Livery with no grazing.

[Pocket.Rocket]

Many moons ago I was in the RMP, the Mounted Troop kept the horses in 24/7. They were exercised daily, weather it be ridden or horse walker. Those horses were in superb condition, not choppsy at being stabled for so long and quite happy in their own skin. I wouldn't want it for mine, who love their turnout, especially in summer, but the Military horses were very settled. I will be prepared to be shot down in flames ( in a nice way please) but I don't think the MOD mounts in London etc get free turnout but are very well cared for. So if you can find people who can, more importantly will, exercise daily you may have a market. Obviously there will have to be ménage/ hacking / school, so no, horses can and do have a happy life without free turnout.

The civil service horses are all sent away for long summer holidays every year too

In the winter they are in all 24/7 but they are very well exercised as they have their daily duties and then are also often used for the civil service riding club lessons too. Or at least that was the case when I was there a few years ago.

 

[Carrots&Mints]

Nope! Im out

 

[Auslander]

I don't think people on here are "obsessed" by turnout!

It's natural and healthy and in my view a necessity for a horse. Even a competition horse is still a horse. It wants to play, roll and run around the field. I wouldn't keep my dog in his crate all day and only let him out to exercise him.

Too right!
When I worked for WFP - all his horses were turned out every day - mostly in small groups. His top horse at the time (Steadfast) had the run of the entire place - we regularly had to head off across the estate to find him. They had a couple of small individual turnout paddocks for owners horses, but the majority had access to decent sized fields, and mates to play with. They were a very happy relaxed bunch of horses.

 

[Spring Feather]

If you were to split the 8 acres into half acre paddocks then you could turn out 2 horses into each paddock daily, or 1 acres paddocks with 4 horses. You would have to hay them as there wouldn't be any grazing but that's no big deal. It would then allow all horses to be turned out all day and every day (providing the ground structure is up to it). Then you wouldn't have to be messing around with turning out/bringing in multiple times every day.

 

[rara007]

My pony came to us having not been turned out on grass for 3 years, as the yard he was on in Holland didn't have grass- quite common I think. He was perfectly happy, calm, free moving etc. This summer he lived out 24/7 and went quite flat, but since november he has been in with access to a small yard. He's much more relaxed than he was on the routine before of out 7am-12 or 4.30pm on mud in a herd .So, for him, only limited turnout wouldn't concern me tbh, I'd be more interested in a decent school and hacking.

 

[Annagain]

If you were to split the 8 acres into half acre paddocks then you could turn out 2 horses into each paddock daily, or 1 acres paddocks with 4 horses. You would have to hay them as there wouldn't be any grazing but that's no big deal. It would then allow all horses to be turned out all day and every day (providing the ground structure is up to it). Then you wouldn't have to be messing around with turning out/bringing in multiple times every day.

If OP wants 15 horses on site she could have 2 in 1 acre paddocks and there'd still be enough paddocks - unless you meant to rest half the land and use half of it? I'm not sure I'd like 4 in such a small space for safety - there's not much room for them to keep out of each other's way in 1 acre.

 

[Spring Feather]

If OP wants 15 horses on site she could have 2 in 1 acre paddocks and there'd still be enough paddocks - unless you meant to rest half the land and use half of it? I'm not sure I'd like 4 in such a small space for safety - there's not much room for them to keep out of each other's way in 1 acre.

Yes sorry; a moment of mind-numb. What she said ^^ lol!

 

[Firefly9410]

As people have rightly stated you need at least an acre of grazing per horse, If I were t fill my stables with 15 horses then the grazing is no where near enough with eight acres for 15 horses. That is why I put no grazing and limited turn out...unless you think that 8 acres is enough for 15 horses

The majority of yards I have been on the grazing has almost no feed value being that it was over grazed. 8 acre field would have about 20 horses on it and all would be stabled nights, turnout typically 10am to 7pm and not on rainy days in winter. It worked well for riding club type riders with mostly cobs and natives or their crosses, nothing got fat or laminitis or muzzled but there was lots of bickering and scuffle marks on horses from boredom.

ETA you are being too negative OP, these places did not advertise as livery with no grazing they advertised as turnout all year.

