Livery yard - Trading Standards?

Wagtail said:
I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, hence my response. It's not like they will be raking it in; quite the contrary. I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it, but in the vast majority of cases they will not owe any tax in any case... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.
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I agree with wagtail we don't have insurance we state that in our contract and out rules - our income is low we make no money we don't want to be BHS approved as I have read and seen the terms you need perfect fencing no grooming kits in stables etc which my liveries like. BHS Approved is by no means assurance its a perfect yard.
 
hang on - why shouldn't someone not paying tax not be reported?
I pay my tax - why does joe bloggs down the road get to earn an extra 20-40% because he doesn't want to pay tax? I don't want to pay tax but why do I have to and joe bloggs doesn't? If joe bloggs isn't paying tax why shouldn't someone report him so that he can pay his fair share rather than get a free ride?
 
Also- regards the reason - op may have a welfare issue and the only way to get at it is through the tax system...
 
I think its very unwise to involve reporting a yard for no insurance etc. Unless horses are being cruelly treated and abused. the horse world is smaller than you think and this yard may use this forum and might eve recognize the picture in your avatar.

I make little to no profit due to the day to day running and improvements in the yard. Sorry I think its spiteful unless your reasons are unfounded for the horses safety.

As long as a yard makes owners aware that there is no insurance then I see no problem.
 
Theocat said:
. Surely better for everyone that liveries are charged a fair price and people only keep horses if they can afford to pay that fair price?

£25 per week for stable and grazing is pretty unrealistic in most circumstances if you want a decent service for the livery and a fair wage for the YO. So why does it seem to be the norm?
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completely agree although have been roundly shouted down on this board for saying this previously.
 
I do wonder why it is considered spiteful to report a business who may or may not be evading tax, but consider it right and proper to report suspected benefit fraud? I can't see any difference.
 
SusieT said:
hang on - why shouldn't someone not paying tax not be reported?
I pay my tax - why does joe bloggs down the road get to earn an extra 20-40% because he doesn't want to pay tax? I don't want to pay tax but why do I have to and joe bloggs doesn't? If joe bloggs isn't paying tax why shouldn't someone report him so that he can pay his fair share rather than get a free ride?
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As stated many times in this thread, it is highly unlikely that the livery owner owes tax.
 
YorksG said:
I do wonder why it is considered spiteful to report a business who may or may not be evading tax, but consider it right and proper to report suspected benefit fraud? I can't see any difference.
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I personally wouldn't report either! I don't agree with tax evasion or benefits fraud, but have better things to do than go reporting it.
 
I think that the issue here is that it is most unlikely the OP has any knowledge as to whether the person concerned is paying taxes/has insurance and therefore is simply trying to cause trouble for the individual(s) concerned.
We are a taxable business but we have approx 50 liveries at any one time. It is most unlikely a person with a handful of liveries would be earning anything like enough for that income to be taxable. In my experience people who try to cause trouble for others often end up in far more trouble themselves.
 
I also ask myself what this poor yard has done to OP to make them go to this extreme. Most like a disgruntle livery asked to leave the yard through their own wrong doings.

I just hope the OP has got backing as if this yard finds out she posted this thread they could print it out and use it as slander in court. With a picture of their horse in the avatar and friends who may know this horse or this person words can leak out.

Also how does the Op know so much about this yard

the fact they don't pay tax
Insurance
License

I hardly think the YO would disclose things like tax and VAT and license to any livery they had.
 
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HGA-12 said:
I also ask myself what this poor yard has done to OP to make them go to this extreme. Most like a disgruntle livery asked to leave the yard through their own wrong doings.

I just hope the OP has got backing as if this yard finds out she posted this thread they could print it out and use it as slander in court. With a picture of their horse in the avatar and friends who may know this horse or this person words can leak out.

Also how does the Op know so much about this yard

the fact they don't pay tax
Insurance
License

I hardly think the YO would disclose things like tax and VAT and license to any livery they had.
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Slander is spoken deffamation, libel is written and there is nothing to say which yard this is about!
 
Just because the yard almost certainly doesn't owe tax, it doesn't mean they shouldn't declare income. If they don't owe anything they won't be charged - but it's up to HMRC to make that decision, not the individual because they CBA filling out a few forms...

The morality of reporting is a different issue - but on the basis that someone bending rules probably bends them elsewhere (like liability insurance) then it does make it a bit more important.
 
minesadouble said:
I think that the issue here is that it is most unlikely the OP has any knowledge as to whether the person concerned is paying taxes/has insurance and therefore is simply trying to cause trouble for the individual(s) concerned.
We are a taxable business but we have approx 50 liveries at any one time. It is most unlikely a person with a handful of liveries would be earning anything like enough for that income to be taxable. In my experience people who try to cause trouble for others often end up in far more trouble themselves.
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But you not know what other taxable income they have. One year I worked for two employers at the same time and was self employed, all PAYE and self employed income was declared.
 
