Livery...how much is too much??

[Nativelover]

I absolutely insist you pick your farm up and move it to near me!!!!
I come from just north of Teesside, so I know of the average income there. I would say your prices are about right. Most will want DIY with odd jobs here and there, those that want/need part or full will be able to afford it.
I'm now in the NW and total DIY around me is about £40pw with very little turnout!

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

The only other yard around this area that I can think of that does part & full livery I'm pretty sure is £60 per week part & £100 per week full.

Think its difficult to judge on how many people would actually pay for the service though, sadly people want something for nothing nowadays

Wow - this yard ought to rethink their prices one can't run financially on £ 8 per day
sheesh I would close my yard down I would not look after someones horse and supply feed bedding etc for that price


labour
facilities
electrics
wear and tear
lighting
bedding
hay
feed
rent of stable

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Full Livery should be that FULL - not bits and pieces dropped. Full livery should include Stable, Bedding, Feed, Hay, Mucking out, Grooming, Exercising, Tack cleaning, turn out, bring in - 7 days a week. If any of these are dropped then the service is Part Livery.

You need to consider that those that are choosing to have their horse on full livery may have jobs that prevent them getting to their horse for a week or two at a time. They may not be up at the weekend because their job has sent them overseas for 10 days. I had mine on Full Livery for a while when my job got extremely busy with horrendous deadlines and we worked 7 days a week for a month. Every thing was done for me and my horse. Yard also got horse ready for rider when they did get to come and ride.

At the price you are offering I'd jump at the chance - if I were in the UK. I currently pay equivalent of 30pounds a week for pure DIY grazing.

Please remember to be Business minded - too many livery businesses fail because the owners are just too soft when it comes to charging. Advertise yourself as 'The BEST in the Area offering the BEST facilities, the BEST care, the BEST hacking, really sell yourself.

Good luck

^5 like at last someone who knows the meaning of FULL livery FULL means everything = total care
everything done. if riding or tack cleaning not done then it is part livery which is what we do.




Otherwise how are people supposed to understand an advert who want FULL (total) care and see an advert offering full then get told riding is not included. Confuzzled or what.....................

 

[AmyMay]

Bargin!

 

[Hayday2015]

Thank you for everyone's response. The yard is not the main source of income. The prices are cheaper than most around yes and the money made is enough to maintain everything and pay electric and water. I know the main reason it is not attractive is that the school is small and although lit, still not appealing for those competing etc. Perhaps it will be better if I change focus to those retired horses but whose owners are still not able to come up every day. I like the idea of having a flat rate for the facilities and services but then charging accordingly for hay and any bedding as it varies greatly with all horses. I know there are many meanings of full livery and part livery, I have seen yards in our area offer part livery as only am or only pm which could be classed as well as assisted diy. In our area there seems to be a schooling or working livery that would be what some would class as full livery. At least I know now we are not out of price range and the people that have emailed me back saying it is too expensive are probably not worth having as liveries anyway. I would rather wait for the right person to come along that be stuck with someone who doesn't get on with our other liveries. Don't worry, I haven't let anyone come view the yard who I have not spoken with on the phone to find out if it is suitable for them or myself. I don't need to waste their time or my own.

 

[maisie06]

Uh, if you were near me I'd be there like a shot.

Me too - just for the 400 acres of off road riding!!! that is very cheap, I'm in the south and full livery costs around £100 per week, I think what you are offering is a bargain given the cost of DIY around here!!

 

[Tnavas]

Looking back to 1975 when my horse was on full livery it cost me then £35 a week, everything was included. So what is being asked these days is actually cheap, generally my horse was on DIYARBAKIR livery, bedding, feed and hay provided, horse turned out and brought in for me, £25 per week

 

[FinkleyAlex]

Can't believe someone would pay £250 a week for full - I live in London and I wouldn't even expect to pay that here, let alone in Teeside! I think your prices are very reasonable, and agree that they should include grooming and a tack clean once a week but not exercise. I wonder if you'd make more money just offering livery and not DIY, depends on whether the demand is there. Many of the yards in my area only offer 5 or 7 day livery as they won't make a profit otherwise.

 

[honetpot]

I would look at your costs, include everything, maintenance, labour, water electric and nuisance value and then decide if there is enough profit in it. Where you are land is probably cheap but most of the things you buy are as expensive as they are in the south.

