Livery yards being closed, banned from seeing our horses

[Bernster]

My understanding is the yard restrictions are around social distancing/non essential journeys. If the social distancing/non essential journeys not related to work may continue to be part of guidance they may not open up to customers. Social distancing recommendations may well continue till until there is a vaccine.

I don't know how economically viable it would be for yards to restrict access for more than a few months as if customers thought this might go on for 18 months they might consider moving yards or turning horses away rather than paying expensive full livery with no access indefinately.

I think that’s it - a lot of livery cost is about the care etc but to be paying out that much but with no access at all, and no use of facilities etc. I can’t see people putting up with that longer term especially if other yards are allowing some element of access. Let alone whether folks can even afford it given all this upheaval .

 

[Caol Ila]

That was my view when I started hearing about yards banning owners. What's the end game? According to my friend who's still at my old yard, my ex-yard owner has justified the ban, saying he doesn't want himself and his family at risk because if they get it, no one would be able to take care of the horses. That's a fair point, and owners will probably tolerate being separated from their horses for a few weeks, but the virus isn't going to go away in a few weeks. It will still be there, still a risk. If that's your justification for banning owners, then logically you will have to ban them until there's a vaccine. But I don't see anyone paying full livery prices for a horse they can't ride or even see for the next eighteen months, especially when many other yards are allowing access. That's insane.

 

[Shilasdair]

Personally, I think banning owners from seeing horses on full livery is not going to be viable for much longer. I know people with horses on such yards who are looking to move to DIY as soon as they can find a place.
I can see why full livery yards have jumped at the chance to lockdown - all the income, none of the hassle of liveries, nor the additional costs (electricity).
But owners aren't going to keep paying for a service they can't gain the full benefits from, so if the yards don't open after the next three week period, I suspect many will be forced out of business as liveries remove their horses.

 

[ecb89]

This is the problem. My yard is on lockdown but we are now allowed to walk through the fields to see the horses while they are out.
At first 3 weeks was ok, now it’s another 3 weeks, what about after that? Another 3, then another etc.
My ID is getting fatter by the day, he gains weight just looking at grass. I can’t afford for him to be exercised 5 times a week

 

[Frumpoon]

That was my view when I started hearing about yards banning owners. What's the end game? According to my friend who's still at my old yard, my ex-yard owner has justified the ban, saying he doesn't want himself and his family at risk because if they get it, no one would be able to take care of the horses. That's a fair point, and owners will probably tolerate being separated from their horses for a few weeks, but the virus isn't going to go away in a few weeks. It will still be there, still a risk. If that's your justification for banning owners, then logically you will have to ban them until there's a vaccine. But I don't see anyone paying full livery prices for a horse they can't ride or even see for the next eighteen months, especially when many other yards are allowing access. That's insane.

This was exactly my point that got folks running round hysterically further up the thread ?

A lot of yards banned owners without really thinking about why they were doing so, mine did and I moved my horses 3 days later no messing!

Lots of emotive words and phrases like 'covid hotbed' were used, you won't find these in a scientific journal because they have no real meaning.

Interestingly around here a lot of the yards that had fierce lockdown measures have now relaxed completely because a load of clients left - which sort of reinforces my point that none of the original lockdown measures in yards were for genuine reasons

 

[criso]

Not heard of relaxing round here yet. In fact of heard of 2 more today that are having no visits, one that's put all their diys on 7 day livery and another that was already on 7 day but now charging liveries for exercise.

 

[Gingerwitch]

This is the problem. My yard is on lockdown but we are now allowed to walk through the fields to see the horses while they are out.
At first 3 weeks was ok, now it’s another 3 weeks, what about after that? Another 3, then another etc.
My ID is getting fatter by the day, he gains weight just looking at grass. I can’t afford for him to be exercised 5 times a week

Is that him in the photo? He looks stunning

 

[ecb89]

Is that him in the photo? He looks stunning

Yes that’s him, I’m biased but to me he is the most gorgeous horse in the world

 

[Frumpoon]

Not heard of relaxing round here yet. In fact of heard of 2 more today that are having no visits, one that's put all their diys on 7 day livery and another that was already on 7 day but now charging liveries for exercise.

I used to keep mine on the London/Herts border and I'm not surprised

 

[Caol Ila]

This was exactly my point that got folks running round hysterically further up the thread ?

A lot of yards banned owners without really thinking about why they were doing so, mine did and I moved my horses 3 days later no messing!

Lots of emotive words and phrases like 'covid hotbed' were used, you won't find these in a scientific journal because they have no real meaning.

Interestingly around here a lot of the yards that had fierce lockdown measures have now relaxed completely because a load of clients left - which sort of reinforces my point that none of the original lockdown measures in yards were for genuine reasons

Arguably wanting to protect yourself and your family from getting COVID, especially if you live on the property, is a *genuine* reason to keep your herd of liveries away (some of whom are healthcare workers). But given the reality of the virus, it's not a *sustainable* reason because like I said, the virus ain't going anywhere and a vaccine is a long way off, so to eliminate all risk, you will need to ban your liveries for months. I imagine all but that one livery who never goes to the yard anyway will get the hell out of dodge, after a while. Eventually you will have to take the risk, if you want to keep your business, which makes it pointless to have banned owners in the first place. That's why it never made any sense to me (and you can imagine my relief when my yard didn't).

