Livery Opportunity - WWYD?

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SkewbaldShetland

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Hi all - posting under a different name as I think my current YO occasionally stalks HHO and don't really want them to find out just yet in case things go wrong! Anyway...

I have an opportunity to rent a yard including 10 American Barn style stables, a large undercover arena, and modern horsewalker with rubber brick flooring. Turnout is extensive - large fields, not sure how many acres but plenty for 10! There's also a tack room and storage.
The place is an old stud yard and the elderly gent is dispersing his stock, he will continue to live on site and seems to be a very knowledgeable horseman. He's also very nice and reasonably wants to rent the yard for £100 a month per stable (so 1k for me for the whole thing), which he's happy for me to let out individually for a higher price. It's also only a 10 minute drive from where I live and I'm the only one he's invited down to view it (going this sunday).

I would have two of the stables (loaner of my mare will be paying for one) and my youngster will live out but I'd like a spare stable for emergencies. So that's the other 8 stables at roughly 30 p/w just for DIY livery - means I can keep a little bit of money aside for repairs and all liveries would pay a months deposit on arrival and also pay a month in advance in case they're troublesome with paying.

Land owner has stated he doesn't want small children on the yard which is fine by me. Demand in the area is very high, they're are a lot of yards about but even the most rotten ones have a waiting list a mile long, so I think I'd be in demand with the facilities - most places you'd struggle to find a school let alone a covered one. Turnout I prefer herd turnout personally and with the size of the fields this would certainly be do-able but would this be popular with liveries? Most places in my area only offer individual turnout - which I suppose with a lot of fencing I could offer too but would rather the herd option.

Is this a viable option? I'm not out to make money, just break even and am absolutely desperate to find a new place for my two as the yard I'm on currently has no grazing and I find myself constantly being screwed over. I realise that it will take up a lot of my time and I do have money to fall back on - also pain killers for the inevitable headaches! But if you had the chance to do it would you?

All thoughts and opinions welcome - cake for everyone who got through that!
 
I'm with Nato - not a lot of profit available to sublet. Ideal if you have 10 and want to save yourself some cash.

ETA - even with DIYs the majority of running of the yard will fall on you. Don't underestimate how much time this takes - I have mine at home and spend a horrendous amount of time doing building and fencing repairs, land management and the like. What would you do if one of the liveries called you when you were at work and said the fences were down and the horses loose?
 
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Like it or not it will fall as a business.
You will need to really do some sums:
Council Tax/business rates, electricity & water, field maintenance, repairs, insurance, muck removal etc.

I don't think you would be close to breaking even at a £5/week mark up on each stable.

It does sound like a good opportunity though.
 
by the time you've paid insurance and business rates I think you'd be struggling

You may be better to find a couple of friends to share the yard with you (even if that means not having 10 horses between you but still paying the £1K) and paying rent to the YO separately
 
I would say without a doubt it's a viable option but it depends on what your definate intention for the other stables is.
The Other stables need to cover your costs, and maintenance otherwise your paying out for the benefit of others.
That said, if you are near me I'll have a stable!!! PM me the location if you like!!!
 
OP said she wanted to cover her costs and make a bit in hand for contingencies, maintenance etc so it's not about the profit margin. I'd say go for it if it were me. Is £30 p/w the going rate in your area? If so, and the sums add up, then why not. Also, if the owner is on site, is he prepared to keep a "watching brief" on the place, even if not involved in the day to day running ... i.e. report to you if he sees anything untoward happening.

As for turnout, my lad shares with one other but I'd be happy for him to be in a larger group if they all got on OK, but herds aren't everyone's perfect arrangement. With the right people, you could well make this work very well. Only you know how it will affect your life, but i'm guessing you're already fitting in the horse care around work/relationship etc so what would change? Give it a go ...
 
SkewbaldShetland said:
Oh yes sorry forgot to mention - I work full time but shifts are very flexible. And have weekends off.
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I think you’d need to charge £45 per week. I think if you full cost the admin, field maintenance, hassle, contracts, wear and tear and overall maintenance, this is necessary to fully cover your costs. Else you’ll be running at a loss, and doing all the wear, and tear, and repair, and dealing with liveries.