 

[sarahann1]

For the services you are offering I'd say your prices are if anything a bit cheap. We have 5 days, part livery, in our case that's ins/outs, rug changes, incs hay and straw and putting feeds in and if required topping up hay and water. No picking out feet or stables. For that it's £55pw and I'm happy to pay it, I often don't use the services, but I'm grateful for them when I do.

 

[mytwofriends]

It sounds ideal and not expensive at all for what's on offer.

I've paid £80pw part livery in the past (no more, I hasten to add), and full at the same yard was £125pw. Extortionate for the facilities and services, nice though they were.

I've also paid £25pw for a scabby, grim yard with very limited turnout in the winter, a tendency for stuff to go "walkies" and very suspect YO and family.

As a poster above said, if you weren't so far away, I'd be one of your liveries today!

 

[william95]

We have a small private yard in the Teesside area. It has always been DIY in the past but we are looking into offering part and full livery. It is becoming increasingly fustrating as many people are saying oh it's too much, so here goes....

Facilities: large airy stables well suited for even the larger horses, outdoor school (smaller than average but still suitable for schooling and popping the odd jump), over 400 acres of off road hacking on the property with another bridle path 1/2 mile from our road, all year turnout (enough space fir individual or group as needed), one individual tack locker for storage for each stable (floor area will easily fit 2 feed bins), 24hr cctv and secured gates at night, rug washing facilities on site.

Prices:
Part Livery including hay, haylage, straw, 5 days a week full care (am and pm feeds, rug changing, muckout, turnout and bring in, pick out feet, and a nighttime check to top up hay, water and pick out stable, outdoor poo picking as required) and 2 days a week am feed and turnout. Therefore owner will provide hard feed and do PM duties on 2 days a week. Prices range from £50/week for under 12.2 to £65/week for over 16.2

Full Livery is full care as above for 7 days a week. Owner to provide hard feed. Prices from £62/week for under 12.2 to £80 for over 16.2

Schooling, lunging, grooming packages can be added at discount and rug washing is provided at a discount as well.

Sorry for the novel but my question is...Is this reasonable? and if not, what is? what would you pay? It is fustrating when people say it's too much when you know youself you are only making pennies from it and could not even hire someone to do the work if needed as there would then be no profit as well.

Thanks for reading!

Where I live, South Wales, these costs are cheaper than putting a dog in a boarding kennels (local ones charge £10 for a small dog and £14 for a big dog per night) and the owners have to provide the dog food for their stay. They have about 30 dogs on a half acre plot. The cost of keeping a horse on part or full livery should definitely not be cheaper than boarding a dog especially considering the fact that livery yards require so much more space. You have to factor in the cost of your time even at the minimum wage rate and I doubt it you would break even with these costs. Yes, the charges you make are somewhat dictated by the area you are in and what competitors charge but it might just be a case that in your area people might like the idea of full livery to fit in with their working lives but due to the employment situation in the area cannot afford a full livery package. Perhaps look at a different target customer base?

 

[Annagain]

Your prices sound very reasonable to me. Full livery in my area is between £75 and £100 a week. I pay £25 a week in summer and £40 in winter (£15 a week for ad-lib haylage for 16.3 IDx while they're in overnight) for DIY and very similar facilities, but without the onsite hacking. By the time you add straw into the equation (say, £4 a week on average?) and using the top price for full livery, you're effectively valuing your work - am and pm 7 days a week - at £40 a week / £5.70 a day. If each horse takes 30 minutes per day on average (20 in the morning, 10 at night, but I suspect it's more) you're paying yourself £11.40 an hour - minus insurance, electricity, water costs etc. I wouldn't work for that!

 

[Mongoose11]

Absolute bargain, but then if you can't fill stables at that price then it clearly isn't a suitable service for your area.

 

[Polos Mum]

Absolute bargain, but then if you can't fill stables at that price then it clearly isn't a suitable service for your area.

I agree with this - but if that is the case I wouldn't cut your prices to fill your stables and work for free!! Better to think more widely about how you can generate income from the facilities you have (rent arena for dog training, make hay, retirement livery etc etc.)
You will only resent liveries if you end up doing all that work for nothing.

 

[KVH]

A bargain!
It just goes to show how prices vary hugely across the country.
For example you could at least double your prices to fit in with prices in my local vicinity.

