Livery yards being closed, banned from seeing our horses

[teapot]

Teapot - everything is going to change as we know it, and whilst i understand some of your thoughts to have one set of folk spending hours at the yard and another group being banned at the same yard, in the same barns, using the same fields and muck fork and being allowed to ride out, it does not make sense, unless they are hiding something. It was obvious after my arriving on the yard to day that basic care in the terms of the horse is still alive were just about being met, a dirty bed is one thing, water buckets that had rings round and dirty yellow water in them and a rubbed wither and clots of hair does not mean they were getting basic care, which i was still paying full whack for. No wonder they do not want the FL's on the yard. I have posted pictures to my friends on the full livery yard and a few rather difficult questions are being asked by many of them.

The yard still has full staff, so what was the excuse ?

I would be taking it up with the yard owner. No excuse for that.

I'm on the other side of all this - one of the last emails I sent at work was telling our liveries when they would be able to visit, field only, and for how long. We did it to protect the girls who are on site given the number of horses they're looking after.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I would be taking it up with the yard owner. No excuse for that.

I'm on the other side of all this - one of the last emails I sent at work was telling our liveries when they would be able to visit, field only, and for how long. We did it to protect the girls who are on site given the number of horses they're looking after.

Hi Teapot and i see no issue with you doing this, and nor would I have had an issue at the yard I left today, the issue i had was the complete gap between what was allowed. FL's banned with the exception of the bank holiday weekend, which had been forgotten by the YO, so we were going to be allowed to go and do our horses but then be banned again,. The DIY''s many of them off work were spending huge amounts of time on the yard, still riding out and bathing horses, I would normally have said business as usual but after seeing what I saw today, it certainly was not, as I honestly have never seen so many folks on the yard.

 

[teapot]

Hi Teapot and i see no issue with you doing this, and nor would I have had an issue at the yard I left today, the issue i had was the complete gap between what was allowed. FL's banned with the exception of the bank holiday weekend, which had been forgotten by the YO, so we were going to be allowed to go and do our horses but then be banned again,. The DIY''s many of them off work were spending huge amounts of time on the yard, still riding out and bathing horses, I would normally have said business as usual but after seeing what I saw today, it certainly was not, as I honestly have never seen so many folks on the yard.

That's just piss poor management I'm afraid.

 

[SO1]

My understanding is the gov message will change probably to stay at home otherwise people will die.

The difficulty with public health messages is that they don't want to cause mass hysteria but at the same they need to encourage people to take the correct action.

Telling people to stay at home otherwise they or their loved ones might die of the virus would probably be very effective but scary & it might stop essential workers from going to work which would be disastrous too. The gov needs to get the rIght balance.

I would not be complacent just because you live in the countryside & are not in the vulnerable group. Food & essential goods and services are moved around the country from cities to rural areas. Country folk also do go holiday so could have brought the virus into rural communities that way. Fit young healthy people have been hospitalised/died.

But that isn't the wording from the government or the reasoning behind the lockdown. SLOW the spread of the virus to protect the NHS. Slow, not stop. Control it. We will never stop it going through the population, the minute movement is allowed again it'll come back.

 

[Michen]

My understanding is the gov message will change probably to stay at home otherwise people will die.

The difficulty with public health messages is that they don't want to cause mass hysteria but at the same they need to encourage people to take the correct action.

Telling people to stay at home otherwise they or their loved ones might die of the virus would probably be very effective but scary & it might stop essential workers from going to work which would be disastrous too. The gov needs to get the rIght balance.

I would not be complacent just because you live in the countryside & are not in the vulnerable group. Food & essential goods and services are moved around the country from cities to rural areas. Country folk also do go holiday so could have brought the virus into rural communities that way. Fit young healthy people have been hospitalised/died.

​

It’s not about being complacent though. It’s about realising that at some point unless totally self isolating and not going to shops you will more than likely be exposed to the virus.

It is about saving lives still because if the NHS get overwhelmed people will die as a result.

 

[Caol Ila]

I agree, to a degree. However I think some will see this as an excellent money making exercise

Yes -- my friend's yard owner, for one. I appreciate the reasoning behind banning liveries, although I don't like it and still think there are less drastic ways to protect everyone while not preventing people from seeing their animals for potentially months. But putting everyone on full livery at a yard that's at the upper end of the price range for the area anyway, and THEN asking for another big handful of cash for providing a service that's necessary for the horse's welfare? And you have the horse owner over a barrel, so they've got to do it. That's almost profiteering.

My friend will be moving as soon as lockdowns and life allows.