And to be honest if there is GOOD all year turnout, and good hacking and schooling, and an indoor, I think you’d fill the boxes.

£20 more a week for good livery, and good grass and turnout is recoverable versus the bedding and hay cost of lack of access to turnout and good grass.

I’d then think about allowing 1-2 liveries to be able to provide paid services for the others formally, as well as allowing all to swap favours / chores.

And possibly a livery that does repairs / house keeping e.g. loo paper / kitchen / tack room sweep / weeding of yard / harrowing of school etc. for reduced livery.

And I’d employ on a semi regular basis someone to do maintenance – field and fencing and yard bits and pieces (could be livery / husband again for reduced rates.)

DON’T UNDERESTIMATE the amount of effort to run a 10 box DIY yard, or the maintenance to keep all running well. If can build this in, so you are covering this between all 10 boxes, whether through charging for it, or sharing it around formally, then could work well.

DON’T be the yard skivvy for all and sundry, and subsidize others.
 
EQUIDAE said:
I have mine at home and spend a horrendous amount of time doing building and fencing repairs, land management and the like. What would you do if one of the liveries called you when you were at work and said the fences were down and the horses loose?
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The livery I'm at now - all land management and fencing repairs fall to me anyway! I know it takes a lot of time but I'm now an expert at bashing in a post and putting up a rail. And if there was some sort of emergency work would allow me to go no issue - I was late to work a few weeks ago by a few hours as a pony was colicing and i was waiting for owner/vet to arrive. I already seem to be doing a lot of crappy YO stuff and I'm not even getting the benefits!

And ihatework - do you know how much business rates would be/where I could find out? Electricity and water is all included in the rent and he has some sort of insurance already covering the yard so I need to find out what that is and if it's able to be changed.

Do you think I should charge a bit more? £30 a week for those facilities in my area is a low price but I wanted it to be accessible.
Or it's been even playing on my mind to go whole hog and just offer Full/Part to increase the income and make more of a living off it and go part time at work.
 
Greylegs said:
OP said she wanted to cover her costs and make a bit in hand for contingencies, maintenance etc so it's not about the profit margin. I'd say go for it if it were me. Is £30 p/w the going rate in your area? If so, and the sums add up, then why not. Also, if the owner is on site, is he prepared to keep a "watching brief" on the place, even if not involved in the day to day running ... i.e. report to you if he sees anything untoward happening.

As for turnout, my lad shares with one other but I'd be happy for him to be in a larger group if they all got on OK, but herds aren't everyone's perfect arrangement. With the right people, you could well make this work very well. Only you know how it will affect your life, but i'm guessing you're already fitting in the horse care around work/relationship etc so what would change? Give it a go ...
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I think I could definitely trust the owner to let me know if something is wrong/horse injured/uninvited guests come calling.

And I could always split fields up for smaller group turnout - it's just an added expense that I would rather avoid if possible.

(And NativeLover - I'm in Northamptonshire :P )
 
wingedhorse99 said:
I think you’d need to charge £45 per week. I think if you full cost the admin, field maintenance, hassle, contracts, wear and tear and overall maintenance, this is necessary to fully cover your costs. Else you’ll be running at a loss, and doing all the wear, and tear, and repair, and dealing with liveries.

And to be honest if there is GOOD all year turnout, and good hacking and schooling, and an indoor, I think you’d fill the boxes.

£20 more a week for good livery, and good grass and turnout is recoverable versus the bedding and hay cost of lack of access to turnout and good grass.

I’d then think about allowing 1-2 liveries to be able to provide paid services for the others formally, as well as allowing all to swap favours / chores.

And possibly a livery that does repairs / house keeping e.g. loo paper / kitchen / tack room sweep / weeding of yard / harrowing of school etc. for reduced livery.

And I’d employ on a semi regular basis someone to do maintenance – field and fencing and yard bits and pieces (could be livery / husband again for reduced rates.)

DON’T UNDERESTIMATE the amount of effort to run a 10 box DIY yard, or the maintenance to keep all running well. If can build this in, so you are covering this between all 10 boxes, whether through charging for it, or sharing it around formally, then could work well.