What are other yards like local to you OP, do the majority offer full/part, or does it seem like for the most part, most potential liveries in the area would prefer/can only afford to be on DIY?

 

[SO1]

The hacking and if you have decent all year turnout will be big draws but I think the sticking point here is the school as I expect your full and part livery customers will want this service because they are working full time and probably need to be to be able to afford this. If this is the case if they want to ride in the winter after work they will need a decent floodlit school. How small is your school?

I presume you have done a costing and this will turn you enough profit to make it viable.

How much you can charge will depend on where you are and what your local competitors can offer. It seems like a very reasonable price but if the local salaries are not enough to be able to afford it then you will end up with no customers.

 

[mossyjo]

Sounds pretty good to me!
Mine is £25 P/W (So £50 for my 2) DIY. Absolutely no facilities, my pony is in a converted bull pen/shed (which is fine for him!) My TB is in the field & as far as I was concerned was going to have a stable in the winter, although that's changed now, so we've had to sort out the livery owners shelter in the field, which has cost us about £750 so far (Husbands a carpenter so managed with labour cost's) I can only use limited amounts of water, as owner is on a water meter, no electricity in the yard, no water in fields so I have to bucket it twice a day!
I wish I lived somewhere other than the Cotswolds, I really need to find another yard but there is nothing close.
On the plus side it's literally a mile up the road from me, which is handy especially in winter.

 

[SO1]

Why are you thinking of taking on part liveries are you struggling to fill the DIY spaces or do you think it will be more profitable.

If you are a private yard I presume you don't have that many liveries or staff to help you. Part and full livery is quite a big responsibility and commitment as if there is just you then you are going to have to make sure you are around to do all the jobs, even if you feel ill, will you have any back up in case you have an emergency or accident and can't get to the yard to do the part liveries?

I am on 7 day part livery and pay nearly double what you are charging but I am in the very expensive SE and we have a lovely big school with full set of SJ and they do a bespoke service - my pony is on soaked hay as he is a good doer and he also has grazing muzzle on too most of the year as plenty of grass and it also includes hard feed and he has to have the very low energy molasses free food so not the standard stuff either and the yard, stables etc are immaculate.

Unless you are getting the hay and straw in very cheaply and are rationing it I can't see how you can make a lot of money doing part livery at this price.

Do you compete? If so how will this fit in with doing the part livery work?

For £11 a day to include rent of stables, grazing, hay and straw, water plus all jobs I can't see it being worth it for the amount of work and commitment involved especially if you only have a couple of part liveries. What is your DIY rate it must be really cheap if you are able to offer part for £11 a day all in.

 

[Theocat]

I've paid £80pw part livery in the past (no more, I hasten to add), and full at the same yard was £125pw. Extortionate for the facilities and services, nice though they were.

Assuming the standard definitions of "part" and "full", those prices couldn't be called extortionate by any measure anywhere in the country. £11.50 per day to cover rent of stable, grazing, feed, bedding, hay, all basic care services, tax, rates, insurance, water and electric, maintenance of yard, fields and any facilities? Even if the care and facilities were at the basic end of basic, the YO is charging a fair price.

 

[Tnavas]

If you break down everything the only difference between one location and another would be the rates. You most likely pay the same price for feed, bedding, wages, I find it hard to understand why some areas think they should be cheaper than others.

The expensive areas may be taking advantage of the fact that people in these areas are on higher incomes. Ultimately your expenses will be very much the same and if you are planning to run the business as a form of living then you need to base the charge to provide at least a 33% profit. Consider that you will be paying tax on the income so do make sure that you aren't running the business as a hobby for those that can pay.

 

[SO1]

In more expensive areas the cost of the land and property is probably double so you end up with a bigger mortgage to cover which needs to be taken into account when setting prices.

If you break down everything the only difference between one location and another would be the rates. You most likely pay the same price for feed, bedding, wages, I find it hard to understand why some areas think they should be cheaper than others.

The expensive areas may be taking advantage of the fact that people in these areas are on higher incomes. Ultimately your expenses will be very much the same and if you are planning to run the business as a form of living then you need to base the charge to provide at least a 33% profit. Consider that you will be paying tax on the income so do make sure that you aren't running the business as a hobby for those that can pay.