 

[honetpot]

If every yard, riding school or equestrian college followed the rule on horse one acre, riding would really become only for the rich. We would all like unlimited well managed land but the actual fact is land is very expensive and a lot of us are on clay. The price of good Grade 1 land is rising, its an investment and if farmed does not attract capital gains tax, and any where that is close to a town the land will be at a premium and probably start at £20000 per acre. I have about one and half acres for each of my animal but since the end of November I have effectively had 10 animals on less than two acres. Does this appear to be a problem for them? No. They are housed in barns in social age approiate groups will a constant supply of roughage, my only problem is stopping them from getting too fat. I have a young colt who gets bullied by the others so he goes out for a slop in mud with a playmate every other day.
I have seen enough livery yards to know there is a wide spectrum of ways of keeping horses, I do not like mine in 24/7 but sometimes ground conditions and weather make this not possible. I have also kept my horse in a garage( in a suburb of a city) for four months of the year, worked regularly, he definitely had no turnout but if he had been on a livery yard because of poor soils he would not have been turned out there either. None of the animals I have owned have ever had stable vices, company, fodder, exercise and routine seems to be the main factor in keeping an animals sane.

 

[ester]

8 acres was more than I thought too, we should have ascertained that earlier I might not fill all boxes but perhaps increase livery price by having one as a wash box, one as a solarium etc?

 

[miss_c]

As far as I'm concerned a livery without grazing is as much use as a car with no wheels!

This!

 

[siennamum]

Without reading all the replies I may have missed some cruicial information - but life is too short haha.
My brother has 60odd horses on a yard in a city centre location & they have a tiny paddock so they can each have a roll & kick around, arenas, indoor stabling and a school. Horses are perfectly happy.

I think you would need serious competition riders who would potentially want supported livery, a horse walker & good surfaces, lorry parking, washroom, somewhere to get changed etc. My bro, has a woodchip track around his property, only a few hundred yards but enough for a canter or just an amble to cool off after work.

 

[MillionDollar]

I would only consider it if there was a horse walker and an all-weather turnout paddock that my horse could definitely go in for at least a few hours everyday. If you are seriously considering this then IMO you need to build at least 5 all-weather turnout pens, that means each horse can go out for 3 hours each, and a horse walker.

 

[MileAMinute]

The HHO community aren't 'obsessed' with turnout and grazing. It is a minimum requirement for the majority of horses out there. The OP wanted opinions on who would think her idea was viable, and the majority disagreed as it wouldn't suit their horse's needs.
I appreciate those with health/weight concerns would think differently and it's a good factor to include.

 

[MoonRiver]

Think if it could be set out as above, being split into 1 acre paddocks with 2 horses per paddock it is feasible. Horses let out during the day and back into stables overnight. Would need to keep an eye on ground conditions when very wet and in winter, but the menage could then be used instead.
I have worked on a yard set up like this, horses were perfectly happy even with just a few hours out

 

[MillionDollar]

Just seen you'll have 8 acres. Therefore, I would split into half acre paddocks, and turn horses out for about 6 hours per day. Just don't do 24/7 turnout. I would still build a horse walker and an all-weather pen and then when it's too wet (Nov-March) do not have any turnout.

I have a yard with 60 horses on it, we have 80 acres of grazing. They're out 24/7 in summer and then limited in winter (probably go out once per week). But we have 2 horse walkers and 6 turnout pens. All the horses are very happy, and we actually don't have a horse here that has a vice.

 

[SO1]

8 acres is more than I thought as well.

I think it also depends on what the ground is like and how prone to flooding or muddiness your area gets.

It would not be enough if you needed enough grass to sustain 15 big competition horses but if it was mainly small good doer native and cobs you might be ok, if they were in at night all year round. There are people who would prefer turnout that did not have loads of grass as it aids weight management.

If often seems like a lot of people struggle to keep their horses weigh under control in the summer as there is too much grass yet on the same yard in the winter they have not enough or have to restrict the turnout so I do wonder if there might be a better way of managing grazing so horses don't get overweight in the spring/summer and can still get turnout in the winter!

I have to say I would not want to be on a yard with no turnout in the winter.

 

[windand rain]

Check out the welfare laws too it may well be illegal to have horses permanently in stables
Never would used one without 24/7 turnout and daily turnout for at least 8 hours every day if stables were a must

 

[Spoiled cob]

Check out the welfare laws too it may well be illegal to have horses permanently in stables
Never would used one without 24/7 turnout and daily turnout for at least 8 hours every day if stables were a must

It's not illegal to keep horses in stables.

In certain European countries horses are rarely turned out and competition horses are kept stabled with daily exercise. Many competition riders don't turn out in the winter in the UK.

Personally I'm fed up with seeing horses out 24/7 with little grass looking completely miserable, stood in mud for months on end. I think some people tell themselves that is best for the horse etc but in reality its cheaper and easier/less time consuming than bringing in.