 

[DirectorFury]

I’m torn as I know we’re supposed to limit travel and if on full livery we don’t have to go for essential care. But if this goes on for longer, I’d love it if more yards would so this. But on the flip side, I know this is for the greater good.

Doubtless I'll be slated for this but if this goes on for the estimated 6 months then I'm going to have to consider riding part of essential care. YO usually works miracles by keeping M's weight down but she needs exercise on top, without the exercise she'll likely come down with lami (EMS) or have to spend the summer locked in her stable. It's a small yard (7 full liveries, no DIY) and I'd be the only one visiting or riding regularly. Two of our hacking routes are usually deserted with no contact with gates or fences so we could stick to them.

And before I'm accused of making excuses please feel free to look at my posting history where you can read all about my battles with her weight and fear of laminitis. We have tried *everything* and the only combo that works is hard work, a muzzle, and a bare field.

 

[Muddywellies]

My understanding is the gov message will change probably to stay at home otherwise people will die.

The difficulty with public health messages is that they don't want to cause mass hysteria but at the same they need to encourage people to take the correct action.

Telling people to stay at home otherwise they or their loved ones might die of the virus would probably be very effective but scary & it might stop essential workers from going to work which would be disastrous too. The gov needs to get the rIght balance.

I would not be complacent just because you live in the countryside & are not in the vulnerable group. Food & essential goods and services are moved around the country from cities to rural areas. Country folk also do go holiday so could have brought the virus into rural communities that way. Fit young healthy people have been hospitalised/died.

​

You need to consider how many people are dying WITH the virus, and how many are dying OF the virus. There's a vast difference. And as they roll out testing, the number of cases will skyrocket, simply because more people are being tested, not because more people have it.

 

[Winters100]

Doubtless I'll be slated for this but if this goes on for the estimated 6 months then I'm going to have to consider riding part of essential care. YO usually works miracles by keeping M's weight down but she needs exercise on top, without the exercise she'll likely come down with lami (EMS) or have to spend the summer locked in her stable. It's a small yard (7 full liveries, no DIY) and I'd be the only one visiting or riding regularly. Two of our hacking routes are usually deserted with no contact with gates or fences so we could stick to them.

And before I'm accused of making excuses please feel free to look at my posting history where you can read all about my battles with her weight and fear of laminitis. We have tried *everything* and the only combo that works is hard work, a muzzle, and a bare field.

This to me is exactly the point. If everyone who is like me, lucky enough to have horses who do not need extra attention, can stay away then it leaves yards empty for people who, like you, would have genuine welfare issues if they do not visit. But as long as people are focused on what is 'fair' in their eyes, and feeling that if someone else does something then they are somehow entitled to do the same, then this doesn't work.

 

[Gingerwitch]

This to me is exactly the point. If everyone who is like me, lucky enough to have horses who do not need extra attention, can stay away then it leaves yards empty for people who, like you, would have genuine welfare issues if they do not visit. But as long as people are focused on what is 'fair' in their eyes, and feeling that if someone else does something then they are somehow entitled to do the same, then this doesn't work.

Winters so you really think that my horse being left with a rug on that has cut into his withers, was left in a stinking bed with disgusting waters was "fair" for the horse ? but you just have to keep having a dig don't you?? Their was obviously a reason the FL's were asked not to go to the yard, and their was no logic in whom was being banned. DIY's could ride out, lunge, bath but FL's could not visit... but your gut usually kicks in and you know if something is off and it was.

 

[Winters100]

Winters so you really think that my horse being left with a rug on that has cut into his withers, was left in a stinking bed with disgusting waters was "fair" for the horse ? but you just have to keep having a dig don't you?? Their was obviously a reason the FL's were asked not to go to the yard, and their was no logic in whom was being banned. DIY's could ride out, lunge, bath but FL's could not visit... but your gut usually kicks in and you know if something is off and it was.

My remark was general and not addressed to any one specific person.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Really, your posts have been aimed at me for much of this thread Many folk do not bother to post on posts that you are involved in because of you and your bashing. I have had over 10 PM's telling me to take no notice of you, and had several more saying they agree with what I am going through but do not feel emotionally strong enough to voice there opinion as you are getting quite a reputation of not only shutting down posts because of your pretty single minded opinions, but you are getting quite the reputation of being a bully. I would put it in "bold and itallics" but I still will not reduce myself to your level.

 

[tristar]

Doubtless I'll be slated for this but if this goes on for the estimated 6 months then I'm going to have to consider riding part of essential care. YO usually works miracles by keeping M's weight down but she needs exercise on top, without the exercise she'll likely come down with lami (EMS) or have to spend the summer locked in her stable. It's a small yard (7 full liveries, no DIY) and I'd be the only one visiting or riding regularly. Two of our hacking routes are usually deserted with no contact with gates or fences so we could stick to them.