DON’T be the yard skivvy for all and sundry, and subsidize others.
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Thank you for the good ideas, to be honest £45 p/w would not be all that shocking for the area I'm in. Turnout would be 24/7 in the summer and in at night during the winter but would probably be out for as long as possible both hours-wise and the months that they have to be stabled for. Turnout really is very extensive. Hacking is also very good - lovely village and the pub allows horses in the garden!

I also know a handyman who would be able to do the odd job for me at a discounted rate (family friend). I think I would allow liveries to help each other out but then would that stop me potentially offering my own services on the weekends? I could easily turn out/bring in/change rugs/feed on a weekend for people who might want a lie in/night off for example. But it would be tight for me to do in the week.
 
Just called SEIB to get a quote for insurance, I wasn't sure on what the rebuilding costs/age of the buildings would be so had to leave that out but for Public Liability (3m) and CCC it was only £37 p/m. The landowner may also potentially already cover Commerical Property so I'll discuss with him but I wouldn't mind adding it to my policy either way.

I also know the tax man would want a cut but looking at the figures I could afford him to take a chunk and it not worry me too much.

Financially I'm looking at...
8 stables charged at £40 p/w = £160 for a 4 week month (may not charge extra for a 5 week month as £200 seems extortionate for DIY livery.)
So that's £1,280 per month if all 8 boxes are filled. And that's without me paying for my own horses. Could charge my loaner a little bit to add onto the total or get a young grass livery to keep my youngster company for a small fee.

And then it would depend on the business rates, does anyone know how much I could expect these to be?

Putting aside the £37 for insurance and possibly £80/100 for any repairs that month. I would hopefully end up making a bit of a "repairs fund" for this in case anything substantial needed fixing. Does this seem reasonable?
 
I'm Northampton and I pay £49.50 for 5 day assisted/2 day full. No indoor but decent outdoor and miles and miles of off road hacking. I'd be careful thinking demand is high and yards have waiting lists. I didnt find that when I was looking a couple of months ago. I also saw a fair few round the £25 DIY mark. I'd do my research very, very carefully before committing to anything long term
 
FrankieCob said:
I'm Northampton and I pay £49.50 for 5 day assisted/2 day full. No indoor but decent outdoor and miles and miles of off road hacking. I'd be careful thinking demand is high and yards have waiting lists. I didnt find that when I was looking a couple of months ago. I also saw a fair few round the £25 DIY mark. I'd do my research very, very carefully before committing to anything long term
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I think it depends where you are in the county itself as at the moment looking at new yards I'm on 5 waiting lists and nothing dips below £30 p/w for basic diy with stable, turnout and a shoddy outdoor school. I've looked for the good part of a year and still haven't found anything better.
Though I agree that I don't want to just dive in without knowing I'll be able to fill the stables so would be putting feelers out first before committing. I'm debating whether to include assisted livery on the weekends as I could easily do that and how great would that be not to have to wake up early and turn your horse out on a saturday morning?
 
So you could earn £195 after you have paid your own bills?

Your insurance seems very inexpensive - please double check it. When I checked insurance for just hiring out my arena it was well over £100 a month.

You can calculate your business rates here https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-business-rates

Having my own land I'd like to mention hidden costs - you'll need your fields topped and rolled come spring. The rough cost is £10-15 per acre. Then another £10-15 an acre for spraying for weeds (it will likelyneed doing or you will end up with horse sour pasture) and then the weedkiller on top of that. If you are poo picking rather than harrowing you will also need to fertilise (another £10-15 an acre plus fertiliser cost). So a once a year cost of at least £50 per acre. You could forgoe this but your land will end up terrible with 24/7 turnout and with terrible grazing you will struggle to keep people.

My place has cost me £500 to do all of that plus another £500 to take hay off the hay fields.

Another thing to factor in is that the top end prices for DIY tend to be for places that include optional extras. Someone choosing just DIY is likely to be swayed by a lower cost.

If you can make it work financially then brilliant but I am struggling to see how you can :(

FWIW I only pay £1200 a month and that includes a 4 bed house - try and negotiate on price ;)

ETA - offering assisted livery is a good idea but most people want it in the week, not weekend.
 