 

[windand rain]

the law
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/69389/pb13334-cop-horse-091204.pdf

think you would find the letter of the law is that your horse has to have the ability to act like a horse which in my mind does not happen when you stable 24/7
It is far from cheaper easier and less time consuming
mine are fed daily poo picked daily and I can assure you that it takes far longer to poo pick a large field than it does to muck out a few stables they are fed hay and feed at the same rate as stabled horses they are warmer as most stables are very cold I have mucked out stables where the field has been frosty but the poo soft but in the stable the poo is frozen to the floor and the horse cannot move around to keep warm.
I appreciate that there are people who want their horses in but it is mindless cruelty to keep them in 24/7 bored out of their minds and resigned to it so shut down Sorry but an hour or two in a walker or school doesn't cut it with the welfare rules or with the morality of keeping horses You would be sent to jail if you kept a child in the toilet never letting it out and no matter how much food and water you gave it or how much time you spent with it only let it out for and hour or two

 

[Spoiled cob]

the law
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/69389/pb13334-cop-horse-091204.pdf

think you would find the letter of the law is that your horse has to have the ability to act like a horse which in my mind does not happen when you stable 24/7

I was only stating my opinion and fact.

I have never heard of anyone keeping horses properly ie not neglected being prosecuted for stabling. There would never be any horses on box rest if that was the case and like I said a large number of professional riders don't turnout in the winter and in Europe it's normal for no turnout. Also things depend on the horses and how much work the owner is happy to put in some people aren't interested in or don't have time to be mucking out/skipping out throughout the day some horses aren't happy to be out in this rubbish weather.

It seems like things on here are fine if you believe certain things and act certain ways but it quickly becomes a witch hunt for those who may do things differently and voice a different opinion. Whether the op has 5 horses or 15 it will be a business and as such people will have to move their horses there and pay livery so will only do it if it suits them. I doubt it was intended to create a 'you must do things this way or else' thread.

 

[be positive]

While I dont agree with stabling 24/7 many horses are, racehorses, police horses come to mind and presumably they are aware of any laws, reading the link I am pasting the part that is relevant, which shows there is nothing illegal about stabling 24/7, I have no idea how it would be policed if it ever was there are far worse things happening to animals that nothing is done about.

Horses and ponies require adequate exercise,
or freedom to exercise and this will require
time and effort from the horse owner or
keeper. Most stabled horses will benefit
from daily turnout in the field to allow
them to graze and socialise with other
horses. This may have the added benefit of
alleviating the risk of stable vices. If turnout
is not feasible, stabled horses should receive
appropriate exercise daily, unless contrary to
veterinary advice.

 

[windand rain]

the fact is that there are certain things that are essentially common sense which is neither common not much sense being applied to horses so just because it is or is not done does not mean it should be or shouldn't be. Ideally horses are best served by what is possible and the choices are there for that reason there will be people who strongly think it is ok although by this thread it would only be a few but it would appear that the consensus is that most would not use a livery without at least some turnout or some sort. I would never send a horse of mine to a yard that did not allow turnout regardless of how good its reputation purely because I believe a horse needs to be out for its physical and mental well being others will think differently. There is also the definition of appropriate exercise that is open to interpretation and no I am fully aware that the laws are not policed and likely never will be which is why we get the horror stories of abuse and neglect that we do
OP could you not base your livery yard on a maximum of 8 horses and acre for each should mean year round turnout you could of course have a few more in summer when the fields would be better so holidays is probably a good idea

 

[Copperpot]

It's not illegal to keep horses in stables.

In certain European countries horses are rarely turned out and competition horses are kept stabled with daily exercise. Many competition riders don't turn out in the winter in the UK.

Personally I'm fed up with seeing horses out 24/7 with little grass looking completely miserable, stood in mud for months on end. I think some people tell themselves that is best for the horse etc but in reality its cheaper and easier/less time consuming than bringing in.

Believe me pushing a wheel barrow around 10 acres every day to poo pick isn't easier than mucking out a stable or 2.

Nor is filling up 3 water tanks in a field easier than filling a bucket in a stable.

It probably would be cheaper but then because it was, I just got more horses.

Having kept my horse on a yard where turnout in winter was non existent, I couldn't do it to him again. Yes he got ridden and went on the walker. What fun. Thats work to him. Not down time. I'm sure it works for some, or they tell themselves their horses are happy stuck in a stable 24/7. I actually find it very sad that the horse never gets to be "just a horse".

All this "competition" horse stuff. Do those horses not have the same basic needs as bog standard horses then? They aren't herd animals? Don't like to roll in the mud? And are somewhat agrophobic?