HGA-12 said:
I agree with wagtail we don't have insurance we state that in our contract and out rules - our income is low we make no money we don't want to be BHS approved as I have read and seen the terms you need perfect fencing no grooming kits in stables etc which my liveries like. BHS Approved is by no means assurance its a perfect yard.
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You must be crazy not to have insurance. Most household insurance covers you for accidents and legal fees if anyone try's to claim , and a stable yard is far more dangerous.
 
honetpot said:
You must be crazy not to have insurance. Most household insurance covers you for accidents and legal fees if anyone try's to claim , and a stable yard is far more dangerous.
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The property has insurance obviously but

we don't offer any and it states that our contract, liveries have their own insurance.

I am not airing anymore about my yard on a public forum.
 
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Wagtail said:
I just think it is a spiteful thing to do, ......... I would understand your concern if they were claiming benefits and not declaring it..... I just can't understand people who have nothing better to do than tell tales on others.
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Hmm.
So it's fine to shop potential benefits cheats but potential tax dodgers are ok??
 
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Theocat said:
I'm afraid I think increased professionalism in the horse world would benefit everyone - professionals would get paid better because they wouldn't be competing with the cheap below-the-radar "businesses"; owners and riders should get better services and more comeback if things go wrong; horse welfare would increase because you'd get less of things being done on the cheap and corner cutting.

Whether or not you are liable to pay tax, you should still declare your income. Everyone else has to if they run any sort of business; why, yet again, does there seem to be a view that the "professional" horse world is somehow exempt from the tedious paperwork and rule-following that everyone else has to do?

And as far as insurance goes, that IS everyone's business. If a yard owner doesn't have public liability insurance and a horse gets through dodgy fencing in front of my car, it's very much my business. If I'm a livery and the stable hand is injured by my horse and not insured by the employer, how do you think I'm going to feel about that?

I suppose I believe in everyone doing their bit to make society work fairly. That means we don't pick and choose which rules we want to follow. Breaking and ignoring rules is one of the biggest sources of problems in the equine business world (broken livery contracts, etc) for owners and professionals - if you want to run a business, play fair and do it properly!
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This ^
 
Unless it's a decent sized livery yard the owner is likely making no/minimal profit and thus won't be eligible to pay any tax. They will (or certainly should) file their income made from the yard. As to the yard not being insured, well they are incredibly foolish if they have no insurance to cover their yard and the horses residing on it. Livery yards don't require licensing therefore no one to report them to for not having it.
 
TBH I think the reason that licensing of livery services has never occurred is that everyone that's ever looked at it seriously knows that any meaningful regulations will increase the cost of providing livery considerably and seriously decrease that number of livery places available.
And something will have to happen to all those horses .
 
pixie said:
I think then that liveries need to be prepared to pay a more realistic amount of money for their horses keep....
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Quite a few do thankfully. I'm easily the most expensive place in my area and I've been full for years. I know a lot of little yards locally who charge half of what I do and they really struggle to get more than a handful of people through their doors.
 
Spring Feather said:
Quite a few do thankfully. I'm easily the most expensive place in my area and I've been full for years. I know a lot of little yards locally who charge half of what I do and they really struggle to get more than a handful of people through their doors.
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You're in a different country though. Not so much here, crappy cheap yards always seem chockablock and nicer yards that cost more turn over more. I think a lot of people that have horses can't really afford them.
 
Honey08 said:
You're in a different country though. Not so much here, crappy cheap yards always seem chockablock and nicer yards that cost more turn over more. I think a lot of people that have horses can't really afford them.
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That's a shame then. It's no wonder it's tough to make things work when people can't afford or aren't prepared to pay for good service.
 
OP, I believe you have been given info on how to report if you wish. If this yard is doing something dodgy then that was their choice and if they end up in hot water over it, their problem. I would ensure to the best of your knowledge there is something suspect going on before reporting as if not it may not work in your favour.

As for opinions that many people can't afford horses so choose crappy cheap yards and to be careful what you wish for, every coin has two sides. Without less wealthy peoples love and dream ambition to own a horse, those yards wouldn't have a livelihood either.

So unless we are all going to petition that people must have a certain disposable income to own a horse and keep it on a yard that must maintain a 'suitable' standard, that debate is going nowhere.
 
HGA-12 said:
I also ask myself what this poor yard has done to OP to make them go to this extreme. Most like a disgruntle livery asked to leave the yard through their own wrong doings.

I just hope the OP has got backing as if this yard finds out she posted this thread they could print it out and use it as slander in court. With a picture of their horse in the avatar and friends who may know this horse or this person words can leak out.

Also how does the Op know so much about this yard

the fact they don't pay tax
Insurance
License

I hardly think the YO would disclose things like tax and VAT and license to any livery they had.
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That's why I have been vague, I haven't said it's about the yard I'm on currently, or if my avatar pic is related to it. Someone who knows me could prob recognise my horse but again, I've not mentioned which yard, location etc so I'm not creating slander :)

Slander would be me saying, ''Do you know that yard XYZ, they don't pay tax or have insurance...'', I haven't said that at any point and wouldn't. That's why I'd let the right people look into it.
 
sarahw123 said:
Hear hear!

And as for not knowing where to go/look for info - in this day and age are you kidding me? In the time it took to create this thread most would have found what they needed to via the Internet. Without broadcasting it
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Well said!!! Horrible thing to do and spineless.
 
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