Livery without a school

I've seen many yards with schools I wouldn't be prepared to work a horse in, I don;t se why you should charge less than them. At my current yard plenty of liveries don't use the school so people like that also wouldn't expect a lower rate bcause you don't hav a facility they don'twant anyway.
 
Nari said:
I've seen many yards with schools I wouldn't be prepared to work a horse in, I don;t se why you should charge less than them. At my current yard plenty of liveries don't use the school so people like that also wouldn't expect a lower rate bcause you don't hav a facility they don'twant anyway.
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Okay, thanks for that. As I say, all the other facilities are very nice.
 
Are there local arenas available to hire? If so, as a livery, I’d work on the basis of what livery would cost me at your yard plus hiring a local arena a couple of days a week, versus what livery at a yard with an arena would cost. If I broke even I’d consider it. Do you have anywhere to put a canter track in? Or is any of your hacking off road? Not being able to school wouldn’t be a huge issue for me as I box out to lessons and clinics regularly anyway, but only being able to do roadwork would personally be a big downside as I’d struggle to keep my horse fit.

Of course I’m likely not your clientele and happy hackers would potentially be delighted with your set up, just thinking how you could appeal to a broader audience.
 
KikiDee said:
Are there local arenas available to hire? If so, as a livery, I’d work on the basis of what livery would cost me at your yard plus hiring a local arena a couple of days a week, versus what livery at a yard with an arena would cost. If I broke even I’d consider it. Do you have anywhere to put a canter track in? Or is any of your hacking off road? Not being able to school wouldn’t be a huge issue for me as I box out to lessons and clinics regularly anyway, but only being able to do roadwork would personally be a big downside as I’d struggle to keep my horse fit.

Of course I’m likely not your clientele and happy hackers would potentially be delighted with your set up, just thinking how you could appeal to a broader audience.
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Thank you.
Yes, local arenas to hire and the hacking is good (a mix of country roads and bridleways). The ground is quite sloping which makes a grass arena/canter track/school more difficult/expensive to install. 20 minute ride to a local estate that sells yearly passes (canter tracks and some xc fences), 20 min box journey to a local forest with riding tracks. There's lots to like, but it will obviously best suit people that like their hacking and outings and can exercise their horses within daylight hours.
 
MadWorld said:
That's a good figure to work with, thanks. If, for example, a nearby yard charges £180 pcm, would a charge of £135 for the same type of set-up re stabling/storage/fields etc (BUT without a school) seem reasonable?
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If that’s the local going rate, yes, very fair. Good luck
 
There are plenty of people who work from home, work shifts or flexi time though who wouldn't be affected. Or people who will only ride at weekends over winter or semi retired horses etc.

I work full time and hack before work all year round. Would I do it with a flighty 4 year old? Probably not - I'd probably want a school - but my bold native is perfectly happy to do so and I'm not the only one.

It might make the yard not for everyone (just as yards with fancy facilities but not great hacking wouldn't be for me) but it doesn't mean it should automatically discounted.

Re: Bringing in - again, for the right people it won't be an issue. I've been at yards similiar in the past and with a combination of using a freelance groom (a few of us clubbed together for the groom so we split their hourly rate) and/or returning favours with other owners it was fine. It was actually better than some part livery I've been on as we had more flexibility.
 
MuddyMonster said:
There are plenty of people who work from home, work shifts or flexi time though who wouldn't be affected. Or people who will only ride at weekends over winter or semi retired horses etc.

I work full time and hack before work all year round. Would I do it with a flighty 4 year old? Probably not - I'd probably want a school - but my bold native is perfectly happy to do so and I'm not the only one.

It might make the yard not for everyone (just as yards with fancy facilities but not great hacking wouldn't be for me) but it doesn't mean it should automatically discounted.

Re: Bringing in - again, for the right people it won't be an issue. I've been at yards similiar in the past and with a combination of using a freelance groom (a few of us clubbed together for the groom so we split their hourly rate) and/or returning favours with other owners it was fine. It was actually better than some part livery I've been on as we had more flexibility.
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Thank you for your well considered reply. I think you describe exactly the type of horse owner this would appeal to - only 8 stables, so not too many of that ilk to find 😀.
 
My last 2 yards have been DIY with no school. 99% of the liveries worked full time (including me!) so having to bring in before dark seems like an absolute bonkers idea. Sometimes i'm turning out in the dark, never mind bringing in. I wouldn't want them stood in for so long either.

