about and contingency plan prepared "just in case".
 
I have no issue crossing out sections of contracts I don't want to sign. Mostly peple understand. I've even done it with consent forms at the vets before an op as there are some things I won't give 'carte blanche' about. Doesn't mean that the outcome will be different, just reserves my right to /decide at time if I can be contacted/question it.

In an emergency situation where an owner can't be contacted a vet will PTS anyway (I think - e.g. escaped animal injured on road, owner not identified). I'd be happy for the YO to /call/ the vet but the decision to PTS should be with the vet (assuming owner and whatever other emergency contacts are provided can't be contacted).
 
Tickles said:
I'd be happy for the YO to /call/ the vet but the decision to PTS should be with the vet (assuming owner and whatever other emergency contacts are provided can't be contacted).
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What if the hunt could get to the horse quicker than the vet? Should the YO be able to decide?
 
I want my boy to go to the hounds. I bought him from my local hunt, he's been hunting since he was 3 and I think it's a nice end for him. To go back to where he came from.

I had my first horse cremated and wish I hadn't bothered. Once he was dead he was gone. His ashes aren't him. Although I do understand why some people would want their horses ashes back.
 
I think this is an awesome thread. I can't think of many times I've seen a thread, anywhere, that has quite as much potential to reduce suffering.

It's kind of sad in a way that there are so many tales of horror but then a horse is so strong, so fast (and nervy prey animals!) that injuries can be severe, they are also one of the few animals to have to compete on the road with traffic.

It's not been just about YO and who has the say so but having a vets number and thinking/realising there are alternatives shoudl said vet be miles away.
 
McNally said:
This. Its actually something i requested to be put into contracts in the past. Id never forgive myself if i was out having dinner or something and had no signal and my horse suffered an extra few hours in the event of an accident because no one could contact me.
It would only ever come into play if the vet (My chosen vet) said there was no option and the horse was suffering.
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Supposing that your 'chosen' vet was on holiday/had a day off/ was out to dinner?
 
littlelegs said:
I'm on diy with non horsey owners. Vets don't recommend pts unless its the only option (in emergencys anyway) so I have told the vets if its an emergency & yo only person available, & the vet thinks pts is the only option, then yo can authorise it. Don't even have a contract just what I feel I owe the ponies. Wouldn't come to that as its rare I'm not available & yo has a list of my horsey friends who would act in my absence.
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^^^ This.
 
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