And before I'm accused of making excuses please feel free to look at my posting history where you can read all about my battles with her weight and fear of laminitis. We have tried *everything* and the only combo that works is hard work, a muzzle, and a bare field.

hope you can work something out

 

[stormox]

Winters so you really think that my horse being left with a rug on that has cut into his withers, was left in a stinking bed with disgusting waters was "fair" for the horse ? but you just have to keep having a dig don't you?? Their was obviously a reason the FL's were asked not to go to the yard, and their was no logic in whom was being banned. DIY's could ride out, lunge, bath but FL's could not visit... but your gut usually kicks in and you know if something is off and it was.

I dont think its 'obviously a reason why FLs were asked not to go to the yard' at all. No full liveries are allowed on any yard at the moment under government legislaiton, as they arent sole carer of the horse, whilst DIY liveries are.
But I also feel for YOs who suddenly get a load of full liveries to do, having been a yard owner myself its absolute minimum 1 1/2 hrs work per horse just providing basic mucking out, rugs feed and turnout with pooh picking. About 10 hours a week, minimum wage... you do the sums!!

 

[Winters100]

Really, your posts have been aimed at me for much of this thread Many folk do not bother to post on posts that you are involved in because of you and your bashing. I have had over 10 PM's telling me to take no notice of you, and had several more saying they agree with what I am going through but do not feel emotionally strong enough to voice there opinion as you are getting quite a reputation of not only shutting down posts because of your pretty single minded opinions, but you are getting quite the reputation of being a bully. I would put it in "bold and itallics" but I still will not reduce myself to your level.

You over and over again wrote that you would not mind the restrictions if they also applied to other owners who were on DIY. Then you attacked them, saying that if they could not afford FL how would they afford a vets bill. This was the issue that I, and many others, had with what you wrote.

If your yard was providing sub-standard care that is a completely different issue, and one which you have correctly addressed by finding a yard which will hopefully meet your expectations.

Feel free to use bold or italics as you see fit, it does not concern me in the slightest.

I stand by my view that we should all be keeping any visits to our horses or anywhere else to the bare necessities, this is necessary in order to limit the number of countless deaths that we are going to see in the coming weeks.

 

[flying_high]

Teapot - everything is going to change as we know it, and whilst i understand some of your thoughts to have one set of folk spending hours at the yard and another group being banned at the same yard, in the same barns, using the same fields and muck fork and being allowed to ride out, it does not make sense, unless they are hiding something. It was obvious after my arriving on the yard to day that basic care in the terms of the horse is still alive were just about being met, a dirty bed is one thing, water buckets that had rings round and dirty yellow water in them and a rubbed wither and clots of hair does not mean they were getting basic care, which i was still paying full whack for. No wonder they do not want the FL's on the yard. I have posted pictures to my friends on the full livery yard and a few rather difficult questions are being asked by many of them.

The yard still has full staff, so what was the excuse ?

None. My yard is closed to liveries, but are sharing regular videos and photos of the 30 odd horses on facebook, so owners can see they are happy, healthy and well.

 

[Gingerwitch]

You over and over again wrote that you would not mind the restrictions if they also applied to other owners who were on DIY. Then you attacked them, saying that if they could not afford FL how would they afford a vets bill. This was the issue that I, and many others, had with what you wrote.

If your yard was providing sub-standard care that is a completely different issue, and one which you have correctly addressed by finding a yard which will hopefully meet your expectations.

Feel free to use bold or italics as you see fit, it does not concern me in the slightest.

I stand by my view that we should all be keeping any visits to our horses or anywhere else to the bare necessities, this is necessary in order to limit the number of countless deaths that we are going to see in the coming weeks.

Yes I did write that i was not happy with DIY's being allowed to be on the yard for any amount of time, riding out and bathing, when the FL''s were not, I could not see why when using the same fields, tools, muck heap etc. The comment about affording a vet bill was from folk saying they could not afford to be on livery for 3 weeks, so it is a simple question if you cannot afford 3 weeks livery if you were ill, broke a leg or your horse had a massive vet bill was a sensible question.

Winters you have taken it way to far, ramming down your opinion of how we should be behaiving, you are not the police thank god and others are allowed opinions. On several occasions by other posters you have been told how offensive your bold, italics are, but you still carry on with this very rude behaviour.

 

[Gingerwitch]

None. My yard is closed to liveries, but are sharing regular videos and photos of the 30 odd horses on facebook, so owners can see they are happy, healthy and well.