Make sure you put in the advert that horses have to be in before dark in winter so you don't waste peoples/your time with people that have full time jobs asking for info.
 
Can you put in some battery or solar lighting? or a combination of the 2?

I don't see the lack of school being a deal breaker as long as the hacking is good locally/from the yard. But I do think a stable yard without lighting may well be.

I have no facilities what so ever, but I do light my working area's to make life work for me. A few solar security lights outside stables on sensors and battery lights in stables (liveries provide their own if you want to do it that way) and lights in feed rooms etc, and then most of us horse owners that work full time will be very familiar with head torches for brining in at night.

I think a little less than your average yard with a school as a price point and really push the hacking.
Get OS maps and mark out the bridle ways and have them in the tack room for reference.
Maybe speak to the yard with the school and see if they are willing to offer a discount to your liveries to hire in their quiet times.
Speak to the local vets practise (one most people are likely to use) and see if they'll do the a group booking for teeth etc at a discount.
Can you offer trailer or lorry parking and include that in your livery price?

Anything that gives a little sweetener over facilities that a happy hacker might not use.
 
MadWorld said:
Thank you.
Yes, local arenas to hire and the hacking is good (a mix of country roads and bridleways). The ground is quite sloping which makes a grass arena/canter track/school more difficult/expensive to install. 20 minute ride to a local estate that sells yearly passes (canter tracks and some xc fences), 20 min box journey to a local forest with riding tracks. There's lots to like, but it will obviously best suit people that like their hacking and outings and can exercise their horses within daylight hours.
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The good off-road hacking locally would definitely sweeten the deal for me, I actually find an arena less useful than somewhere to go and have a good canter as cr*p hacking is my biggest frustration in trying to get and keep horses fit. I do rely on our floodlit arena to exercise my horse in winter but to be honest I think I am the only livery who actually uses the lights - everyone else seems to ride much earlier than me during the day or are weekend happy-hackers.

I can see why people are concerned about the 'bringing in before dark' but I will say in my experience of being on DIY, there was a large group of liveries who didn't work/worked part time who all brought their horses in before dark anyway - so I was left with having to make arrangements for mine so he wasn't left out alone. We're on full-livery now for this reason as I work long hours and can't bring my horse in at 3/4pm, but I actually don't think you'd have as much of an issue with that rule as people think, a lot of yards round here say they have to be in by 3/4pm in winter and people just deal with it. The yard I was on had excellent off-road hacking so I think it appealed to the sort of livery you're hoping to attract (hence lots of people around during the daytime), versus the bigger yards with more on-site facilities that suited those of us who work long hours, but the stables were always full!
 
Crackerz said:
My last 2 yards have been DIY with no school. 99% of the liveries worked full time (including me!) so having to bring in before dark seems like an absolute bonkers idea. Sometimes i'm turning out in the dark, never mind bringing in. I wouldn't want them stood in for so long either.

Make sure you put in the advert that horses have to be in before dark in winter so you don't waste peoples/your time with people that have full time jobs asking for info.
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Having been on a DIY yard before where horses left out after dark in the winter have completely churned up their field (after other horses are brought in), I don't think it's an unreasonable request. I'm not so concerned about horses going out as the day breaks, it's at the other end of the day when horses are wanting to come in that concerns me.
Yes, I will be clear about this, for sure.
 
dorsetladette said:
Can you put in some battery or solar lighting? or a combination of the 2?

I don't see the lack of school being a deal breaker as long as the hacking is good locally/from the yard. But I do think a stable yard without lighting may well be.

I have no facilities what so ever, but I do light my working area's to make life work for me. A few solar security lights outside stables on sensors and battery lights in stables (liveries provide their own if you want to do it that way) and lights in feed rooms etc, and then most of us horse owners that work full time will be very familiar with head torches for brining in at night.

I think a little less than your average yard with a school as a price point and really push the hacking.
Get OS maps and mark out the bridle ways and have them in the tack room for reference.
Maybe speak to the yard with the school and see if they are willing to offer a discount to your liveries to hire in their quiet times.
Speak to the local vets practise (one most people are likely to use) and see if they'll do the a group booking for teeth etc at a discount.
Can you offer trailer or lorry parking and include that in your livery price?

Anything that gives a little sweetener over facilities that a happy hacker might not use.
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Apologies, I maybe haven't been clear about the lighting. Around the yard, stabling, courtyard area etc are all well lit. But the track from the fields is downhill and unlit.
Great idea regarding the maps and the booking of local arenas in quiet times.
There is trailer/horsebox parking in place and you're right, anything that gives a little sweetener is a great way of thinking of it.
 