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

What happens if you can't keep your horse contained in a field? I can't just build jurrasic park fencing overnight! Currently he will last about 10/20 min grazing the edge of the school before jumping in

 

[Tinypony]

Well Op, as others have said, I'd have a more suitable amount of liveries, say 8, in line with the land you have available.
If I had a horse that constantly jumped out of a field I'd first be wondering why and could I change that, but I would put up higher fencing so that he couldn't. I wouldn't do it overnight, but I'd do it...
I do wonder how easy it is to mistake a shut-down horse for a "happy/chilled/contented" one sometimes. This applies in the field or stable. If a horse constantly stands head down and dozing indoors or outdoors it isn't normal, could be a coping strategy. I'm just saying that sometimes it's worth looking at what's in front of us from a different angle. Or they could be too hot or course...

 

[SpringArising]

I have never heard of anyone keeping horses properly ie not neglected being prosecuted for stabling. There would never be any horses on box rest if that was the case and like I said a large number of professional riders don't turnout in the winter and in Europe it's normal for no turnout. Also things depend on the horses and how much work the owner is happy to put in some people aren't interested in or don't have time to be mucking out/skipping out throughout the day some horses aren't happy to be out in this rubbish weather.

1) Having to keep a horse on box-rest is completely different to confinement by choice.

2) Just because someone else does it that doesn't make it right.

3) Where in Europe? I have been on livery in France and every yard I went to (one trekking centre & riding school, one livery yard and one competition and sales livery
yard) the horses were turned out on a daily basis (if not 24/7).

4) If you don't have time to muck out once a day and choose to keep your horse in, bored out of its mind, for convenience, then you shouldn't own a horse.

 

[Amicus]

This sounds like an excellent idea.

Actually, yes under certain circumstances, for example if I had a lami prone horse, and there are plenty people who do. Grazing is not always what it's cracked up to be. I would think there is a market for a yard specialising in horses that need to be kept primarily off grass. You could turn the paddock into a track system with varied surfaces (sand, gravel, concrete, embankments and the occasional grassy patch. You could put forage stations at various points to keep the horses moving. So before writing it off I would do a bit of market research in the area - perhaps put up a poll here in one of the regional forums.

 

[Bright_Spark]

I think it would work for some horses, on the turnout related posts on here, so many people say their horses are only happy out for a couple of hours.

Provided you can managed a good rota so all have a set time (daily, ideally) and there is plenty of other opportunities for exercise - school, lots of hacking, lunge pen, walker, then I think it would work. Wagtails idea of a track would make turnout more interesting for the horses too, rather than just standing about.

Regards the extra field along the road - near me a livery yard has to walk their horses along a road to get between stable and field. Although it is a country road, it gets quite busy at times, but they seem to manage ok.

 

[Spoiled cob]

1) Having to keep a horse on box-rest is completely different to confinement by choice.

2) Just because someone else does it that doesn't make it right.

3) Where in Europe? I have been on livery in France and every yard I went to (one trekking centre & riding school, one livery yard and one competition and sales livery
yard) the horses were turned out on a daily basis (if not 24/7).

4) If you don't have time to muck out once a day and choose to keep your horse in, bored out of its mind, for convenience, then you shouldn't own a horse.

My comments were in response to the post about it being against the law to keep a horse in a stable. I pointed out that if this was the case then you wouldn't be able to have a horse on box rest etc

Everyone has the right to keep their horse how they want to and I'm sure everyone does what they think is right for their horse. If the horse is healthy and happy be it out 24/7 in 24/7 or turned all day or for a few hours then that is your own business. You don't need to answer to a forum, where people sit behind a computer and judge others without having the facts.

My horse came from Holland, he rarely went out. They had a lot of horses and it flooded in winter so there was no winter turnout, it is common there. Someone I knew on a yard years ago bought a horse from Germany, he didn't know what grass was. I have read lots of articles from professional riders that stable over winter.

I never said it was ok to keep a horse in and not clean it out properly!!! I seriously hope that your weren't insulting me with that point. If you read my post properly you would see that I meant that not everyone can muck out multiple times a day etc if they go to work so it is usually easier to at least turnout in the day so that suits both horse and owner.

I also pointed out that this thread was about running a business without having turnout and as I said it would only work if people were happy with that as they would have to move their horses there and pay for the livery, no one would be forcing them to do it.

I knew I shouldn't have bothered responding to this thread. As long as horses aren't being neglected then what everyone does it their business, even if they want to move to the op's yard. no need to be so nasty.