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Don't forget to factor in liability insurance, that's my tip! I'm assuming rates, maintenance etc are all included in what he is charging ( which is very cheap if he is!). If not there are many things to take into consideration cost wise, and you could, or rather would find yourself running at a loss. Just make sure you go into it with your eyes wide open, it's not the dream some people seem to think it is! Sorry to pee on your parade, but I run a DIY yard, and believe me, not only is there no money it, or at least very little, but it's hard work trying to please everyone. Good luck with it if you do decide to go ahead.
 
EQUIDAE said:
So you could earn £195 after you have paid your own bills?

Your insurance seems very inexpensive - please double check it. When I checked insurance for just hiring out my arena it was well over £100 a month.

You can calculate your business rates here https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-business-rates

Having my own land I'd like to mention hidden costs - you'll need your fields topped and rolled come spring. The rough cost is £10-15 per acre. Then another £10-15 an acre for spraying for weeds (it will likelyneed doing or you will end up with horse sour pasture) and then the weedkiller on top of that. If you are poo picking rather than harrowing you will also need to fertilise (another £10-15 an acre plus fertiliser cost). So a once a year cost of at least £50 per acre. You could forgoe this but your land will end up terrible with 24/7 turnout and with terrible grazing you will struggle to keep people.

My place has cost me £500 to do all of that plus another £500 to take hay off the hay fields.

Another thing to factor in is that the top end prices for DIY tend to be for places that include optional extras. Someone choosing just DIY is likely to be swayed by a lower cost.

If you can make it work financially then brilliant but I am struggling to see how you can :(

FWIW I only pay £1200 a month and that includes a 4 bed house - try and negotiate on price ;)

ETA - offering assisted livery is a good idea but most people want it in the week, not weekend.
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Thank you for this info!

I might not be able to negotiate on price with him but maybe the field maintenance costs? And would this have to be done every year if fields were well rested and given plenty of time to recover? He seems to have a lot of acerage.

And about the assisted I know :| I could do assisted some days of the week but on a Tuesday and Thursday the evenings would be a no-go as they're my later shifts at work (finish at 6) but then I could still do the mornings...
Would it work if I offered morning turnouts/rug change/feeding as the assisted part of the DIY and then the evenings are down to them. Mornings seem to be where most people struggle?
 
Even with plenty of acreage you will still need to top - there will be areas that they prefer and the rest ends up long (and pooed on). By topping you keep all the grass usable or you will have areas that end up like moorland grass. Also if they only graze in the best bits those bit will end up poached and grazing reduced.

I find it is worthwhile rolling as the land will end up poached to a degree over winter (I had 3 on 11 acres and it still needed doing). I was worried one of mine would snap a leg in the divots.

If you have lots of acreage you could do what I did and take a cut. I keep 11 acres for winter grazing for my 3 and then take them off in the March/April. This then gives enough time to rest to get one cut of hay. The first year I was here the farmer did it for half the cut and it cost me nothing (I got 48 large bales off 11 acres). They are hard work to move without machinery so this year I got small wrapped haulage and paid (they won't do small bales for half the cut). My plan is to sell the surplus as I only need half of what I cut. either way works out that haylage for the the year for 3 horses costs me nothing.
 
SkewbaldShetland said:
I think it depends where you are in the county itself as at the moment looking at new yards I'm on 5 waiting lists and nothing dips below £30 p/w for basic diy with stable, turnout and a shoddy outdoor school. I've looked for the good part of a year and still haven't found anything better.
Though I agree that I don't want to just dive in without knowing I'll be able to fill the stables so would be putting feelers out first before committing. I'm debating whether to include assisted livery on the weekends as I could easily do that and how great would that be not to have to wake up early and turn your horse out on a saturday morning?
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I'm NN4, about a mile out of the town, and I looked at anything within about 8 miles of my house, if that helps? :)
 
EQUIDAE said:
Even with plenty of acreage you will still need to top - there will be areas that they prefer and the rest ends up long (and pooed on). By topping you keep all the grass usable or you will have areas that end up like moorland grass. Also if they only graze in the best bits those bit will end up poached and grazing reduced.