 

[Frumpoon]

You'd not only need to ban your liveries for months but you'd need to not take deliveries of food and supplies so as not to touch surfaces that had been potentially contaminated, you'd need to not go to the shops or GP or chemist...none of which is realistic

 

[Gingerwitch]

I do not want to start the bun fight again but I still cannot get over my original yard banning all the FL's but allowing all the DIY's to still ride and bath horses and sit round drinking coffee and going on multi rider hacks. They have lost a couple of multi horse owners whom were all good payers, I am now struggling to get my deposit back off them as they have asked if i can wait as they cannot afford to refund this to me because they have liveries that are in arrears.

New but old yard has been very sensible, we are assigned a slot, we are allowed to ride in a maximum of 2, no jumping or use of x country fences currently but this may change depending on this next 3 week's lockdown. No bathing unless its for a medical condition, the tack room has been closed along with the rest room. You have to wash hands and put on disposable gloves as you arrive on the yard, cannot use any yard tools, we have automatic waters but have been asked to leave filling up of hay soaking bins to be filled by the yard. We are allowed an hour and a half per horse, no lessons, no friends, allowed, no dogs but vets, farriers are still allowed on the yard. ~You are allowed to do your chores and ride, regardless of if you are on part or full livery, but are not allowed to stand around chatting and have to social distance. If you break the rules then your slot is changed and you are then allowed up when you can be supervised by the staff or if you still ignore the rules then they have said quite clearly you will be asked to leave the yard.

 

[SO1]

I suppose when this all started people didn't realise how long it might go for on. They thought maybe three weeks & everything would be ok.

I cannot see how they could safely lift the lockdown without a vaccine unless we all wear PPE in public areas. This virus started with just one person being infected & has now spread around the world. It is easy to spread. I can understand people being worried about dying & limiting access to the yard thinking people won't move their horses. There is no guarantee there will be a vaccine. How long will the government financially support people on furlough & small business. Unless yards create cartels so all local yards close access to liveries people may move yards. Some people may have to choose between taking a risk that they may pick up the virus from liveries or loosing so many liveries their business is no longer sustainable. Selling property will be difficult in lockdown & state benefits may not cover mortgage or contractual rent. Very tricky situation long term for YO who want to protect themselves from the virus.

Options may include rotas so that liveries can avoid contact with YO & staff. Perhaps ask people to come in the evenings when yard staff & YO have gone home. Maybe YO & staff could look at wearing some sort of PPE.

Arguably wanting to protect yourself and your family from getting COVID, especially if you live on the property, is a *genuine* reason to keep your herd of liveries away (some of whom are healthcare workers). But given the reality of the virus, it's not a *sustainable* reason because like I said, the virus ain't going anywhere and a vaccine is a long way off, so to eliminate all risk, you will need to ban your liveries for months. I imagine all but that one livery who never goes to the yard anyway will get the hell out of dodge, after a while. Eventually you will have to take the risk, if you want to keep your business, which makes it pointless to have banned owners in the first place. That's why it never made any sense to me (and you can imagine my relief when my yard didn't).

 

[criso]

One of the farriers who comes to our yard said his business is down because of people taking shoes off and turning away. If people can't ride, they may decide they may as well do this.

 

[Frumpoon]

I can absolutely promise right now that we will have restrictions in place until at least July and very likely beyond

It was never going to be 3 weeks or even 6 weeks

Spanish flu of the 1920's killed 20 million people and there was no global travel or even local/regional travel back then

My personal view is that 2m distance or banning your liveries or any other similar measure is going to have zero effect on the speed of transmission of this particular virus

 

[Gingerwitch]

I can absolutely promise right now that we will have restrictions in place until at least July and very likely beyond

It was never going to be 3 weeks or even 6 weeks

Spanish flu of the 1920's killed 20 million people and there was no global travel or even local/regional travel back then

My personal view is that 2m distance or banning your liveries or any other similar measure is going to have zero effect on the speed of transmission of this particular virus

A couple of yards around my old yard gave you 24 hours to get your horse off their premises if you did not like the lock down, add my old yard to this that is in excess of 100 horses that the owners have been banned from seeing. My new (old) yard has been inundated with calls from owners wanting to move, they have all stated the same reasons, they are happy to have restrictions but are not happy they are not allowed to see their own animals. One yard has had the tack room bolted up, so all the tack has been locked away.

Whilst the yards may survive C19, the fall out from a exit of clients after this may be another matter.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yes -- the yard in question had a rota and rules for disinfecting stuff you touched. My friend, who's an anesthetist, was very happy that the measures put in place were safe and reasonable. Then the YO changed his mind and banned everyone.