 

[EP2504]

If I were near you I'd be biting your hand off with those prices!
I pay £64 per week for DIY livery and full livery on my yard is roughly £160 per week. However, this is all inclusive with an indoor and outdoor school, cross country course, all year round turnout etc etc. Not much hacking though unfortunately as we're in the centre of the city.
I'd say there's nothing wrong with the prices you're asking

 

[Abi90]

If you break down everything the only difference between one location and another would be the rates. You most likely pay the same price for feed, bedding, wages, I find it hard to understand why some areas think they should be cheaper than others.

The expensive areas may be taking advantage of the fact that people in these areas are on higher incomes. Ultimately your expenses will be very much the same and if you are planning to run the business as a form of living then you need to base the charge to provide at least a 33% profit. Consider that you will be paying tax on the income so do make sure that you aren't running the business as a hobby for those that can pay.

Land and property is more expensive in some areas, so will people's mortgages which needs to be accounted for in the cost.

And wages down south are more expensive than up North due to the high cost of living therefore adding to the livery cost.

I'm pretty sure that all livery yards north of Durham can't be running at a loss if they charge less than yards in Surrey for example. Their outgoings must be less or they would all close down!

 

[baran]

^5 like at last someone who knows the meaning of FULL livery FULL means everything = total care
everything done. if riding or tack cleaning not done then it is part livery which is what we do.




Otherwise how are people supposed to understand an advert who want FULL (total) care and see an advert offering full then get told riding is not included. Confuzzled or what.....................

No, that is only YOUR idea of what full livery covers. There is (to my knowledge) no legal definition of the term! I don't know any yard in our area that offers exercise under full livery. You would have to ask for exercise/training livery. And I don't know any yard that offers tack cleaning services. You would have some very confused/annoyed customers if you exercised their horses.

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

I think it's difficult to say what is & isn't expensive as there are so many factors to take into account.

The term 'full livery' means so may different things to different people. Some believe it is doing everything for the horse, grooming, feeding, rugs, boots, turn out, bring in, tack clean, all feed, hay/haylage, bedding, mucking out, exercise, have horse tacked up & ready to ride on clients arrival etc. Others think 'full livery' is feed, muck out, turn out, bring in, rugs & boots but hay, bedding & feed provided by the owner?

Also prices differ vastly from one area to an other, cheaper possibly up north when around London & the home counties prices are much higher due to more expensive land prices etc.

Also prices differ when the YO actually owns the land rather than rents or leases the land. When you don't have a massive mortgage or loan to pay for each month then you can modify your pricing to reflect this. When you can offer that same service but at a cheaper rate & still make the same money as other nearby yards then your yard will probably always be full & probably have a waiting list.

In the end a YO will normally know prices around the area & what is supplied for that price. If their prices are too high they will soon know because people will enquire about a stable but very often not come & that will be the reason.

 

[Tnavas]

No, that is only YOUR idea of what full livery covers. There is (to my knowledge) no legal definition of the term! I don't know any yard in our area that offers exercise under full livery. You would have to ask for exercise/training livery. And I don't know any yard that offers tack cleaning services. You would have some very confused/annoyed customers if you exercised their horses.

I trained in a FULL LIVERY yard and FULL means just that - EVERYTHING is done for your horse, otherwise its just part livery. We had 40 odd full liveries - their owners ranged from wealthy housewives to hard working people who only had the weekend to ride their horses. They were all stabled, we had three each to care for along with the riding school horses and we would do everything for these horses. After morning tea each was quartered and the first lot would be worked, we would ride one and lead another - each group would trot a steady 1hr around the block, on return they would be brushed over, re rugged and fed. Tack then cleaned - everyday. In the afternoon each horse would be strapped for 45mins.

