Livery yard - Trading Standards?

[milesjess]

Just wondered, not going into full detail due to nature of post but if a livery yard is actively taking on liveries/ advertising/ taking money/ providing invoices/ operating as a business without licence/ insurance/ declaring tax, what is the process of reporting them?

As I say, can't go into full detail but any help would be appreciated?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

The best route would be to notify the tax office. They really don't like tax evasion. You should be aware that there is no licensing scheme for livery yards in UK, only for RS.

 

[popsdosh]

Just wondered, not going into full detail due to nature of post but if a livery yard is actively taking on liveries/ advertising/ taking money/ providing invoices/ operating as a business without licence/ insurance/ declaring tax, what is the process of reporting them?

As I say, can't go into full detail but any help would be appreciated?

Report them to HMRC however I very much doubt they are not paying tax as they are issuing invoices! They would be stupid to if they are not declaring it!How do you know they are not declaring Tax?

As for the others what are you reporting as they dont need a licence and they dont have to have insurance! Its their risk if they dont have insurance but there is no legal requirement for it.

If it was a riding school they would but thats a different matter. At the end of the day there are no regulations covering livery yards ,if there were half would close down.

 

[jrp204]

There is a difference in not declaring income and not paying tax. They could be declaring but are not earning enough after taking out expenses etc that they are under their tax threshold. If they are declaring and then not paying tax the HMRC will catch up them. If they are not declaring the income is it any of your business?
Other than that they are not doing anything wrong. You have obviously got a bee in your bonnet.

 

[milesjess]

It's not a riding school; weren't sure if they needed insurance but do they not need some sort of approval to be a livery yard?

As for tax evasion, again it's something that they'd have to investigate to confirm it.. I'm sure all will come to light with the right people looking into it.

 

[milesjess]

There is a difference in not declaring income and not paying tax. They could be declaring but are not earning enough after taking out expenses etc that they are under their tax threshold. If they are declaring and then not paying tax the HMRC will catch up them. If they are not declaring the income is it any of your business?
Other than that they are not doing anything wrong. You have obviously got a bee in your bonnet.

I'm not getting into a debate - I'm asking for advice end of. It is my business, as it is everyone else's who is suspected of not doing what they are supposed to. There's no 'bee in my bonnet', as you put it.

If I need advice on a matter then I'll ask for it, I don't have to justify or explain myself.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

No approval required from any bodies to run a livery yard at all. Those 'better' yards sometimes seek to be BHS approved, but they are a minority in the big scheme of things.
Yes, they should be paying tax (but thats their business to do so, nobody elses)
Yes, they 'ought' to have insurances, but again - its not mandatory.

OP, what exactly is the problem? :confused3:

 

[sarahw123]

I'm not getting into a debate - I'm asking for advice end of. It is my business, as it is everyone else's who is suspected of not doing what they are supposed to. There's no 'bee in my bonnet', as you put it.

If I need advice on a matter then I'll ask for it, I don't have to justify or explain myself.

Why not google it? The amount of people that come on here to bitch or be busy bodies is so tiresome.
Agree with milesjess post.

 

[sarahw123]

Sorry, agree with jrp204. Brain not working

 

[popsdosh]

No approval required from any bodies to run a livery yard at all. Those 'better' yards sometimes seek to be BHS approved, but they are a minority in the big scheme of things.
Yes, they should be paying tax (but thats their business to do so, nobody elses)
Yes, they 'ought' to have insurances, but again - its not mandatory.

OP, what exactly is the problem? :confused3:

I suspect somebody upset or competition.
OP in your last post you have just contradicted yourself You said the word as well suspected !!! Just take a deep breath before you contact HMRC as I said in my post anybody issuing invoices are very unlikely to not be declaring income for tax purposes!
Heres the link to report it ,I hope you feel better for it!

https://online.hmrc.gov.uk/shortforms/form/TEH_IRF

 

[criso]

I suspect somebody upset or competition.]

Not necessarily, I'm sure most of us over the years have seen livery yards which are appalling and common sense says surely they can't be allowed to operate like this.

However there is not a lot you can do to report them for being substandard, incompetent or downright dangerous unless they are breaking the law.