My yard has limited the amount of liveries who can be there at any one time. If there are six cars in the parking lot, you sit in your car until someone leaves. I've worked out what time virtually no one is there, and that's when I go, so I'm never waiting and never in a stressy rush to leave because there are other owners waiting.

 

[magicmoments]

Frankly I think it's terrible that YO's can ban liveries and then have the audacity to charge for full livery. If they want to minimise their risk, and inconvenience the liveries in the process, then the YO should take the hit. No problem with then putting in place time slots, or other conditions up to a point, although I would take exception to tack being locked away. They deserve to lose liveries in my opinion.

 

[shortstuff99]

I can absolutely promise right now that we will have restrictions in place until at least July and very likely beyond

It was never going to be 3 weeks or even 6 weeks

Spanish flu of the 1920's killed 20 million people and there was no global travel or even local/regional travel back then

My personal view is that 2m distance or banning your liveries or any other similar measure is going to have zero effect on the speed of transmission of this particular virus

Just to say the Spanish Flu and Covid-19 are very different diseases and aren't that easy to compare for this outbreak. The flu killed around 50 million as it mainly killed young 20-40 year olds and the transmission was so widespread due to the movement of troops during WW1 (it is believed it originated at a US fort). There was also a lack of understanding about virus transmissions and no treatments.

Covid-19 is less infectious then Spanish flu and we know how to treat pandemics differently now.

I think we will see longer measures but I can't see how it can be too much longer as you will end up with more deaths due to a tanked economy then you will see from the disease!

 

[Frumpoon]

Just to say the Spanish Flu and Covid-19 are very different diseases and aren't that easy to compare for this outbreak. The flu killed around 50 million as it mainly killed young 20-40 year olds and the transmission was so widespread due to the movement of troops during WW1 (it is believed it originated at a US fort). There was also a lack of understanding about virus transmissions and no treatments.

Covid-19 is less infectious then Spanish flu and we know how to treat pandemics differently now.

I think we will see longer measures but I can't see how it can be too much longer as you will end up with more deaths due to a tanked economy then you will see from the disease!

They are both respiratory viruses and epidemiologists have known we are well overdue for a pandemic for several years

The Spanish flu killed mostly younger people because they were mostly the ones moving about working etc

It had nothing to do with WW1

Anyone can access Wikipedia

 

[AmyMay]

It had nothing to do with WW1

Apart from the fact that troop movement helped spread it....

 

[criso]

They are both respiratory viruses and epidemiologists have known we are well overdue for a pandemic for several years

The Spanish flu killed mostly younger people because they were mostly the ones moving about working etc

It had nothing to do with WW1

Anyone can access Wikipedia

I thought Spanish flu killed younger people because older people had been exposed to a similar strain and had some immunity but those born after a certain date hadn't so had no resistance to it.

 

[shortstuff99]

They are both respiratory viruses and epidemiologists have known we are well overdue for a pandemic for several years

The Spanish flu killed mostly younger people because they were mostly the ones moving about working etc

It had nothing to do with WW1

Anyone can access Wikipedia

Yes they are both respiratory illnesses but they still work in different ways, many things cause respiratory illnesses but not all need the same treatment.

WW1 was pivotal in spread of the virus! Here is a reasonable article explaining why it appears it was so deadly https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...any-otherwise-healthy-young-adults-180967178/

 

[shortstuff99]

I thought Spanish flu killed younger people because older people had been exposed to a similar strain and had some immunity but those born after a certain date hadn't so had no resistance to it.

Yes that is correct ?.

 

[Frumpoon]

Apart from the fact that troop movement helped spread it....

It is one hypothesis but the flu reached much further afield than the nations that contributed troops

 

[Frumpoon]

Yes that is correct ?.

It is not necessarily correct, it is one hypothesis

 

[southerncomfort]

I think the Chief Scientific Officer has said from the start that it would likely be a case of easing and tightening restrictions several times over a long period.

Not sure how that would work but I suspect we'll be watching China, Italy and Spain very closely to see what happens.

In China their are small pockets of infections appearing but so far they seem small and under control.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Sad to say but i do not believe a single word from China and I am trying to avoid buying anything made in china again. I just hope out government will adopt the same. I am pretty sure France will hike import duties to the hilt as they do still have some balls.

 

[Frumpoon]

I think the Chief Scientific Officer has said from the start that it would likely be a case of easing and tightening restrictions several times over a long period.

Not sure how that would work but I suspect we'll be watching China, Italy and Spain very closely to see what happens.

In China their are small pockets of infections appearing but so far they seem small and under control.

Going back to the original point about yards and access to ones horses, probably makes the hysterical over reaction of some yard owners unsustainable and they will either have to close their doors or ease their stance

 

[NinjaPony]

I think yards will have to ease up a bit over the next few months. My yard is now arranging slots for owners to come and ride in the 2 schools between certain hours, following social distancing protocol.