Hi Flying high, I am sure however if you had DIY's on your yard you would not have been allowing unlimited access and telling them to have one end of the day contact and no riding, as you are obviously a reasoned and considerate YO

 

[Gingerwitch]

I dont think its 'obviously a reason why FLs were asked not to go to the yard' at all. No full liveries are allowed on any yard at the moment under government legislaiton, as they arent sole carer of the horse, whilst DIY liveries are.
But I also feel for YOs who suddenly get a load of full liveries to do, having been a yard owner myself its absolute minimum 1 1/2 hrs work per horse just providing basic mucking out, rugs feed and turnout with pooh picking. About 10 hours a week, minimum wage... you do the sums!!

Hi Stormox, nothing form the FL side had changed, still full staff, still the same number of horses, so nothing had changed. If the yard had been locked down and they had had another 20 horses to look after then I would have simply said to turn mine out overnight with a rug on. The quote "obviously a reason why FL;s were asked not to go to the yard" was because they are not doing the work they have been paid to do, this was obvious by the state of the stables and the reason i have contacted my fellow FL's, some not all, and sent the photo's of the state of there horses stables, they need to know and the yard is not a cheap one.

 

[stormox]

Hi Stormox, nothing form the FL side had changed, still full staff, still the same number of horses, so nothing had changed. If the yard had been locked down and they had had another 20 horses to look after then I would have simply said to turn mine out overnight with a rug on. The quote "obviously a reason why FL;s were asked not to go to the yard" was because they are not doing the work they have been paid to do, this was obvious by the state of the stables and the reason i have contacted my fellow FL's, some not all, and sent the photo's of the state of there horses stables, they need to know and the yard is not a cheap one.

The way the horses on full livery are looked after, either before oe after the loxkdown, has nothing to do with whether DIY liveries are allowed up or not really.
Its a problem between you and the yard owner and you have solved it by moving.

 

[Upthecreek]

The restrictions on travelling, where we can go and for what reasons and social distancing when we do go out have all been imposed to slow down the spread of coronavirus to enable the NHS to cope with the numbers requiring treatment in hospital. In terms of spreading the virus of course you can argue that people in the countryside visiting their horses at livery yards is not as high risk as people in towns going to gyms or shopping centres, but the problem is you can't have one set of rules for some people and a different set of rules for others. Whether it's fair or not the only reason people should be going to see their horse is if they are it's care provider and it is therefore essential that they do so. If the care is not being adequately provided by the care provider (if that is not you) and you don't trust them to look after your horse that is a different issue entirely. Notwithstanding the current situation, what would happen in 'normal life' if you were on holiday or ill or unable to get to the yard for whatever reason? Presumably you would entrust care to the Yard Owner or yard staff?

I wouldn't keep my horses somewhere that I could not be confident they were being cared for in line with my expectations, regardless of whether I was able to 'check up' or not. Personally I won't be seeing mine for 12 weeks and I have no concerns about their welfare. I know they will get the care and attention they need and they will both be fine. I am lucky that neither has special requirements and they are enjoying a holiday turned out with their shoes off (which most competition horses and hunters do every year). I have asked that their weight is closely monitored due to the time of year, but I didn't really need to ask because I know it will be. I am being sent photos and videos every so often and I know the YO will contact me immediately if there are any problems.

If the risk is removed or substantially mitigated provided that two metre social distancing is strictly maintained then what is the point in any of the restrictions that the government has put in place? If you subscribe to that logic everyone could pretty much carry on as before as long as people don't go within two metres of anyone else. And now they are saying two metres probably isn't far enough

As for what will happen if this situation continues for a prolonged period of time, I can't envisage that those with horses on full livery will get to see them until restrictions are also lifted on movement of people in towns.

 

[Leo Walker]

I have had over 10 PM's

Course you have ???? I've had over 20 ???

 

[Gingerwitch]

Course you have ???? I've had over 20 ???

Well we all know how full of crap you are, one moment its poor me, poor me, i am so frightened of getting anything and the next you getting the yard owners kids to drive you pony, and nearly let them run it in to the fence, so who really gives a stuff of what you have got to say ?

 

[Leo Walker]

Well we all know how full of crap you are, one moment its poor me, poor me, i am so frightened of getting anything and the next you getting the yard owners kids to drive you pony, and nearly let them run it in to the fence, so who really gives a stuff of what you have got to say ?

Aww, now that's not very nice of you is it? If only I cared that a nasty lady was mean to me on the internet as shes an entitled dick ??