The only things they have to comply with is tax and depending on the type of property they should probably be paying business rates.

 

[Wagtail]

Oh FFS keep your nose out of it. The likelihood is they won't owe any tax in any case. I am registered with the inland revenue and I made a LOSS the first few years. Even now I am not even coming close to owing tax. There is not a lot to be made out of a livery business. And I only do full livery. Anyway, how do you know they do not have insurance/pay tax etc? Yes they should be registered for business rates too but for the past few years low income businesses have had 100% rebate, so again nothing owed there. It is up to the YO to make sure they are registered with these authorities. If/when they are found out then anything owed will be backdated to when they commenced trading. They MAY be eligible for a fine, again, their business, not yours. I would think differently if they were claiming benefits and not declaring earnings, but not if they are trying to scratch out a living which believe me, will be a pittance.

 

[Batgirl]

Every business legally HAS to have employers liability insurance if it has employees (or volunteers). PL is another matter

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Who cares really. It's the business owners thing to worry about not yours really

 

[milesjess]

Oh FFS keep your nose out of it. The likelihood is they won't owe any tax in any case. I am registered with the inland revenue and I made a LOSS the first few years. Even now I am not even coming close to owing tax. There is not a lot to be made out of a livery business. And I only do full livery. Anyway, how do you know they do not have insurance/pay tax etc? Yes they should be registered for business rates too but for the past few years low income businesses have had 100% rebate, so again nothing owed there. It is up to the YO to make sure they are registered with these authorities. If/when they are found out then anything owed will be backdated to when they commenced trading. They MAY be eligible for a fine, again, their business, not yours. I would think differently if they were claiming benefits and not declaring earnings, but not if they are trying to scratch out a living which believe me, will be a pittance.

Charming... Excuse me for asking for 'advice'! There's me thinking that's what a forum is for.

I WONT mind my own business and will take what ever steps necessary if I need to. Like I said the full picture is painted because I don't want to announce it on a public forum.

Thanks to all those who have answered my query and not jumped down my throat.

Oh and to clarify, I am NOT jealous/ competition/ envious etc...

Thank you

 

[sarahw123]

EXACTLY - this is a PUBLIC FORUM. If its secretive/sensitive, go through proper process and contact HMRC. They can probably help more anyway.
I don't know about anyone else, but I would google/phone hmrc as first point of call.
People just get a bit fed up with these kind of threads, hence the majority of replies. No one likes a busy body.

 

[milesjess]

EXACTLY - this is a PUBLIC FORUM. If its secretive/sensitive, go through proper process and contact HMRC. They can probably help more anyway.
I don't know about anyone else, but I would google/phone hmrc as first point of call.
People just get a bit fed up with these kind of threads, hence the majority of replies. No one likes a busy body.

But I couldn't go and speak to them without knowing were to go to... Hence the post

As fed up as people get, it is a forum.

 

[popsdosh]

Can I suggest OP fill in the online form I linked for you it is totally anonymous but you do need to enter your details. However if you are expecting to hear back from them you wont as it does not work like thjat. So it wont answer any questions for you. The people behind it will most likely hear nothing either as HMRC wont look at it unless they think there is an issue.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Can't help the OP, but actually it's quite interesting to hear the legalities of these things. I'm sure that many of us know yards that operate below the radar. Some are good, many are rubbish.

The insurance side would bother me (if a yard employs someone but does not have appropriate liability).

 

[Wagtail]

I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, hence my response. It's not like they will be raking it in; quite the contrary. I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it, but in the vast majority of cases they will not owe any tax in any case... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.

 

[sarahw123]

I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, hence my response. It's not like they will be raking it in; quite the contrary. I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it, but in the vast majority of cases they will not owe any tax in any case... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.

Hear hear!

And as for not knowing where to go/look for info - in this day and age are you kidding me? In the time it took to create this thread most would have found what they needed to via the Internet. Without broadcasting it

 

[Batgirl]

I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, hence my response. It's not like they will be raking it in; quite the contrary. I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it, but in the vast majority of cases they will not owe any tax in any case... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.