KikiDee said:
The good off-road hacking locally would definitely sweeten the deal for me, I actually find an arena less useful than somewhere to go and have a good canter as cr*p hacking is my biggest frustration in trying to get and keep horses fit. I do rely on our floodlit arena to exercise my horse in winter but to be honest I think I am the only livery who actually uses the lights - everyone else seems to ride much earlier than me during the day or are weekend happy-hackers.

I can see why people are concerned about the 'bringing in before dark' but I will say in my experience of being on DIY, there was a large group of liveries who didn't work/worked part time who all brought their horses in before dark anyway - so I was left with having to make arrangements for mine so he wasn't left out alone. We're on full-livery now for this reason as I work long hours and can't bring my horse in at 3/4pm, but I actually don't think you'd have as much of an issue with that rule as people think, a lot of yards round here say they have to be in by 3/4pm in winter and people just deal with it. The yard I was on had excellent off-road hacking so I think it appealed to the sort of livery you're hoping to attract (hence lots of people around during the daytime), versus the bigger yards with more on-site facilities that suited those of us who work long hours, but the stables were always full!
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Yes, I think it will appeal to people who can work flexible times/doesn't work or works part-time, or people that can help each other out with bringing in. I'm not so concerned about the horses going out as the sun comes up (doing stables etc first then turning out just before they leave), it's more the getting in at the end of the day when the horses generally want to come in, as the walkway isn't lit and is on a downward slope. As we are (happily) now seeing, the shorter days don't last for too long (even though it feels like it at the beginning of January!)
Lots of great ideas from people on upping the appeal, ideas for bringing in etc...exactly what I was hoping for.
 
MadWorld said:
Having been on a DIY yard before where horses left out after dark in the winter have completely churned up their field (after other horses are brought in), I don't think it's an unreasonable request. I'm not so concerned about horses going out as the day breaks, it's at the other end of the day when horses are wanting to come in that concerns me.
Yes, I will be clear about this, for sure.
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Generally a rule that no horse is left alone in the field solves any issue with them churning fields up to come in.

Alternatively you could supply a freelancer to bring in at your preferred time over winter and include in your livery price.

MadWorld said:
Apologies, I maybe haven't been clear about the lighting. Around the yard, stabling, courtyard area etc are all well lit. But the track from the fields is downhill and unlit.
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Head torches are pretty handy
 
For me, the main problem with the DIY setup you describe would be the inability to bring in in the dark with a headtorch.

I think having no school but good hacking is not a limitation, but just means you're looking at a different client base. I would imagine that potential client base is still big enough that there will be good demand for what you're offering.

However the lack of flexibility and need to bring everything in well before the end of a working day would further restrict your pool of potential clients. As @dorsetladette says personally I'd be inclined to re-think this and instead implement a rule that nothing must ever be left out alone.

The livery yard I was on had this rule and it meant that in the winter, I was often either bringing in or turning out an additional horse other than my own, but as it was a small relaxed yard where everyone knew each other, the horses were all pretty chilled about it so it was easy and no bother. One person had horses that could be more difficult and I wouldn't have wanted to handle them, but as she owned four, she was just left to her own devices.

The freelancer idea seems like a good solution, or just do it yourself and charge accordingly? If you know you're going to be doing it every day that's easier than having people messaging you in dribs and drabs at short notice with "can you bring X in today, I'm stuck at work" etc.
 
I think you’ll really struggle with the “no bringing in after dark” thing. It’s dark by 3pm during winter, and I think you’ll have a very small pool of people who’ll be able to make that work (realistically, only those who don’t work or who have very flexible hours).
 
MadWorld said:
Having been on a DIY yard before where horses left out after dark in the winter have completely churned up their field (after other horses are brought in), I don't think it's an unreasonable request. I'm not so concerned about horses going out as the day breaks, it's at the other end of the day when horses are wanting to come in that concerns me.
Yes, I will be clear about this, for sure.
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If that evening darkness is such a deal breaker for you, might be safer stipulating a specific time for them all to be back inside, Nov - March, whatever; or it’s bound to come unstuck with poorer light on miserable days, subjective views of what is sufficient daylight, shifting seasons, etc.
And at least that way all liveries have a static, reliable yardstick to work to.
There’s only eight of them anyway: maybe insist all boxes are left ready after morning stables, and either fetch them yourself, or pay a groom specifically for that task - inclusive in the rent.
 
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