 

[be positive]

Winters so you really think that my horse being left with a rug on that has cut into his withers, was left in a stinking bed with disgusting waters was "fair" for the horse ? but you just have to keep having a dig don't you?? Their was obviously a reason the FL's were asked not to go to the yard, and their was no logic in whom was being banned. DIY's could ride out, lunge, bath but FL's could not visit... but your gut usually kicks in and you know if something is off and it was.

That is not acceptable on any level, if YO's shut to liveries they must provide a decent level of care and not suddenly start to cut corners or in the other example profiteer from the situation, this is a time for everyone to do their bit to help the country as a whole it is not always going to be fair and suit everyone, some much needed common sense is required which is sadly lacking at times.

 

[criso]

I dont think its 'obviously a reason why FLs were asked not to go to the yard' at all. No full liveries are allowed on any yard at the moment under government legislaiton, as they arent sole carer of the horse, whilst DIY liveries are.

There is no govt. legislation that says anything about full liveries not being allowed on yards. We can argue about what is sensible and what we consider essential care and whether we should be riding at all (FL or DIY) but we should not infer specifics that do not exist. Different organisations have offered some recommendations but these are not legislation.

From the govt site the only mention of not visiting livery yards is if you have symptoms.

From the FAQs

3. Can I walk my dog / look after my horse?

Yes – provided it is alone or with members of your household.

If you have symptoms

If you have a horse in livery, you must not visit them whilst you are self-isolating. You should contact your yard manager or vet to make suitable welfare arrangements.

if you do no have symptoms

You may leave your house to exercise once a day and you should combine this with leaving your house to provide care for your horse or livestock.


Meanwhile on my yard it's still at the other extreme. One person's Dad is a bit bored so coming up with his daughter when she rides in the morning and has offered to finish off at the end of the day so a second visit from both. Yard manager has jumped at the chance to do less but still get paid.

Problem is now my feeds are not being done properly, I need medication added to feed but I make it really easy so I premix everything, put it into daily pots and all that needs to happen is when doing the feed, you tip half the pot into each. That's not happening. I have raised it for the second time now but if doesn't happen tomorrow I will need to go up every day to do the evening feed.

So we've gone from 1 person maybe coming up once in the week to ride before covid 19 to 2 people going up twice a day. If I have to go up that's a person visiting 5 times instead of 2.

 

[EllenJay]

This thread is taking a really nasty turn. GW - I think you need to calm down - obviously YOUR yard was doing a disservice, that doesn't mean that other yards are doing the same.

On a mixed yard the YO needs to reduce the amount of people coming through. They have 2 choices - either A) ban everyone, and charge the DIY's a full livery price, or b) ban the FL as their horses are being looked after and keep the DIY on reduced hours.
Neither of these options will please everyone, but these are exceptional circumstances.

I have 2 horses. My main riding horse is on FL - so the best I can do is drive to his field and hope he comes over for a cuddle, whilst expecting the yard to look after him to their usual high standards.
My 2nd boy is on retirement livery - and due to the lockdown, and his issues have put a DNR on him. I fully expect that the last visit I had with him was actually my final visit - but once again I completely trust the YO to do their best.

 

[Upthecreek]

Whilst we are all entitled to our opinions and feelings are obviously running high, let’s be grown ups and refrain from personally attacking and insulting each other. It’s not on.

 

[SO1]

I think what this thread highlights is that if you are on part or full livery the importance of being able to trust the people looking after your horse when you are not there. It must be soul destroying being banned from the yard & suspecting your horse is not being cared for properly in your absence. I am sure there will be yards that take advantage of the owners not being there to check things.

This is unprecedented circumstances. Guidance is open to interpretation, some people are scared, some people don't know what to do. I expect if it looks like it is going to go on for longer than 3 weeks & deaths are not spiraling out of control then maybe then it might be time for FL yards to put in place something to allow owners to come & check their horses occasionally even if it is only half an hour once a week.

Part livery is perhaps more tricky because of the exercise element for some horses is an essential part of their care especially if they are prone to weight gain & on decent grazing. If a horse is put at risk of laminitis due to no exercise options then that becomes a serious welfare issue if you are banned from yard & no exercise if
yard does not offer you any exercise options.

 

[Pippity]

On a mixed yard the YO needs to reduce the amount of people coming through. They have 2 choices - either A) ban everyone, and charge the DIY's a full livery price, or b) ban the FL as their horses are being looked after and keep the DIY on reduced hours.
Neither of these options will please everyone, but these are exceptional circumstances.

Third option: Ban everyone, and give DIYs the option of their horse being turned out 24/7, and given daily checks in the field without extra charge.