There may be no legal term but I can assure you that FULL Livery means everything
Definition from Wikipedia
Types of livery[edit]

Livery stable ad, 1905
Full livery - The staff undertake all care of the horse and often exercise or even compete the horse on behalf of the owner. This is normally the most expensive option.
Part livery - The horse is normally fed, watered, and the stall or loose box is mucked out (cleaned) on behalf of the owner. It is not trained or exercised.
Do it yourself or DIY livery - A field or paddock and a stable are normally provided. The owner undertakes all care of the horse and provides all hay, feed and bedding. This is usually the least expensive option. Sometimes an amount of hay and/or straw for bedding is included. Everything else needs to be done by the horse owner who will visit the yard one or more times a day to manage their horse.
Grass livery or agistment - A form of DIY livery in which a field or paddock is provided, often with a field shelter, but without stabling. Grass livery is often only usable during drier weather or during the grass growing season, with the horses being stabled elsewhere at other times. This arrangement is similar to the owner renting a field or paddock for their horse, but fees are charged per horse rather than by the size of the field; also different owners' animals may be mixed, and the horse owner is not responsible for maintenance of the fences and other facilities.
Working livery - Working liveries are particularly common at riding schools and it involves the owner paying a discounted livery fee so that the riding school has the right to use the horse in lessons.

 

[Leo Walker]

Wikipedia is not the best place to be getting information to back arguments up from :lol: And it quite clearly says "and often exercise or even compete the horse" So even going by your definition, full livery does not automatically include riding

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

No, that is only YOUR idea of what full livery covers. There is (to my knowledge) no legal definition of the term! I don't know any yard in our area that offers exercise under full livery. You would have to ask for exercise/training livery. And I don't know any yard that offers tack cleaning services. You would have some very confused/annoyed customers if you exercised their horses.

Like Tv I trained in a massive BHS training center where they had every type of livery under the sun. ALL the Full livery horses were top class show jumpers all stallions, every one was on full livery and had EVERYTHING done nothing left off



NO it is not " my idea of what full livery covers " It is what Full livery actually covers back in the 1980's if you were around then. All full livery in all the yards I worked at and trained at had full livery as FULL. Full board in a hotel means Full not full with evening meal removed or such like.

If a yard chooses to remove riding or tack cleaning that is there prerogative, but as mentioned before full means full

The definition of the word full means complete

a full glass
a full membership
a drivers license

Now people seem to think full means something different.



We offer Part livery which is as it has always been and offered in many many yards everything but tack cleaning and riding.

The whole reason in the past of separating the two is owners can choose whether they want complete care everything down or
part care leaving them time to ride and clean their tack etc.


We might as well call assisted diy livery as part livery with owners food and bedding

Full Livery includes: Rubber matted stable, grazing, all facilities, hay/ haylage, bale of bedding per week or straw bed, quality feed. Includes two sessions of schooling/ lunging or hacking (as required), tack cleaning

a random yard from surfing - that is the trouble with the world today they seem to change things to the point of the unbelievable.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

I trained in a FULL LIVERY yard and FULL means just that - EVERYTHING is done for your horse, otherwise its just part livery. We had 40 odd full liveries - their owners ranged from wealthy housewives to hard working people who only had the weekend to ride their horses. They were all stabled, we had three each to care for along with the riding school horses and we would do everything for these horses. After morning tea each was quartered and the first lot would be worked, we would ride one and lead another - each group would trot a steady 1hr around the block, on return they would be brushed over, re rugged and fed. Tack then cleaned - everyday. In the afternoon each horse would be strapped for 45mins.

There may be no legal term but I can assure you that FULL Livery means everything
Definition from Wikipedia
Types of livery[edit]

Livery stable ad, 1905
Full livery - The staff undertake all care of the horse and often exercise or even compete the horse on behalf of the owner. This is normally the most expensive option.
Part livery - The horse is normally fed, watered, and the stall or loose box is mucked out (cleaned) on behalf of the owner. It is not trained or exercised.
Do it yourself or DIY livery - A field or paddock and a stable are normally provided. The owner undertakes all care of the horse and provides all hay, feed and bedding. This is usually the least expensive option. Sometimes an amount of hay and/or straw for bedding is included. Everything else needs to be done by the horse owner who will visit the yard one or more times a day to manage their horse.
Grass livery or agistment - A form of DIY livery in which a field or paddock is provided, often with a field shelter, but without stabling. Grass livery is often only usable during drier weather or during the grass growing season, with the horses being stabled elsewhere at other times. This arrangement is similar to the owner renting a field or paddock for their horse, but fees are charged per horse rather than by the size of the field; also different owners' animals may be mixed, and the horse owner is not responsible for maintenance of the fences and other facilities.
Working livery - Working liveries are particularly common at riding schools and it involves the owner paying a discounted livery fee so that the riding school has the right to use the horse in lessons.

Nice one TV sorry about the pun lol