I find it is worthwhile rolling as the land will end up poached to a degree over winter (I had 3 on 11 acres and it still needed doing). I was worried one of mine would snap a leg in the divots.

If you have lots of acreage you could do what I did and take a cut. I keep 11 acres for winter grazing for my 3 and then take them off in the March/April. This then gives enough time to rest to get one cut of hay. The first year I was here the farmer did it for half the cut and it cost me nothing (I got 48 large bales off 11 acres). They are hard work to move without machinery so this year I got small wrapped haulage and paid (they won't do small bales for half the cut). My plan is to sell the surplus as I only need half of what I cut. either way works out that haylage for the the year for 3 horses costs me nothing.
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This is really helpful thank you. I can't say I know an awful lot about grass management as you can probably tell - there's nothing like this at my current place!

I will definitely see what his current field management is like and see if he's willing to pay or put towards it. I'll also see if there's scope to cut hay from one of the fields as I know a bunch of farmers who would happily do this for me. And if that's possible and I can get enough I might be able to include it in the livery?
 
FrankieCob said:
I'm NN4, about a mile out of the town, and I looked at anything within about 8 miles of my house, if that helps? :)
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Thanks that does help! You're the other side of the town from me and the villages where I am are expensive :/

Do you think offering assistance in the morning would be more inviting? And then with possible assisted/part livery on the weekends at an extra cost?

What would you expect to pay for assisted (am) diy with American barn stabling, covered arena, horse walker and good turnout?
 
One of my friends runs a DIY yard and assistance is what most people want .
The business rates will be the killer and make sure you have thought through the electricity bills etc .
I think it would be worth it to have a nice place to keep your own horses even if it only washes it's face .
Could you get a free lance on board to give Week day assistance which is what most people who work need .
 
I have a 12 box yard that I rent for a very good price and have part liveries and I still just break even so have to teach to make the difference up.
It's also a full time job running it to any standard and I have two full time staff as well.
Cost wise you have business rates, CCC and third party insurance,I also have employers insurance whcih you would need even if you just had a helper in.
General wear and tear, horses break everything!!
Rent
Hay
Bedding
Water
Electric
Muck removal
Field management
The list is endless!

Jobs wise, to keep it nice we sweep the yard in the morning and the end if the day
The muck heap has to be forked up
Poo picking has to be done
Haynets filled
Being around for hay delivery ect
Making sure some one has locked up properly!
Keeping the surrounding areas clean and tidy, grass verges ect
Ensuring all tools are away
Keeping the feed and hay area c!lean to prevent vermin
Vermin control!
Ordering the hay and bedding
Sorting muck removal
Fence checking
Water checking
Maintaining the arena surface
Even down to gritting in the winter and unblocking drains!
Etc ect!

It's a bloody hard slog. I love my yard and my liveries and have to remind myself it all worth the work, but it is a lot of work for litttle financial reward
 
Definitely don't underestimate the time and effort to run and maintain the yard and fields.

I have an indoor school at home but do not take liveries. From memory I think the rates on it would bave been £1100 pa 14 years ago.

Don' forget that it is very likely that you will not fill all your boxes from the moment you take over the yard so you will need to be able to cover that cost.

Will your landlord provide maintenance equipment eg. Quad and harrow for the school, etc.
 
Ooo one I forgot - raking the flaming arena of tracks! I allowed neighbours to use my arena until I started having to spend a good 2 hours raking by hand every weekend. I'd buy an arena harrow but they don't come cheap and I would then have the running costs and storage of a quad too.
 
Check the business rates on both the school and barn before you take it on, a local RS was paying about £35k per year on a very large barn used for stabling it crippled the business and she closed down, also the lights in the school will be expensive to run people will use them as soon as the light starts to fade it may be worth getting a meter fitted so you can at least cover that cost.
 
be positive said:
also the lights in the school will be expensive to run people will use them as soon as the light starts to fade it may be worth getting a meter fitted so you can at least cover that cost.
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Another one I forgot - mine costs about £3 an hour to run! I'm guessing you can get cheaper setups but that's another cost. And when the bulbs go they are expensive and you need to hire a cherry picker to change them - I only have one side of my school lit at the mo - if one more bulb goes I will have to change them...
 
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