Having a lack of insurance is the bigger issue here, what is to say something horrible couldn't happen and there would be no way or recouping losses, they are also a drain on those who operate properly.

 

[Goldenstar]

Madly you don't need PL insurance to run a livery yard.
I expect many many small yards never get near to making enough to go over the tax threshold .

 

[Dry Rot]

My goodness, a lot of touchy people around today! Whose to say the OP doesn't operate one of these yards and wants to check out the legalities before getting into trouble? Every question adds to the general knowledge and I for one am interested in the answers -- and I've no intentions of opening a yard (from bitter experience!) or reporting anyone who does.

One thing that did put me off when I was asked if I would take liveries (rather than let grazing) is that the land would go from agricultural to amenity and that could affect death duties. But then I won't be around to pay them, will I? So maybe I don't care after all!

 

[chocolategirl]

There is a difference in not declaring income and not paying tax. They could be declaring but are not earning enough after taking out expenses etc that they are under their tax threshold. If they are declaring and then not paying tax the HMRC will catch up them. If they are not declaring the income is it any of your business?
Other than that they are not doing anything wrong. You have obviously got a bee in your bonnet.

Agree with this. I think clients need to be very careful which thread they start pulling at! Most livery yard couldn't operate if they had to follow licensing regs etc and when they close that will double if not treble the price of keeping your horse at livery. And that's assuming you can find one!

 

[honetpot]

Who cares really. It's the business owners thing to worry about not yours really

Actually its every ones business. Every business that supplies goods or services to the public should have public liability and if they employ anyone have employees liability. I have no liveries but do own land and I have insurance for stock straying, people being injured on my property and products liability in case I sell a few apples and someone bites into a grub.
I wonder if you would be so sanguine if it was a garage, or car trader dealing from his home. My daughter is a seamstress , an a outwardly low risk occupation but she has full liability insurance to if your wedding dress goes up in smoke whist in here care, she's covered. If they are running a business they should also pay business rates on any buildings, whether they get 100% relief or not.

 

[popsdosh]

The original question was about legal things, insurance is not something you are legally required to have to run a livery. Its up to you if you wish to run the risk of not having it.
Nobody up to now has suggested they have employees so thats probably not an issue but honestly is it really anybody elses business whether they have it apart from them and their employees.
I think people have got sucked in here as there has been no proof that they dont comply with any of their responsibilities offered so far just insinuations!
See I take 'actively taking on liveries/ advertising/ taking money/ providing invoices/' as meaning they are not trying to hide their running a business, perhaps others feel differently.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Oh FFS keep your nose out of it. The likelihood is they won't owe any tax in any case. I am registered with the inland revenue and I made a LOSS the first few years. Even now I am not even coming close to owing tax. There is not a lot to be made out of a livery business. And I only do full livery. Anyway, how do you know they do not have insurance/pay tax etc? Yes they should be registered for business rates too but for the past few years low income businesses have had 100% rebate, so again nothing owed there. It is up to the YO to make sure they are registered with these authorities. If/when they are found out then anything owed will be backdated to when they commenced trading. They MAY be eligible for a fine, again, their business, not yours. I would think differently if they were claiming benefits and not declaring earnings, but not if they are trying to scratch out a living which believe me, will be a pittance.

Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)? Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?

 

[dieseldog]

This is an odd post with odd replies. At what point is tax evasion morally OK, if you earn less than £20K, if you are an equine enterprise? No one likes Amazon's lack of tax paying or Specsavers - but they are doing tax avoidance, which is legal, not tax evasion which is illegal.

 

[popsdosh]

Can I ask, what is the difference between claiming benefits and running a business and not declaring your income for tax purposes (which appears to be what OP suspects in this case)? Both surely are cases of defrauding the tax-payer?

Just to be a little picky then sorry . The OP did not say suspect it was actually worded as fact.A dangerous thing for them to do from a personal point of view if they are wrong .

'is actively taking on liveries/ advertising/ taking money/ providing invoices/ operating as a business without licence/ insurance/ declaring tax, what is the process of reporting them? '

Would you be happy if somebody said that about you? I do agree with you on the first part of your quote though there should be no distinction between them!